[From Bill Powers (2008.06.30.1025 MDT)]
Here is a link to the writings of a guy named Shirky. I think this may be a way for PCT to be shared with everyone.
http://www.shirky.com/herecomeseverybody/
Best,
Bill P.
[From Lloyd Klinedinst (2008.06.30.3:43 PM CDT)]
Very interesting writer. Is this reference in anticipation of a shift in how CSG conferences will take place?
Lloyd
···
On Jun 30, 2008, at 11:27 AM, Bill Powers wrote:
[From Bill Powers (2008.06.30.1025 MDT)]
Here is a link to the writings of a guy named Shirky. I think this may be a way for PCT to be shared with everyone.
Best,
Bill P.
Lloyd Klinedinst - lloydk@klinedinst.com
10 Dover Lane - Villa Ridge, MO 63089-2001
Home: (636) 451-3232 FAX: (636)451-3232 Mobile: (314)-609-5571
[From Bill Powers (2008.06.30.1545 MDT)]
Lloyd Klinedinst (2008.06.30.3:43 PM CDT) --
Very interesting writer. Is this reference in anticipation of a shift in how CSG conferences will take place?
Possibly. I am going to ask for a discussion at the upcoming meeting about the future of the (US) CSG. As there are only 15 people coming this year (which includes four of David G.'s colleagues and thus only 11 past members of the CSG), it seems that the urgency of having an annual meeting has diminished considerably. Having meetings for the sake of having meetings is not my cup of tea either.
Listening to Shirky made me realize that we need some goals beyond PCT. How about peace on earth, good will toward everybody? How about a practical substitute for the criminal justice system (i.e., Glenn Smith, Shelley Roy)? How about school system societies that work (i.e., Perry/Fred Good, Ed Ford)? How about do-it-yourself MOL taught to children? How about an economic theory based on the way real people work? How about taking this sick old planet and pumping some real life back into it?
I think most of us pretty much have the concepts of PCT in our toolkits. Now what should we build?
Best,
Bill P.
[Lloyd Klinedinst (2008.06.30.6:16 PM CDT)]
Sounds like an ambitious but needed agenda for us, each and all.
Wouldn’t it be great to have the PCT equivalent of those BuildABear events, activities, projects and locations?
I do look forward to seeing at least 11 of us this July.
Lloyd
···
On Jun 30, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Bill Powers wrote:
[From Bill Powers (2008.06.30.1545 MDT)]
Lloyd Klinedinst (2008.06.30.3:43 PM CDT) –
Very interesting writer. Is this reference in anticipation of a shift in how CSG conferences will take place?
Possibly. I am going to ask for a discussion at the upcoming meeting about the future of the (US) CSG. As there are only 15 people coming this year (which includes four of David G.'s colleagues and thus only 11 past members of the CSG), it seems that the urgency of having an annual meeting has diminished considerably. Having meetings for the sake of having meetings is not my cup of tea either.
Listening to Shirky made me realize that we need some goals beyond PCT. How about peace on earth, good will toward everybody? How about a practical substitute for the criminal justice system (i.e., Glenn Smith, Shelley Roy)? How about school system societies that work (i.e., Perry/Fred Good, Ed Ford)? How about do-it-yourself MOL taught to children? How about an economic theory based on the way real people work? How about taking this sick old planet and pumping some real life back into it?
I think most of us pretty much have the concepts of PCT in our toolkits. Now what should we build?
Best,
Bill P.
Lloyd Klinedinst - lloydk@klinedinst.com
10 Dover Lane - Villa Ridge, MO 63089-2001
Home: (636) 451-3232 FAX: (636)451-3232 Mobile: (314)-609-5571
[From Dick Robertson, 2008,07.02.2040CDT]
[From Bill Powers (2008.06.30.1545 MDT)]
Listening to Shirky made me realize that we need some goals
beyond PCT. How about peace on earth, good will toward everybody? How
about a practical substitute for the criminal justice system (i.e.,
Glenn Smith, Shelley Roy)? How about school system societies that work
(i.e., Perry/Fred Good, Ed Ford)? How about do-it-yourself MOL
taughtto children? How about an economic theory…
Well, I don’t have any projects of that magnitude to offer, but I did come up with perhaps a small contribution in a letter to the editoryof "The Progressive (July, 2008, The New Tycoonery)
in response to a review of two new books by critics of the current governance (or lack of it) of our country. The review contained statements like the following:
Liberalism failed to address the conundrum of the military-industrial complex, and when it did it was too late Liberalisms abandonment of a more robust role for government in controlling the operations of the free market and its currying favor with the business community began long before Ronal Reagan .
In my letter I “came from” PCT without proselytizing. I believed most readers would feel it made sense when I said the villains in the piece could be understood in terms of controlling their environments in what they perceived as their best interestsas any of us would do. I felt most readers would grasp the idea of controlling ones circumstances to ones best advantage easily enough. I also was thus able to avoid attributing active agency to concepts like Liberalism.
I wonder whether we might have some useful effects by writing letters to editors about journalism that calls for commentin which we take for granted that readers will understand when we attribute active agency to real entities (like people) controlling for perceptions they value?
Best,
Dick R
[From Rick Marken (2008.07.02.2010)]
Dick Robertson (2008,07.02.2040CDT])
Well, I don't have any projects of that magnitude to offer, but I did come
up with perhaps a small contribution in a letter to the editoryof "The
Progressive (July, 2008, The New Tycoonery)
I'd love to see that letter, if possible. It would be nice if it and
the reviews to which it is a reply were on the web. If not, could you
can a copy for us.
I do think Bill's idea is a great one, though I'm pretty sure that
we'd get so very different "PCT" ideas about how to make the world
(and schools and economies) better. Be fun to see what these different
ideas are, though.
Best
Rick
···
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
[From Bill Powers (2008.07.03.1144 MDT)]
Dick Robertson, 2008,07.02.2040CDT --
Well, I don't have any projects of that magnitude to offer, but I did come up with perhaps a small contribution in a letter to the editor of "The Progressive (July, 2008, The New Tycoonery)
Letters to the editor are fine, I've written a few myself. But that's not the sort of thing I'm thinking of. Nor is thinking of things that other people ought to do, or as Rick Marken put it, coming up with "different "PCT" ideas about how to make the world (and schools and economies) better." I'm talking about actually doing something ourselves, not just coming up with things that somebody else might do. I'm talking about making things happen, not getting someone else to do it. Who knows what to do any better than we do?
I don't know what is going to make things happen, but that's what I want to address. Maybe not this minute -- the next three weeks are going to be pretty full for me, and will be followed immediately by house-hunting and moving. But I'm trying to put the seed of the idea out where it can get a little sun (is that good for seeds?). Anyway, this is just to set some vibrations going and see if they build up or die out.
Here's another vibe: The Center for the Study of Living Control Systems. Roll that around in your forebrain for a while.
Best,
Bill P.
···
in response to a review of two new books by critics of the current governance (or lack of it) of our country. The review contained statements like the following:
�Liberalism failed to address the conundrum of the military-industrial complex, and when it did it was too late�Liberalism�s abandonment of a more robust role for government in controlling the operations of the free market and its currying favor with the business community began long before Ronal Reagan�.�
In my letter I "came from" PCT without proselytizing. I believed most readers would feel it made sense when I said the �villains� in the piece could be understood in terms of controlling their environments in what they perceived as their best interests�as any of us would do. I felt most readers would grasp the idea of controlling one�s circumstances to one�s best advantage easily enough. I also was thus able to avoid attributing active agency to _concepts_ like �Liberalism.�
I wonder whether we might have some useful effects by writing letters to editors about journalism that calls for comment�in which we take for granted that readers will understand when we attribute active agency to real entities (like people) controlling for perceptions they value?
Best,Dick R
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from Dick Robertson, 2008.07.03.1455CDT]
[From Bill Powers (2008.07.03.1144 MDT)]
Dick Robertson, 2008,07.02.2040CDT –
Letters to the editor are fine, I’ve written a
few myself. But that’s not the sort of thing I’m
thinking of. Nor is thinking of things that other
people ought to do, or as Rick Marken put it,
coming up with “different “PCT” ideas about how
to make the world (and schools and economies)
better.” I’m talking about actually doing
something ourselves, not just coming up with
things that somebody else might do. I’m talking
about making things happen, not getting someone
else to do it. Who knows what to do any better than we do?
That’s good. I’m all for it. However, my thought about lots of letters to editors was in a way doing something too, namely, making it more familiar for people to hear comments on whatever issues in terms of people controlling their circumstances. As this becomes a more common way of talking about things I’m hoping more ordinary people will start wondering: “Well, just how does this controlling work?”
Here’s another vibe: The Center for the Study of
Living Control Systems. Roll that around in your forebrain for a
while.
Sound good to me.
Best,
Dick R
[From Bill Powers (2008.07.03.1413 MDT)]
my thought about lots of letters to editors was in a way doing something too, namely, making it more familiar for people to hear comments on whatever issues in terms of people controlling their circumstances. As this becomes a more common way of talking about things I'm hoping more ordinary people will start wondering: "Well, just how does this controlling work?"
Yes, and I don't argue against doing that. But I'm looking for something more direct. For example, starting an interactive web page on which (a) people can experience MOL sessions, and (b) we teach people how to do the method of levels with each other. This might be done with Skype or MSN Messenger. Anyone interested in managing that?
I tried once to start an MOL seminar with professional therapists in Durango. There were just two people interested and they didn't come back. But they had no idea who I was and I had no credentials. Also I didn't do a good presentation. You have credentials. That should help.
Back to the book.
Best,
Bill P.
Hello List Members,
Grace Gadsby communicating.
(A furtive lurker - although I have met a number of you !!)
I am new to the CSGnet - don’t know much about using it.
Your discussion re ‘spreading the wings’ of PCT is very timely for me.
I have the opportunity to teach a class of 10-11 year-olds
and want to use PCT as the theoretical base.
I have quite a bit of experience with RTP,
but want to use a more proactive approach.
After that I’d like to use the experience as a base for working
with and teaching a group of colleagues.
Any helpful hints please ?
Yours in anticipation.
Grace Gadsby
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU]** On Behalf Of** Robertson Richard
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:00 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: From Bill Powers: Shirky’s web page
From Dick Robertson, 2008.07.03.1455CDT]
[From Bill Powers (2008.07.03.1144 MDT)]
Dick Robertson, 2008,07.02.2040CDT –
Letters to the editor are fine, I’ve written a
few myself. But that’s not the sort of thing I’m
thinking of. Nor is thinking of things that other
people ought to do, or as Rick Marken put it,
coming up with “different “PCT” ideas about how
to make the world (and schools and economies)
better.” I’m talking about actually doing
something ourselves, not just coming up with
things that somebody else might do. I’m talking
about making things happen, not getting someone
else to do it. Who knows what to do any better than we do?That’s good. I’m all for it. However, my thought about lots of letters to editors was in a way doing something too, namely, making it more familiar for people to hear comments on whatever issues in terms of people controlling their circumstances. As this becomes a more common way of talking about things I’m hoping more ordinary people will start wondering: “Well, just how does this controlling work?”
Here’s another vibe: The Center for the Study of
Living Control Systems. Roll that around in your forebrain for a
while.Sound good to me.
Best,
Dick R
Upgrade your email with thousands of emoticons for free
Hello Grace !
If you really want to use more proactive approach instead of RTP, I think
you must quite progressive teacher. And I beleive you can make even more
progress, if you understand PCT as far as possible perfect.
By my opinion (it's not necessary that's the opinion of other members of CSG
net) PCT approach to schooling children, differ very much from RTP. In RTP
as far as I know the basis is that you threaten children with punishment if
they are not "good" or exclude too "disturbing" children from a classroom.
Understanding PCT gives you possibility to include these children in normal
school work, because you simply understand how these children are
functioning. If you don't understand something then you are afraid. If you
understand, you enjoy.
So my proposal is that you ask questions, and we'll try to answer youďż˝.:))
Or maybe you tell us what you know or what you already read about PCT, so
masters of PCT could advise you. You can also count on me, as I'm a teacher
by profession.
Regards,
Boris
Hi, Boris --
I'm definitely in favor of developing an approach to schoolroom behavior that is more closely aligned with PCT. However, by working with Ed Ford over many years, I've persuaded him to make the "punishment" aspect of his program as small as possible. He tells teachers not to speak of going to the RTC as punishment -- in fact, he now teaches that a student can request a pass to go to the RTC whenever the student feels a need to calm down or sort out feelings. Many students do this. Some students show the RTC to their parents on visitors night, telling them things like "This is where I go to get help." Ford no longer supports the idea of telling a student "I see you have chosen to go to the RTC". Instead, the teacher simply makes a rule that if there is a SECOND disruption, the student must go to the RTC. It is explained that the teacher has a right to teach, and the other students have a right to learn, so problems should be solved somewhere else. The RTC teachers are also told not to make the RTC assignment seem like punishment. The student is told to ask the RTC teacher whenever he or she wants to talk about what happened, but the teacher leaves the student alone otherwise. When the student returns to the classroom, the classrom teacher simply welcomes the student back. It takes some courage to let the student come to the RTC day after day (during the particular class that he was sent from) without pushing the student to solve the problem. The lack of pressure definitely helps the students decide what to do.
The main point of all this is to let the teacher teach without having to deal with discipline problems. This just about eliminates the yelling and screaming by teachers driven beyond their ability to handle the class. The whole school calms down. It may not be a perfect program, but it is an immense improvement over the way schools functioned previously!
What we're trying to achieve, I think, is mutual respect. The teachers respect the students' need to deal with their problems, and the students respect the teachers' right to do their job in peace and harmony. That's the reference condition: I'm sure there is more than one way to achieve it.
Best,
Bill
[From Dick Robertson, 2008.07.04.1500CDT]
[From Bill Powers (2008.07.03.1413 MDT)]
Yes, and I don’t argue against doing that. But I’m looking for
something more direct. For example, starting an interactive web
page on which (a) people can experience MOL sessions, and (b) we
teach people how to do the method of levels with each other. This
might be done with Skype or MSN Messenger. Anyone interested in managing that?
Would Tim or David manage it? I’d be glad to contribute, but I’m no longer as actively involved in therapy.
Best,
Dick R…
[From David Goldstein, (2008.07.04.2059 EDT)]
[From Dick Robertson, 2008.07.04.1500CDT]
[From Bill Powers (2008.07.03.1413 MDT)]
Dear Dick, Bill and listmates:
You may recall that I tried this before Skype or IM was around. I had
to type and so did the person. That was not the best circumstance under
which to do it, although people gained some benefit.
I would be willing to participate if we could make it into a research project.
David.
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
Robertson Richard
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: From Bill Powers: Shirky’s web page
[From Dick Robertson, 2008.07.04.1500CDT]
[From Bill Powers (2008.07.03.1413 MDT)]
Yes, and I don’t argue against doing that. But I’m looking for
something more direct. For example, starting an interactive web
page on which (a) people can experience MOL sessions, and (b) we
teach people how to do the method of levels with each other. This
might be done with Skype or MSN Messenger. Anyone interested in managing that?Would Tim or David manage it? I’d be glad to contribute, but I’m no longer as actively involved in therapy.
Best,
Dick R…