First, get the mule's attention

[From Bill Powers 950630.2130 MDT)]

Martin Taylor (950630.1730) --

     Most behavioural scientists, of whatever stripe, are interested in
     finding out how organisms work. If you explicitly say that you are
     interested only in the environmental part of the control loop, and
     that what goes on inside the organism is "Any Old Control System
     That Works," then you have asserted that what you do will be of no
     interest.

Most behavioral scientists would lose interest even faster if I
presented a paper showing how the internal part of the control loop
works. They would say "What control loop?" If they don't understand that
behavior is control, why would they be interested in a model of how
control works?

     In my years on CSG-L, I have not previously observed you to be
     uninterested in what goes on inside the organism. I think you once
     wrote a book with some suggestions about what might be going on in
     there. But if one take's Rick's correct comment at face value, one
     is led directly to the proposition that to determine the internal
     structure of a perceptual control system is impossible, and that
     anyone who tries to do so is a fool on a par with the inventors of
     perpetual motion machines and angle trisectors.

Since you know that I am interested in what goes on inside the organism
and have constructed a number of working models of said insides, why do
you make such silly comments? I am interesting in seeing many things
done that I don't believe will be done in my lifetime. Before PCT will
make any general impression, thousands of scientists must understand why
we must look on behavior as a process of control, and what that means in
terms of observable relationships.

···

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Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 950704 14:30]

Bill Powers 950630.2130 MDT)

    But if one take's Rick's correct comment at face value, one
    is led directly to the proposition that to determine the internal
    structure of a perceptual control system is impossible, and that
    anyone who tries to do so is a fool on a par with the inventors of
    perpetual motion machines and angle trisectors.

Since you know that I am interested in what goes on inside the organism
and have constructed a number of working models of said insides, why do
you make such silly comments?

Because I referred to Rick Marken (950629.1845):

The causal relationship
between o and d is (approximately) the inverse of the feedback function,
h, relating o to q; it does not reflect a direct connection between o and
d and it does not reveal anything about the nature of the organism
that is controlling a perception of q (see Powers, Science, 1973).

"It does not reveal anything about the nature of the organism" sounds
very like "to determine the internal structure of a perceptual control
system is impossible," at least to my ear.

Incidentally, it IS possible to read one or two paragraphs of the
referenced Science article in the way Rick does; but I would not read
the main body of the article that way, nor, in context, those specific
paragraphs. I don't know how you really intended them.

Most behavioral scientists would lose interest even faster if I
presented a paper showing how the internal part of the control loop
works. They would say "What control loop?" If they don't understand that
behavior is control, why would they be interested in a model of how
control works?

If they can't see how control works, why should they believe you when you
say something ilustrates control? Most people are much more convinced when
they understand something than when it is presented to them as magic.

Anyway, it's a real non-sequitur from my argument against which you seem
to be intending to comment. My point was and is that we all want to
investigate the organism, and to do so effectively one must concentrate
on the details of how control fails, not on the degree to which it succeeds.
Rick's statement emphasises that point.

Again: Happy Independence Day to the American traitors to the Crown!

Vive la Reine!

Martin