FW: Re: Insights into level 5 (?)

i.kurtzer (981102.1150EST)

[From Bill Powers (981102.-0725 MST)]

i.kurtzer (981101.2100EST)--

>We, the way that we have arranaged the hierarchy, yes.
>We have intensities below sensations. One the side, I have some
>reservations about Intensities at the
>lowest level..because A)all sensory tranducers are already
>functionally tuned to preferred stimuli so there is no reason to "build
>this up" from intensities B) i cannot think of any intensity I have
>noticed without it being already in the context of a sensation. So I

have

>seen "brighter" blues than other blues, but ALWAYS with blue..or green
>or whatnot, but never "bright" in absence of any sensation.

"Bright" is the name of a sensation. The name of the corresponding
intensity signal might be "lots of stimulation" without identifying the
modality.

Hmmm..That does seem strange to me. Lets say bright yellow and dim
yellow. So there are TWO sensations here as the above would imply? Its
seems far more reasonable that there is one sensation with two different
intensities.

Read Kofka, the old Gestalt psychologist. It
is possible to adopt a
viewpoint in which one is unable to say whether a stimulus was a flash or
light or a click of sound. He called the intensity level the "sensorium
commune."

There are cross-modal confusions and matchings..such as this tastes
very yellow..or that slowly bouncing blue ball should have a tuba chiming
to its bounces. But this does seem a very different situation..That is,
we can do "double-takes" at almost any level.

>This is in
>contrast to how we can determine the independence of sensation from
>configuration as there I can have blue's and green's without any
>configuration.

Remember that I'm an engineer, not a philosopher. The lowest level of
perception, in my model, consists of those neural signals that come
directly out of sensory receptors. According to our physical models of the
world, the cause of a neural signal is a physical variable acting on the
sensory receptor to make it fire. The rate at which impulses are generated
depends on the intensity of the stimulus -- that is, the rate of energy
transfer. This is true of all sensory endings, although there are
differences in linearity and temporal effects. Once inside the nervous
system all we have are trains of impulses, which are direct functions of
the intensity of stimulation (regardless of the type of stimulation).

I agree that philosophy and engineering are different. And what follows
is in the main correct--though the rate hypothesis is probably going to
get chunked out the window. The question is whether we need a
new level of perception..and this question can be partially answered by
recourse to the logic of the levels we already have accepted. That is nor
more symbolic than 2+2, and should be followed with the same caveats. My
question is only this:When you say that there is one example of a
repetition/cycle, How is that different from a sequence E, E, ...
We don't confuse rocks for liberties so I suppose this difference
between cycles and sequences should be obvious as well.

i.

From Bill Powers (981102.1346 MST)]

i.kurtzer (981102.1150EST) --

"Bright" is the name of a sensation. The name of the corresponding
intensity signal might be "lots of stimulation" without identifying the
modality.

Hmmm..That does seem strange to me. Lets say bright yellow and dim
yellow. So there are TWO sensations here as the above would imply?

No, one sensation, two levels of intensity. Changing the intensity of a
color does not change which color it is. I forgot that "bright" is also
used to identify the quantity of stimulation underlying a sensation (bright
yellow) when it's not being used to distinguish modalities (brightness from
sweetness).

Edwin Land's theory of color and his many demonstrations suggest that the
hue of a color is determined by the ratio of a given patch of
long-wavelength stimulation to the total long plus short wavelength
stimulation over an area of the visual field (perhaps the whole field). In
other words, sensations of color are not just weighted sums, but
_normalized_ weighted sums. This would make the perceived color of a patch
independent of its actual intensity -- something Land clearly demonstrated.
It explains how a picture can contain a brilliant yellow banana when there
is no element in the picture containing any yellow light. It explain how a
patch seen as red in one picture and yellow in another can actually contain
a single mixture of wavelengths.

It
seems far more reasonable that there is one sensation with two different
intensities.

Yes, I agree.

Read Kofka, the old Gestalt psychologist. It
is possible to adopt a
viewpoint in which one is unable to say whether a stimulus was a flash or
light or a click of sound. He called the intensity level the "sensorium
commune."

There are cross-modal confusions and matchings..such as this tastes
very yellow..or that slowly bouncing blue ball should have a tuba chiming
to its bounces. But this does seem a very different situation..That is,
we can do "double-takes" at almost any level.

That's due to higher-level failures to distinguish among sources of
perceptions. A yellow banana can be categorized with the taste of a banana,
so the color can substitute for the taste at the level of categories and
above.

My question is only this:When you say that there is one example of a
repetition/cycle, How is that different from a sequence E, E, ...
We don't confuse rocks for liberties so I suppose this difference
between cycles and sequences should be obvious as well.

It's not wise to compare degenerate cases of different things. If you boil
cats and flies down to the number of eyes, you can't tell them apart.

E,F,E,F ... is a repetitive cycle, and in each repetition can be seen two
sequences: E,F and F,E. But while we can write out either cycle or sequence
by putting down the symbols as they occur, we would need a much more
extensive notation to write out the repetitive cycle:

E,pause,pause,F,Pause,E,Pause,pause,F,pause,E ...

versus

E,pause,F,pause,E,pause,pause,F,pause,pause,E ....

The sequence is the same, in either case, because the ordering or E and F
is the same, but the two cases differ in their patterns of timing.

Since I have defined the sequence level to be concerned strictly with
temporal ordering, without this level we have no level that perceives in
terms of cyclic (repeating) and rhythmical patterns in which time durations
distinguish one repeating cycle from another.

Best,

Bill P.