Hal on me and my lawnmower

From Tom Bourbon [930928.1645]

Hal Pepinsky (Tue, 28 Sep 1993 09:15:11 CDT)

Hal, I am trying to understand what you have been saying in your recent
posts, where you characterize PCT as a model which "inherently provokes
violence." I am not having much success in my endeavor.

Just a comment on the train of csg-l conversation I'm reading: I'm
struck by how persistently the real-world examples are those of one
person acting against a resistant environment. If I'm correct about
what kind of model PCT is, the consequences will be seen as y'all
apply PCT as between people in cases of inter-personal/group conflict.

Did you see any of the lengthy discussions, not too long ago, about people
in organizations? Or those about pairs of people who cooperate, or control
one another, or act independently, or help one another? We discussed several
possible interactions between people and we discussed hypothetical actual
(some of them published) attempts to model the interactions with PCT models.

Were those the places where we should have seen "what kind of model PCT
is"? Should we have seen that it is a model which "inherently provokes
violence"? On the other hand, what do you mean when you say that "cases of
inter-personal/group conflict" are the places where we will see what kind of
model PCT really is? I don't understand what you mean.

I'm not saying this is all PCT is, but as long as I'm hear, it's the
application of PCT that interests me. I see it also interests people
who work in industrial management. I see in occasional management
applications confirmation that in practice PCT-modeling of control
contains recipes for violent control.

*Which* application interests you, applications to cases of violence and
conflict? If so, the violence and conflict are in the cases, not
necessarily in any model you or anyone else might use to model the
participants in the conflict.

Could you please give us some references to the people you see who apply PCT
in managerial settings? I know of some, but I don't know if they are the
ones you have seen. Nearly all of the ones I know have made a mess of
control theory and consequently are not talking about the model we discuss
on this net. I am especially interested in *specific* references, please,
to management applications which confirm "that in practice PCT-modeling of
control contains recipes for violent control." Those specific references
and examples would be far too important for anyone on this net to keep them
from the others. If PCT modeling contains such obvious recipies for violent
control, we need to know about them. That fact would call for dramatic
reassessments, by many of us, of our understandings of the model. Specific
references and examples, please. I am serious, not joking and not putting
you down. If you have this material, please share it.

Until later,

Tom Bourbon

Just a comment on the train of csg-l conversation I'm reading: I'm
struck by how persistently the real-world examples are those of one
person acting against a resistant environment. If I'm correct about
what kind of model PCT is, the consequences will be seen as y'all
apply PCT as between people in cases of inter-personal/group conflict.

I'm not saying this is all PCT is, but as long as I'm hear, it's the
application of PCT that interests me. I see it also interests people
who work in industrial management. I see in occasional management
applications confirmation that in practice PCT-modeling of control
contains recipes for violent control. l&p hal