I sent this a few days ago but it didn't appear on the CSGnet. I thought it
was sent in plain text not HTML. What happened?
···
----- Original Message -----
From: David Wolsk <davidwolsk@home.com>
To: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) <CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Clueless
from Bill P.
snipped
In an RTP classroom, the teacher might be
> controlling for the students' understanding the social system and
> supporting it by their actions -- for example, by answering the
questions
> honestly, and by going willingly to the RTC when they agree that is the
> appropriate step. The teacher might be trying to adjust his or her own
> attitudes to remove pressure from the students, in the hope that the
> students, appreciating this, will want to help make the classroom a
> pleasant, productive place. Certainly control is involved, but as always
it
> is control of perception, and the students' role may not be that of the
> manipulated party. It could be that the students and the teacher, when
all
> is going well, cooperate in controlling a number of social variables
that
> all involved have learned to perceive.
>
> This is a little more interesting than a mere choice between (1) and
(2).
>
I'm happy to see these possibilities FINALLY presented by Bill. It's
unfortunate that so much of what teachers are trained to do is establish
that they are in charge. The alternative approaches, often labelled as
co-operative or collaborative learning and learning communities, establish
that classroom behaviour is everyone's responsibility. Where I was
teaching
many years ago, the Free Gymnasium, in Copenhagen, the staff discovered
that
students tended to be quite harsh towards their fellow students not
pulling
their load. Many fruitful discussions resulted. RTP is a successful
adjustment to a system that would be better off with a more radical total
change to foster self-directed learning, learning how-to-learn and
metacognition. There are numerous examples of schools successfully
applying
these approaches ..... and have been for years.
David Wolsk
[From Bill Powers (2000.10.01.0715 MDT)]
From: David Wolsk <davidwolsk@home.com>
RTP is a successful
adjustment to a system that would be better off with a more radical total
change to foster self-directed learning, learning how-to-learn and
metacognition. There are numerous examples of schools successfully
applying these approaches ..... and have been for years.
RTP seems to work well within a very large school system that is slow to
change. It's presented as a "discipline" program, which probably makes it
easier to sell, but the discipline is not the get-tough approach that most
school administrators and teachers think of when they hear the word. It may
be somewhat easier to get a new program introduced in Denmark, a far
smaller country.
Best,
Bill P.
[From Rick Marken (2000.10.01.1520)]
Bill Powers (2000.10.01.0715 MDT)
RTP seems to work well within a very large school system that
is slow to change. It's presented as a "discipline" program,
which probably makes it easier to sell, but the discipline
is not the get-tough approach that most school administrators
and teachers think of when they hear the word.
It looks to me like you are doing exactly what you promised
Tom Bourbon you would _not_ do: making guesses about what's really
going on in the RTP program before visiting several RTP schools.
Unless you have visited some RTP schools in the last few weeks, I
don't see how you could know that the "discipline" in the RTP
program "...is not the get-tough approach that most school
administrators and teachers think of when they hear the word".
I agree with your assesmsent, by the way; the "discipline" in the
RTP program does not seem to be the get-tough kind. I base this
assessment on what I have read about the program and heard about
it at CSG meetings. But I feel free to make this assessment because
I never agreed that assessments of the program can only be based on
first hand observation of RTP schools. I believe it's possible to
make reasonable guesses about what is going on in the RTP program
based on what I hear and read from people who _are_ familiar
with the program. But you suggested that we not make this kind of
assessment any more. Have you changed your mind? Or is what you say
above _not_ an assessment of what is going on in the RTP program?
Best
Rick
···
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com
[From Bill Powers (2000.10.02.0141 MDT)]
Rick Marken (2000.10.01.1520)--
Bill Powers (2000.10.01.0715 MDT)
RTP seems to work well within a very large school system that
is slow to change. It's presented as a "discipline" program,
which probably makes it easier to sell, but the discipline
is not the get-tough approach that most school administrators
and teachers think of when they hear the word.
It looks to me like you are doing exactly what you promised
Tom Bourbon you would _not_ do: making guesses about what's really
going on in the RTP program before visiting several RTP schools.
I suppose you're right: I can no more justify praise of the RTP program
than criticism of it without having visited schools where it is working. If
its proponents reject criticism by those who know only what is said or
written by the proponents, then I suppose they should logically reject
favorable comments made on the same basis.
I still want to visit some RTP schools.
Best,
Bill P.