free will, feedforward, misc.

[From Jeff Vancouver 940718]

Well, getting to my office once a week certainly puts me behind
the times. I can only skim the posts. Several posts where
RE: Replies to Paul and Jeff, but were actually only to Paul.
Please be careful, the subject headings on one way I reduce
information overload. Incidently, Paul, glad to see a kindred
spirit on the net. Our kindred is not in our professions (I am a
psychologist), but in our message (seek similarities with others,
not differences).

Ironically, to seek that goal I am still seeking to understand
some of the differences. Tom [940711.1655] thanks for the post
regarding feedforward, it helped somewhat. But I am beginning to
worry that Locke is right, or we are arguing semantics.

You said "Carrying an umbrella when I leave the house after
hearing a weather report that predicts rain is present-time
perceptual control, not feedforward." Does it matter if the
weather report was given that morning or the night before?
Surely you are not saying the perception of impending rain,
compared to a reference signal would produce a "get umbrella"
output. Instead, you are saying the weather report triggers a
memory of the perception of walking in the rain which is compared
with a desire not to get wet to produce the output "get an
umbrella when you are going out." The use of a memory store, an
not real time perceptions is what I mean by feedforward.

Bill P. [940711.2115] says "You can't plan actions; you can only
plan the perceivable consequences of actions." and later "All
you can do is plan _goals_, and leave it up to your control
systems to bring them about in real-time perception, dealing with
the world as it actually is, in all its detail."

This is exactly what I mean by feedforward. We do not propagate
the planning too far down the hierarchy. Such detail would get
us into the trouble of over specifying a situation that is too
variable. In a private post from Charles Tucker, he seemed to be
saying that Bill P. has a precise definition for feedforward that
1) requires the propagation and 2) is therefore not relevant. He
suggests using the term planning. How does this sound?

P.S. That the plan are goals (reference signals), not actions is
often, though not always missed by cognitive psychologists.

Back to Tom. You said you would address the rest of my questions
after fixing your tux, but I never saw a followup. Did I miss
something?

Marken [940711.2200]
on the feedforward question you say:
"the actions that will compensate for disturbances cannot (and
need not) be anticipated."

I say that we (complex systems) need not, cannot completely, but
can grossly anticipate disturbances. The fundamental issue is
the role of conscious processing in humans. I am trying to say
that complex systems use anticipatory mechanisms to more
effectively maintain their essential (intrinsic) and controlled
(perceptual) variables. Further, I am saying that conscious
processes are heavily involved in that process. What role does
conscious processes have in PCT?

As I reread some of Locke and other psychologists I see the issue
of free will raised as central to their problem with PCT. They
often go too far - action is a function of conscious will. Do
you take the other extreme - action is random? Locke seems to
think you do. I think the answer is in between. Action is
indeterminable, but related to the perceptions one is
controlling. This moves the free will debate to the question of
will over perceptions controlled. I have no idea where PCT
stands here (I certainly have my own ideas).

I certainly agree with you Marken [940711.2200] "Conventional
psychology and PCT ... are talking PAST one another." You say
because they don't study control. Humor me, I say they do
sometimes study it, just not always exactly like you. I say a
difference is the emphasis on an individual's concept of their
place in the world versus the actual hierarchy. The concept is a
perverse rendition particularly because it rarely uses a PCT
image. But, psychologist, me among them, say that concept is
relevant to how they act _and_ perceive. I think some in PCT
think that as well. Again I ask, where does PCT stand on the
self-concept?

By the way, the humor in your tenure post was the vacillation on
the causes of paper acceptance. Reread it, given the right frame
of mind you too may find it funny. I do appreciate the thought,
though.

I did have a strong objection to your calling Carver & Scheier
liars. The may have been mistaken, but not intentionally so (at
least, I would give them the benefit of the doubt). Using a word
like "lying" is inappropriate. I don't buy that you are just
talking among yourselves. As Dag just noted, you have a number
of lurkers. This is a public net. Beside, _I_ expect civility.

On precision:

Your faith in the TEST is great. Yet, even Runkel said it is
hard to determine controlled perceptions during reorganization.
There may be other ways. PCTers need not pursue them, but can't
they let others without saying it is useless?

On the E.coli model:

Thanks Dag, I got the simulations. I have run most.
Unfortunately, the E.coli, where you "showed" reinforcement does
not work confirms my straw model argument. Reinforcement is
operationalized as "use the last turn that resulted in denser
foodstuffs" according to your documentation. Why not remember
the last vector. Why not remember the last set of vectors? I am
not proficient in this type of modeling, but your model does not
convince you have given reinforcement theory a fair shot. (I am
not bring it up to argue for reinforcement theory, but to note
the use straw models).

[Bill Leach 940707.23:28]
You say: "I don't think that anyone on the net has a problem with
the idea that people can control more than one operation at a
time as long as it is physically possible to do so. Though I
don't see 'an issue' here between PCT and any other 'model'."

The issue is one of cognitive resources not physical. Some
psychological models are concerned with the limitation of our
cognitive processes/attentional resources. This is why I want to
understand the role of cognitive processes in PCT. BTW, the
distinction between cognitive and conscious not always made in
these models, but I don't want to revisit that either, unless it
is relevant to the question at hand.

in conclusion:
I have printed a number of the posts between Paul and the PCTers.
I will try to read them before my next visit to my office. I
like the model. It gives a good reference for discussion. For
example, is D what psychologists try to study? Here's a juice
one, if numerous individuals F4's produce Hs that represents F in
nearly identical ways and given that F3 is constant across people
can I model (in Bandura's sense) someone's D to affect H, which I
think is affecting F? The point of the question is that many of
the components in the model can be ignored without much cost to
predictive ability. I am going out to shoot myself now :slight_smile:

Later

Jeff

From Tom Bourbon [940721.1803]

Still catching up after the wedding.

[From Jeff Vancouver 940718]

. . .

Ironically, to seek that goal I am still seeking to understand
some of the differences. Tom [940711.1655] thanks for the post
regarding feedforward, it helped somewhat. But I am beginning to
worry that Locke is right, or we are arguing semantics.

I'm afraid I don't catch your allusion to Locke. I know his work, but /i
don't catch what you mean when you say you "worry that Locke is right?"
Right about what? Whay does whatever he said worry you?

You said "Carrying an umbrella when I leave the house after
hearing a weather report that predicts rain is present-time
perceptual control, not feedforward." Does it matter if the
weather report was given that morning or the night before?

Not a bit, except that the accuracy of weather reports drops off
exponentially with time! Carrying the umbrella is present-time behavior, no
matter how long ago I heard the weather report.

Surely you are not saying the perception of impending rain,
compared to a reference signal would produce a "get umbrella"
output.

I'm not? Maybe I am; maybe I'm not. I _am_ curious about why you wouldn't
want me to say that -- why my saying that would perturb you. Can you let
me know?

Instead, you are saying the weather report triggers a
memory of the perception of walking in the rain which is compared
with a desire not to get wet to produce the output "get an
umbrella when you are going out."

But aren't you saying here that, if there is a discrepancy when present-time
perceptions are compared with present-time reference signals, then there
will be a change in actions? That was what I was saying -- it's all in the
present. The past does not exist now; the future does not exist now; now
exists now.

The use of a memory store, an
not real time perceptions is what I mean by feedforward.

Oops. Where did feedforward come from? "Memories" are present-time
"things," aren't they? And so are peerceptions, and comparisons, and
discrepancies (error signals) and actions. Maybe it would help me
undertsand you better if you were to give me your definition of
"feedforward."

Bill P. [940711.2115] says "You can't plan actions; you can only
plan the perceivable consequences of actions." and later "All
you can do is plan _goals_, and leave it up to your control
systems to bring them about in real-time perception, dealing with
the world as it actually is, in all its detail."

This is exactly what I mean by feedforward.

This example doesn't help me very much, as a clue abobut your definition of
feedforward. I see Bill talking about present-time "planning" of the
expected results of unplanned actions. I plan to experience some dinner soon
-- I've had nothing to eat since breakfast, which was long ago. I "plan" to
experience myself logging off, locking the office, taking the elevator down,
waiting for my wife to stop by on her way home, and so on. All of these
imaginings are right now; all of my actions (which I cannot plan in advance)
will be happening "now;" all of my percpertions will be controlled "now."

We do not propagate
the planning too far down the hierarchy.

I don't think we propagate a plan for _actions_ at all.

Such detail would get
us into the trouble of over specifying a situation that is too
variable.

The variability is precisely the problem. :wink:

In a private post from Charles Tucker, he seemed to be
saying that Bill P. has a precise definition for feedforward that
1) requires the propagation and 2) is therefore not relevant. He
suggests using the term planning. How does this sound?

Planning perceptions, yes. Planning actions, no.

P.S. That the plan are goals (reference signals), not actions is
often, though not always missed by cognitive psychologists.

I'll drink to that! Or maybe I'll eat a few bites of dinner to that.

Back to Tom. You said you would address the rest of my questions
after fixing your tux, but I never saw a followup. Did I miss
something?

I'm still looking for them. I'm not yet caught up on the past week of mail.

Marken [940711.2200]
on the feedforward question you say:
"the actions that will compensate for disturbances cannot (and
need not) be anticipated."

I say that we (complex systems) need not, cannot completely, but
can grossly anticipate disturbances.

Jeff, _why_ do you say that? Can you give some examples we could model,
quantitatively? How would we test for whether a person is doing what you
say here?

As I reread some of Locke and other psychologists I see the issue
of free will raised as central to their problem with PCT. They
often go too far - action is a function of conscious will. Do
you take the other extreme - action is random?

Did you ever see anyone (PCT modelesr) say action is random? (You might
have -- I'm just asking.) If so, what were the conditions under which they
said actions would be random -- or at least _appear to be_ random, to an
observer?

Locke seems to
think you do.

Can you quote Locke on that? I have a small sampling of his writing and I'd
like to see if I have that quote, or if I can locate it for my file of
mistaken ideas about PCT.

I think the answer is in between. Action is
indeterminable, but related to the perceptions one is
controlling.

You are onto an important theme here. Indeterminable from whose perspective?
That is the crux of the metter.

I certainly agree with you Marken [940711.2200] "Conventional
psychology and PCT ... are talking PAST one another." You say
because they don't study control. Humor me, I say they do
sometimes study it, just not always exactly like you.

Again, all you need to do to convince us on this point is show us, chapter
and verse, where they themselves say they study the phenomenon in which
individuals control their own perceptions and, incidentally, control
variables in their environments. I think Rick is saying there isn't
evidence that psychologists study that phenomenon.

I say a
difference is the emphasis on an individual's concept of their
place in the world versus the actual hierarchy. The concept is a
perverse rendition particularly because it rarely uses a PCT
image. But, psychologist, me among them, say that concept is
relevant to how they act _and_ perceive. I think some in PCT
think that as well. Again I ask, where does PCT stand on the
self-concept?

Rick and Mary have already answere you on this point. I concur.

Time for dinner! Now, what was that plan? First twitch the extensors
attached to that bone over there ... . ;-))

Later,

Tom