FW: FW: FW: Open access version




From: Richard Marken (rsmarken@gmail.com via csgnet Mailing List) csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:46 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Open access version

[Rick Marken 2018-05-24_13:40:16]

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 11:11 AM, “Boris Hartman” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

HB: All I wish is that you stop promoting RCT (Ricks Control Theory) and his mantra “Behavior is control”.

HB : There is a big difference between us Warren how we’ll read Bills’ work, since I understand how organisms function and you don’t. So it’s most probable that you’ll read Bills’ work much differently than I do. If you understand PCT then you’ll not use any more “Behavior is control” or anything else from Ricks behavioristic repertoar like :

HB : This a very good news Warren. So from now on we can expect that you’ll not use any more “Behavior is control” or any other Ricks’ behavioristic idea.

HB : Ricks’ work can’t be helpfull in regard of PCT because he doesn’t understand PCT. But it can be helpfull in regard of RCT and “Behavior is control”. In PCT we talk about “Control of perception”.

RM: Then I presume you will similarly chastise Bill Powers for using that forbidden phrase (“Behavior is control”), which he did use many, many times since that is the basic fact that requires an explanation in terms of PCT.

HB : Stop bullshitting Rick. Show first how does it look “many times” where Bill used this “forbiden phrase”. For every your example I’ll show 10 his examples which denyed existance of “Behavior is control”. With all his theory he proved that “output is not controlled” for what he used also physiological evidences.

But regardless of what he said once or twice you have to prove that you can control muscle tension so that we can be sure that “Behavior can be controlled”. So Ricky get on work and start digging for evidences. Words will not help.

You can go also through Bills literature if you think that you’ll find any evidences. You will not. But you’ll find evidences in Bills literature that “Behavior, output is not controlled”. And this is the fact.

RM : Here’s one example, as usual in a reply to Martin (who up until recently also rejected the idea that behavior is control until Tim Carey straightened him out):

HB : Of course I’ll critisize his statement if its real, because he is contraditcitng all his theoretical and practical and pisyiological evidences that are in majority. I cryiticized him also when he was alive. I don’t know where did you get this but you’ll have to find more evidences.

It’s also problem that Bill sometimes changed his mind. Gnerally his PCT way clearly proved and expressed in his central books : Behavior : The control of perception" and LCS III.

So “One Sparrow doesn’t bring Spring”. You’ll have to find more evidences.

But first you’ll have to prove that “Behavior is control”. So show me evidence that “Behavior is control” and that there is “Controlled Perceptual Variable” so that I can stop calling you a layer and manipulator. I need evidences Rick. E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E-S ….>

[From Bill Powers 950630.2130 MDT)]

Martin Taylor (950630.1730) –

MT: Most behavioural scientists, of whatever stripe, are interested in

finding out how organisms work. If you explicitly say that you are

interested only in the environmental part of the control loop, and

that what goes on inside the organism is "Any Old Control System

That Works," then you have asserted that what you do will be of no


BP: Most behavioral scientists would lose interest even faster if I

presented a paper showing how the internal part of the control loop

works. They would say “What control loop?” If they don’t understand that

behavior is control, why would they be interested in a model of how

control works?

RM: I am under no illusion that this will stop you lies any more than I think that any facts will stop Trump’s lies. But it is fascinating to see how you manage to not let these facts get in the way of your misguided campaign against me.

HB : Of course you should live under illusion that I’ll not stop calling you manipulator, because what you are doing is manipulation. Show me scientific evidences which I demand from you so that I can stop calling manipulator.

You are manipulator with Bills’ statements. We saw your last manipulation with “Rubber band” where you ugly misused Bill’s statements.

If it’s true that “Behavior is control” what you can’t prove it and Bill prove it in majority of his work, we have to see how did you come to consequence of “Behavior is control” so that there exist “Controlled Perceptual Variable” or CPV ??? That is your pure invention. And you want us to support that. Do you think we are idiots who will blindly follow your imaginational constructs ???

So campain against you continues until you prove that “Behavior is control” and that there is “Controlled Perceptual Variable” or CPV. And you have to prove that these senstences are in accordance to main work of Bill Powers which is represented with his diagram LCS III and definitions of control loop (B:CP). These are his central works.

So how statement “Behavior is control” fit into definitions of control loop (B:CP) and diagram (LCS III).


PCT Definitions of control loop :

Bill P (B:CP):

  1. CONTROL : Achievement and maintenance of a preselected state in the controlling system, through actions on the environment that also cancel the effects of disturbances.

Bill P (B:CP):

  1. OUTPUT FUNCTION : The portion of a system that converts the magnitude or state of a signal inside the system into a corresponding set of effects on the immediate environment of the system

Bill P (LCS III):…the output function shown in it’s own box represents the means this system has for causing changes in it’s environment.

Bill P (LCS III):

  1. FEED-BACK FUNCTION : The box represents the set of physical laws, properties, arrangements, linkages, by which the action of this system feeds-back to affect its own input, the controlled variable. That’s what feed-back means : it’s an effect of a system’s output on it’s own input.

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1. INPUT FUNCTION : The portion of a system that receives signals or stimuli from outside the system, and generates a perceptual signal that is some function of the received signals or stimuli.

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1. COMPARATOR : The portion of control system that computes the magnitude and direction of mismatch between perceptual and reference signal.

Bill P (B:CP)

  1. ERROR : The discrepancy between a perceptual signal and a reference signal, which drives a control system’s output function. The discrepancy between a controlled quantity and it’s present reference level, which causes observable behavior.

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1. ERROR SIGNAL : A signal indicating the magnitude and direction of error.


Or do you think your RCT is right ?

RCT (Ricks Control Theory) definition of control loop

  1. CONTROL : Keeping of some »aspect of outer environment« in reference state, protected (defended) from disturbances.

  2. OUTPUT FUNCTION : controlled effects (control of behavior) to outer environment so to keep some »controlled variable« in reference state

  3. FEED-BACK FUNCTION : »Control« of some »aspect of outer environment« in reference state.

  4. INPUT FUNCTION : produce »Controlled Perceptual Variable« or »Controlled Perception«, the perceptual correlate of »controlled q.i.«

  5. COMPARATOR : ???

  6. ERROR SIGNAL : ???


Best regards


Richard S. Marken

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
–Antoine de Saint-Exupery