Glib Fundamentals

[From Rick Marken (951024.2130)]

Peter J. Burke (241095.1300) --

Well, it is clear that "the test" by itself will not tell us if we have a
control system. I am glad we have that clear.

It's not clear to me -- so it's not clear to "we".

It seems to me that the Test "all by itself" does quite a good job of
determining whether we are dealing with the purposeful behavior of a
living system or not. The Test reveals very clearly that the behavior of a
marble is not purposeful. Remember, the basic idea of the Test is to see
whether disturbances have the _expected_ effect on a variable. You don't
have to be a rocket scientist to see that the effects of disturbances (created
by your hand, gravity, etc) to the position of the marble are exectly what
would be expected if the marble were just dead weight (which it is). It is
unnecessary to Test for input and output functions in the marble because
the Test has already proved that the marble does not control its position.

we must be very careful about what we contend is a control system and
not be so glib about saying that humans are control systems or that
[virtually] everything we do is part of one or more control systems.

Actually, we are not saying that humans are control systems; we are saying
that each human is a _hierarchical organization_ of many perceptual
control systems, each controlling a different perceptual variable.

I don't think we are being "glib" when we identify a control system after
carefully testing to determine that people can and do keep certain variables
under control. We have overwhelming evidence that people control
many different variables; have you read "Mind Readings", my collection
of papers describing experimental studies of control? Have you read the
experiments done by Bourbon, Robertson and Powers? We're not being
glib at all when we say that people -- and all living systems -- control.
We're being honest.

What is "glib" is the acceptance of an untested assumption about human
behavior -- the assumption that human behavior is _not_ purposeful;
that behavior is a "response" rather than a process of perceptual control.
Conventional behavioral scientists (like yourself) have glibly ignored
William James' elegant description (in the "Principles") of a method
(equivalent to the Test) that can be used to discriminate purposeful
systems (like Romeo) from non-purposeful ones (like iron filings).
Conventional behavioral scientists have glibly carried on as though there
were no difference between Romeo moving toward Juliet and filings
moving toward a magnet, between Mozart molding the Requim and the
Colorado molding the Grand Canyon, between a pilot landing at Anchorage
airport and a marble landing at the bottom of a bowl. That's _glib_.

I have been reading J.A. Scott Kelso's book _Dynamic Patters: The Self-
Organization of Brain and Behavor_, and he has a very different view of
the whole process involving principles of self-organization that
apparently subsumes much of what control-systems do.

Kelso has a different view because he has never bothered testing to see if
his "self-organizing systems" or the (systems they model) actually control.
Kelso's self-organizing systems are nothing but complicated versions of
marbles in bowls, pendula on strings and masses on springs; they are
dynamic systems that return to a stable state (bottom of bowl, plumb,
balanced forces) after a transient disturbance.

Kelso and associates have used one kind of "self-organizing system" -- a
mass on a spring -- as a model of hand positioning; adjustments of the
spring constant (which models adjustments of arm muscle tension) lead
to changes in the position of the mass (hand). The mass (model hand)
returns to its original position after a transient force disturbance to the
mass; but it remains out of position as long the force is applied to the
mass. Compare this to what happens when you apply a constant force to
someone's outstretched hand; if the force is not overwhelming, the hand
remains where it was before the force was applied; there is virtually no
displacement at all; the force does not have its expected effect. A simple
application of the Test would have saved Kelso a lot of wasted effort --
and the world of behavioral science a lot of confusion

So, I return to fundamentals.

What are the fundamentals, from your perspective? What could be more
fundamental to behavioral science than understanding the nature of
behavior itself?

PCT shows that the term "behavior" is ambiguous -- it refers to all results
of a system's actions. For most systems -- non-living systems -- all results
of actions are the same; they are (as Homer Simpson once said) just a bunch
of stuff that happens. PCT shows that for a certain kind of system -- a
control system -- all results of action are _not_ the same; some results are
_intended_ and some are not. PCT shows that you must know what kind of
"behavior" you are dealing with -- intended or unintended results of action --
before you can explain why these results occurred. The laws of physics and
chemistry already do a great job of explaining unintended results; control
theory, however, is required to explain intended results.

Rather than returning to the "fundamentals" it looks to me like you have
returned to the misconceptions (if you ever left).

Rick

[Peter Burke 251095.0801]
To Rick Marken --
Being glib is when you think you have all the answers and no longer look
at the questions. If you had read my statements and questions carefully
you would not be so quick to jump to the conclusions that you did or feel
so defensive that you have to resort to put downs personal remarks.

Conventional behavioral scientists (like yourself) have glibly ignored
William James' elegant description (in the "Principles") of a method
(equivalent to the Test) that can be used to discriminate purposeful
systems (like Romeo) from non-purposeful ones (like iron filings).

You have no idea what kind of behavioral scientist I am, or whether I
have ignored William James. Why make statements like this and ignore the
substance of my comments?

PCT shows that for a certain kind of system -- a
control system -- all results of action are _not_ the same; some results are
_intended_ and some are not.

Where are the intentions in a PCT system? The system acts "as if" its
"intention" is to match perceptions and standards, but how do you know
that this is not a "just so" story? A soliton wave resists disturbances
and maintains its shape over hunderds of miles. How do you "know" that
the soliton wave is not a PCT system or that any ECU is not acting like
the soliton wave? Perhaps you can address the issues rather than than
spew forth derogations like:

Rather than returning to the "fundamentals" it looks to me like you have
returned to the misconceptions (if you ever left). > > Rick

Peter

<[Bill Leach 951025.23:42 U.S. Eastern Time Zone]

[Peter Burke 251095.0801]

Peter, Rick's comments were not any more "personal" then were your's.

You did provide a nearly perfect example of a situation where control
theory would indicate that there was no evidence of a control system in
operation and then asserted that 1) "THE TEST" would not predicit that a
control system was not operative and 2) since you believed that your
incorrect assertion was indeed correct that THE TEST is useless or at
least dangerously ambigious.

Rick then did, it appears to me, "read your statements and questions
carefully". He then tried to point out in detail where and why your
analysis of the application of THE TEST was incorrect.

Where are the intentions in a PCT system? The system acts "as if" its
"intention" is to match perceptions and standards, but how do you know
that this is not a "just so" story?

The issue here is that verbal descriptions are not the issue. The real
issue is that control theory is a theoritcal system with a precise
mathematical construction. As is often the case for precise mathematical
constructions, it is quite difficult to describe without loosing both
accuracy and major portions of the "implications" of the mathematics.

Isaac actually provided a very important insight in one of his recent
messages. The theory IS NOT the phenomenon of control. The theory is
but our best current explaination of the phenomenon. It just so happens
that in the physical sciences, the phenomenon of control is recognized,
described and defined by a particular set of equations. It is further
recognized that the phenomenon that we call control and define with
these equations is the only theory that fits the observed behaviour when
rigorous analysis is employed.

It has further been observed that the behaviour of living systems, when
it has been possible to apply the same degree of rigorous analysis is
explainable only through control theory. That is only control theory
explains such behaviour with the same degree of exactness that is
demanded in the rest of the physical sciences where "ambiguity" or
"large" deviation between prediction and observation is unacceptable.

A soliton wave resists disturbances and maintains its shape over
hunderds of miles. How do you "know" that the soliton wave is not a PCT
system or that any ECU is not acting like the soliton wave? Perhaps you
can address the issues rather than than spew forth derogations like:

It seems like I should remember what it is that you are talking about
here... rather than attempt to look it up since I suspect that the
specifics of a "soliton wave" are not relevent beyond what you have
already stated I will use another example...

A high powered focused laser could be said to "resist disturbance" in
that if you insert even a steel plate in its' path it will burn though
the place "in order to reestablish its' original path length". This sort
of behaviour would not be at all difficult to set up and demonstrate in a
lab. However, if one applies THE TEST, one quickly finds that the
example fails. In the first place, the "laws of physics" will predict
that the existing beam intensity at various locations along the beam path
will "burn" through a steel plate of a specific composition, thickness
and RMS surface smoothness. Upon inserting the plate, no change in the
output of the laser would be observed and the plate would "burn through"
within the predicted time plus or minus known prediction inaccuracies.

In this case no further testing would be required though one could also
show that there the laser system lacked the necessary functional units
for a control system to control path length against blockage (even if it
did have control system units for other reasons).

-bill