Hebbian learning

[From Bill Powers (2009.06.01.0841 MDT)]
The Aplysia thread raised Hebbian learning as an issue. It occurred to me
that Hebb’s proposal has to be explained a bit more before it can be
linked to PCT.
I think that the principles of contiguity and repetition that Hebb uses
were an attempt to model classical conditioning. The problem with using
these ideas in PCT is that we have no idea what kind of signal is
involved in this sort of learning, and therefore no idea of whether this
is the appropriate model.

I’m reading Hebb, A Textbook of Psychology, Saunders, 1958 (1964
reprinting).

Hebb has some vague sort of idea that if the strength of the connection
is increased, the impulses will get farther through the nervous system.

“In other regions [of the cortex], conduction is diffuse; cells may
start together but run in different directions, so the cells cannot sum
their effects at the next synapse. Such transmission seems inefficient
and must often fail to carry through the network to reach the effectors,
thus not influencing behavior.” (p.100).

This brings us to “Let us see now how the diffuse conductivity of
the cortex allows us to understand, in principle, the selectivity of
higher behavior (i.e., responding to some stimuli, not to others); the
holding process, or the delay of transmission that permits a stimulus to
have its effect at the proper moment; and, in general terms, the lack of
a complete sensory dominance of the behavior of the higher animal.”
(p. 101).

That is pretty awful, but it leads into the discussion of cell assemblies
influencing each other, and eventually (p. 105) into this:

“Assumption 2: if two assemblies A and B are repeatedly active at
the same time they will tend to become “associated” so A
excites B and vice versa.”

Eventually this gets to the proposition that if two synapses receive
impulses at the same time they will become “strengthened”, a
word that can be interpreted in a number of ways.

But for what kind of signal would that be an appropriate effect, one that
might represent useful learning of some kind? For Hebb, learning was
simply establishing the connections from sensory inputs to motor outputs,
but later uses of his idea have broadened it to include practically any
kind of theory you please.

We could ask, for example, whether this sort of adaptation could lead to
developing a comparator function in which the output signal represents
the difference between two input signals, a cell assembly familiar in
PCT. If a reference-signal impulse reached the comparator neuron at the
same time as the perceptual-signal impulse, and if this strengthened both
synapses so they had greater effects on the output of the neuron, would
that tend to produce the effect required of a comparator? Since a
comparator needs one excitatory input and one inhibitory input, we would
certainly not want to increase both effects equally, because that would
simply lead to cancellation: any perceptual signal would cancel any
reference signal’s effect, so the output error would always be zero. How
do we get a graduated effect, so that the larger the difference between
the two signals, the larger the error signal gets? There wouldn’t seem to
be any way to do that with Hebb’s scheme.

Then what about output signals? If a lower-order comparator received two
signals at the same time from two different higher systems, would
increasing the strength of the synapses give us what is needed? No,
because what is needed is for the outputs converging on lower systems to
be different, some excitatory and some inhibitory, some larger and some
smaller, and this does not result from strengthing all synapses.

Then what about perceptual input functions? Those cell assemblies receive
copies of perceptual signals from multiple lower-order systems, and
combine them to produce a higher-order perceptual signal. Would Hebb’s
principle work for generating, say, a sensation signal from a set of
intensity signals? We have been assuming that sensations are computed
from weighted sums of intensity signals. The weights have to vary from
one input function to another according to which sensation is to result.
One input function might combine the four taste-intensity signals in a
particular way to detect the degree of nuttiness, while another combined
the same signals in a different way to detect the degree of
chocolateness. Would strengthening the synapses of a neuron reached
simultaneously by impulses from the four kinds of intensity signals
result in making these distinctions? I don’t see how.

Problems of this sort become even worse at higher levels, where we have
to consider such things as detection of relationships, or categories, or
sequences, with perceptual input functions working according to the same
Hebbian rules at each different level.

I think we have to conclude that Hebbian learning is simply insufficient
to account for all the connections at all the levels in the brain, or for
that matter, to account for any of them in a system that uses signals of
varying frequency, and what the Aplysia modelers call an “integrate
and fire” model of the neuron. Hebb was working with a very naive
and primitive concept of the brain as a stimulus-response system that
simply routed impulses from sensory inputs to motor outputs with various
delays, and with sensory impulses somehow representing all the different
kinds of perceptions without any differences in the ways they are
generated or in their form. You really have to go back to that old
textbook to appreciate just how primitive the thinking was 50 years
ago.

This old book was being written at the same time that three guys at the
VA Research Hospital in Chicago were working their way toward the first
version of PCT published in 1960. Hebb was a big name in psychology, much
bigger than Powers, Clark, and MacFarland. Which only goes to show that
the mountain we thought we were climbing was just a foothill. I’m glad I
didn’t know that – I would have gone into some other occupation rather
than undertake an obviously hopeless task.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.01.2240)]

Bill Powers (2009.06.01.0841 MDT)--

This old book was being written at the same time that three guys at the VA
Research Hospital in Chicago were working their way toward the first version
of PCT published in 1960. Hebb was a big name in psychology, much bigger
than Powers, Clark, and MacFarland. Which only goes to show that the
mountain we thought we were climbing was just a foothill. I'm glad I didn't
know that -- I would have gone into some other occupation rather than
undertake an obviously hopeless task.

Aw, come on. Then no one would have gotten it (that behavior is the
control of perception). Now we (well, those of us who are willing to
listen) have something really interesting to do until the Apocalypse.
And if you had gone into some occupation there never would have been
that great paper that just came out in _Review of General Psychology_:
Try to find it hidden (like Waldo) in the table of contents at

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=browsePA.volumes&jcode=gpr

Of course, I did know just how tough the climg would be. I just didn't
expect to see the army arrayed against us once we got to the top; or
the friendly fire we would get from behind. But I still find it all to
be quite exciting. Thank you!

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Dick Robertson,2009.06.02.0922CDT]

Congrats, Rick.

I’d say the camel’s nose is finally well under the side of the tent.

Best,

Dick R

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Marken rsmarken@GMAIL.COM
Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 12:46 am
Subject: Re: Hebbian learning
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.01.2240)]

Bill Powers (2009.06.01.0841 MDT)–

This old book was being written at the same time that three
guys at the VA
Research Hospital in Chicago were working their way toward the
first version
of PCT published in 1960. Hebb was a big name in psychology,
much bigger
than Powers, Clark, and MacFarland. Which only goes to show
that the
mountain we thought we were climbing was just a foothill. I’m
glad I didn’t
know that – I would have gone into some other occupation
rather than
undertake an obviously hopeless task.

Aw, come on. Then no one would have gotten it (that behavior is the
control of perception). Now we (well, those of us who are
willing to
listen) have something really interesting to do until the Apocalypse.
And if you had gone into some occupation there never would have been
that great paper that just came out in Review of General Psychology:
Try to find it hidden (like Waldo) in the table of contents at

APA PsycNet

Of course, I did know just how tough the climg would be. I just didn’t
expect to see the army arrayed against us once we got to the
top; or
the friendly fire we would get from behind. But I still find it
all to
be quite exciting. Thank you!

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.06.02.0743 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2009.06.01.2240) --

Of course, I did know just how tough the climb would be. I just didn't
expect to see the army arrayed against us once we got to the top; or
the friendly fire we would get from behind.

In some ways I don't agree with you; in some ways I do. The fact is that it is extremely hard for most people with degrees in psychology to throw everything they learned in the trash can. Aren't you still teaching statistics? I can understand why they are down there in the Dumpster trying to salvage something from the wreckage. It just COULDN'T have been a total waste of time!

So I disagree with you in the sense that I say there's no point in complaining (and nobody to complain to) about these natural resistances to change. When you kvetch about the situation, just exactly to whom do you suppose you're kvetching? JHVH? Mommy and Daddy? Barack Obama? I'm afraid there is nobody on the other end of the line who is going to leap into action and make everything all right again. The people you're complaining about are the ones you're complaining to, so if it's some sort of result you want, you have to take that into account.

Of course I also agree. Reading that old book of Hebb's was really somewhat shocking (it's been sitting on my bookshelves for almost 50 years and had been unread for 40 of them). His entire idea of what a brain is and does is so naive and sloppy that it doesn't even seem professional. Yet his ideas are still talked about with respect. If this man was recognized as a standout contributor in the field of psychology, this does not speak well for the field of psychology as it was in 1958. There is nothing in that book that I would go out of my way to preserve. Finding what little there is that might be worth keeping is hardly worth the pain of reading most of it.

That, of course, is going to offend Hebb-admirers, and I should probably have just kept quiet. In principle, we ought to examine each thing Hebb said and wrote and consider it separately, on its own merits and current significance. In practice, I say that is simply asking too much. PCT would be advanced much more rapidly by working on PCT than by looking for friendly translations of 10% of the ideas someone had, while slowly examining and then tossing out the window the other 90%, sentence by sentence. I can live with the occasional disagreement. But when I find myself disagreeing with more than half of someone's pronouncements and guesses, I begin to gnash my teeth, and when it gets to 90% I start looking for a dog to kick.

Oops, I forgot about dog-lovers, too, of which I am one.

We are attached to our pasts by an umbilicus that, unless we cut it, we still depend on for nourishment and support, no matter how it limits our self-sufficiency and range of movement. PCT is a revolution, and you can't have half a revolution.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.02.0800)]

Bill Powers (2009.06.02.0743 MDT)--

In some ways I don't agree with you; in some ways I do.

Sounds right!

So I disagree with you in the sense that I say there's no point in
complaining (and nobody to complain to) about these natural resistances to
change. When you kvetch about the situation, just exactly to whom do you
suppose you're kvetching? JHVH? Mommy and Daddy? Barack Obama? I'm afraid
there is nobody on the other end of the line who is going to leap into
action and make everything all right again. The people you're complaining
about are the ones you're complaining to, so if it's some sort of result you
want, you have to take that into account.

I 'm sorry if it seemed like I was complaining. I don't mean to but I
suppose I do sometimes feel like a rejected lover, in which case I
know I'm complaining to the same nothingness to which I sing sad lost
love songs. It just feels good to sing them. But I don't feel nearly
as bad about having my work in PCT ignored as I have felt in the
admittedly rare cases when I experienced rejection in love;-)

PCT would
be advanced much more rapidly by working on PCT than by looking for friendly
translations of 10% of the ideas someone had, while slowly examining and
then tossing out the window the other 90%, sentence by sentence.

A point which I make in my paper, of course.

We are attached to our pasts by an umbilicus that, unless we cut it, we
still depend on for nourishment and support, no matter how it limits our
self-sufficiency and range of movement. PCT is a revolution, and you can't
have half a revolution.

And another point I make in my paper.

I think we obviously agree totally. Your only disagreement was with my
complaining, which I am happy to be disagreed with about. You're like
the friend who says "She's not worth the agony". I agree. But it still
would be nice to be loved rather than spurned, even if she's not worth
it;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[Martin Taylor 2009.06.02.10.07]

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.01.2240)]

  I just didn't
expect to see the army arrayed against us once we got to the top; or
the friendly fire we would get from behind.

I don't think I'd want you as a soldier, who can't distinguish between reinforcements and an enemy envelopment, of between "friendly fire" and supporting artillery.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.03.0940)]

Martin Taylor (2009.06.02.10.07) --

Rick Marken (2009.06.01.2240)--

�I just didn't
expect to see the army arrayed against us once we got to the top; or
the friendly fire we would get from behind.

I don't think I'd want you as a soldier, who can't distinguish between
reinforcements and an enemy envelopment, of between "friendly fire" and
supporting artillery.

Feeling a little guilty, are we? But, yes, you are one of those I
perceive as a source of friendly fire. But I would love it if you
could explain why you think you are actually providing supporting
artillery. My paper is arguing for a revolution in psychology,
particularly in terms of how psychological science is done. My point
was that you can't study closed-loop systems using conventional
methods that assume that the system under study is open loop. You have
been arguing (in the Schouten experiment thread) that sometimes
conventional methods can be used appropriately (and have accidentally
been used appropriately in the past) to study closed-loop systems. How
is this support for the PCT revolution to which I have been trying to
contribute? As Bill Powers said in an earlier post "PCT is a
revolution, and you can't have half a revolution." It sounds to me
like your arguments regarding methodology are an attempt to make the
PCT revolution into half a revolution. How is this support?

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.06.03.1042 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2009.06.03.0940) –

[RM writing to] Martin
Taylor (2009.06.02.10.07) –

Feeling a little guilty, are we? But, yes, you are one of those
I

perceive as a source of friendly fire. But I would love it if you

could explain why you think you are actually providing supporting

artillery. My paper is arguing for a revolution in psychology,

particularly in terms of how psychological science is done. My point

was that you can’t study closed-loop systems using conventional

methods that assume that the system under study is open
loop.

BP: While I disagree with Martin’s arguments, I think you’re mistaken in
accusing him of assuming that the system under study in the
Schouten experiment is open loop. What Martin claims to be doing is
isolating one open-loop component of the system, the perceptual
input function (which I’m sure you will agree is itself open-loop). My
argument with him is that I think what he claims to be doing is
impossible – it requires assuming other properties of the system that
are also unmeasurable from outside it. This would be all right if there
were a second independent way of making another estimate of the internal
properties. Then we would have two equations in two unknowns which can be
solved. But with only one way of making an estimate there is no solution
and any assumption about the internal composition of the system is purely
arbitrary. I drew a couple of diagrams showing an alternate
interpretation of what is happening inside the system, in which there is
no uncertainty at all about DETECTING which light came on, but there is
noise in the signal which REPORTS the result of the detection. That
changes the meaning of the information that the final result represents:
it is not information about the state of a light, but about the state of
a report concerning the light, which can vary independently of any
detection of the light. Martin hasn’t responded to the diagrams yet. I
attach them again in case they were lost.

It is most common, as I understand warfare, for damage from friendly fire
to come from what is intended to be supporting artillery, misdirected. I
think Martin’s intentions are entirely friendly.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.03.1115)]

Bill Powers (2009.06.03.1042 MDT)]

BP: While I disagree with Martin's arguments, I think you're mistaken in
accusing him of assuming that the system under study in the Schouten
experiment is open loop.

But I didn't so accuse him. What I did accuse him of (which you failed
to quote) was:

You [Martin] have been arguing (in the Schouten experiment thread)
that sometimes conventional methods can be used appropriately
(and have accidentally been used appropriately in the past) to study
closed-loop systems.

Note the last phrase: "can be used appropriately...to study
closed-loop systems". So clearly I'm assuming that Martin knows that
the systems under study are closed loop. What I'm "accusing" him of
is assuming that conventional methods can be used to study such
systems.

What Martin claims to be doing is isolating one
open-loop component of the system, the perceptual input function (which I'm
sure you will agree is itself open-loop).

Yes, I think I understood just fine. Martin thinks he can use
conventional methods to study open-loop properties of a closed loop
system. I think you made the best reply of all to this; closed-loop
systems don't become open-loop when you interfere with the system's
aeffect on the input you are disturbing.

My argument with him is that I
think what he claims to be doing is impossible

I know. But certainly his argument in favor of the merits of using
conventional methods to study open loop properties of closed loop
systems, even if motivated by the best of intentions, can be better
described as "friendly fire" rather than "supporting artillery" for
the PCT revolution.

It is most common, as I understand warfare, for damage from friendly fire to
come from what is intended to be supporting artillery, misdirected. I think
Martin's intentions are entirely friendly.

I agree completely! You anticipated what I just said. I know Martin's
intentions are friendly. But, as in actual warfare, that doesn't make
the bullets hurt any less;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.06.03.1247 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2009.06.03.1115) --

RM: Note the last phrase: "can be used appropriately...to study
closed-loop systems". So clearly I'm assuming that Martin knows that
the systems under study are closed loop. What I'm "accusing" him of
is assuming that conventional methods can be used to study such
systems.

BP: What Martin claims to be doing is isolating one
> open-loop component of the system, the perceptual input function (which I'm
> sure you will agree is itself open-loop).

RM:Yes, I think I understood just fine. Martin thinks he can use
conventional methods to study open-loop properties of a closed loop
system.

BP: Properties of a SYSTEM are not properties of its COMPONENTS. Martin is trying to measure a property of a component, not a whole system. I don't think you "understand just fine," if you confuse a system with its components.

In our tracking experiments, we use a model which has enough equations in it to allow solving for properties of individual OPEN-LOOP components. The input gain and delay are measured, which are OPEN-LOOP properties of the input function. The gain and time constant of the OPEN-LOOP output function are also measured, by adjusting parameters for a best fit. This does not mean we are representing the tracking control system as an open-loop system. We are using entirely conventional methods of systems analysis to study open-loop properties of components of closed-loop systems.

My beef with Martin is not that he thinks the whole system is open-loop. He doesn't. But he appears to think that his assumptions are sufficient to allow isolating the properties of one component of the system, and I don't believe they are.

RM: But certainly his argument in favor of the merits of using
conventional methods to study open loop properties of closed loop
systems, even if motivated by the best of intentions, can be better
described as "friendly fire" rather than "supporting artillery" for
the PCT revolution.

BP: Why do we have to decide who is against us and who is for us? That just turns a rational argument into a personal feud. The next step is to say "The friend of my enemy is my enemy; the enemy of my enemy is my friend." It's easy to draw the lines so they can never be erased. You've been on the receiving end of that sort of treatment often enough to know where it leads. How does it help PCT get accepted?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.03.1500)]

Bill Powers (2009.06.03.1247 MDT)--

RM:Yes, I think I understood just fine. Martin thinks he can use
conventional methods to study open-loop properties of a closed loop
system.

BP: Properties of a SYSTEM are not properties of its COMPONENTS.

Oy. I guess I should have said "component property" to be clear. But
that's what I meant, and I suspect that you know that, but maybe not.
So let me _try_ to be clear: One component property of a closed loop
system is the OPEN LOOP perceptual function: p = f(i). Martin thinks
he can study that component property using conventional methods. I
show in my paper (and you showed in your 1978 _Psych Review paper)
that you can't. That's PCT 101.

�Martin is
trying to measure a property of a component, not a whole system. I don't
think you "understand just fine," if you confuse a system with its
components.

But I don't. You're trying to imagine that for you own reasons.

My beef with Martin is not that he thinks the whole system is open-loop. He
doesn't.

I know, as I said in my prior post to which you are not non-responding;-)

RM: But certainly his argument in favor of the merits of using
conventional methods to study open loop properties of closed loop
systems, even if motivated by the best of intentions, can be better
described as "friendly fire" rather than "supporting artillery" for
the PCT revolution.

BP: Why do we have to decide who is against us and who is for us?

I'm not suggesting that Martin is against us. I said that I assume
that his intentions are the best. I'm just pointing out that his
misguided efforts to support PCT are having the same effect as
misguided "support artillery". What's wrong with mentioning to your
allies that they are hurting the cause in their very efforts to help
it.

That just turns a rational argument into a personal feud.

It's a good thing I'm not doing it then.

How does it help PCT get accepted?

In the same way that preventing support artillery from being misguided
into friendly fire helps the soldiers be more effective. I don't have
a personal feud with Martin; it's his damned support artillery that I
can do without;-)

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[Martin Taylor 2009.06.04.00.46]

Why are arguments relating to my interpretation of the Schouten
experiment in a thread entitled "Hebbian learning"?

I don't really see any value in continuing that discussion, which hinged
around a claim that if (as is true in any control system) o = f(d), and
one can work with d = g(x), then o = (f(g(x)).

Neither do I see why Rick insists that to point out that o = f(d) is
"friendly fire" that can potentially destroy PCT.

Martin

PS. To justify the Hebbian subject line, I attach a paper that might be
of interest.

Information processing in the axon.pdf (2.26 MB)

[From Rick Marken (2009.06.03.2245)]

Bill Powers (2009.06.03.1247 MDT)--

How does it help PCT get accepted?

Another way to answer that question is with a question: Wouldn't it
have been great if Martin (or one of the other prominent experimental
psychologists who supports PCT) had written an article like the one I
just published? I can't think of anything that would have helped get
PCT accepted more than having the "supporting artillery" out there
publishing paper after paper showing the true revolutionary nature of
PCT. But, maybe not. Who knows? Sigh.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.06.04.0624 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2009.06.04.00.46--

I don't really see any value in continuing that discussion, which hinged around a claim that if (as is true in any control system) o = f(d), and one can work with d = g(x), then o = (f(g(x)).

That's not quite the argument.

o = f(qi)

qi = g(o) + d

o = f(g(o) + d)

Suppose
o = k*qi and
qi = -o^2 + d

where o^2 means o*o

then

     1 + SQRT(1 + 4k^2d)
o = ------------------
             2k

So the output will be observes as that rather complicated function of d, and the appearance is that a stimulus produces a response according to that formula. In fact, the forward (organism) function is a simple proportionality but the feedback effect greatly modifies the relationship between d and o.

If k (the forward gain) is large, and d does not go negative, we have the approximation

     1 + 2k*SQRT(d)
o ~ --------------, or
           2k

o ~ SQRT(d)

so the output appears to be related to the disturbance as the inverse of the relationship in the feedback path, and the forward relationship between qi and o is not visible at all.

Whether we use the approximation or not, the apparent relationship between d and o is different from the forward equation describing the behaving system. That is the basis of Rick's objections to the proposed analysis of the Schouten experiment. To work around this problem it is necessary to identify qi, the controlled variable, which was not done in the Schouten experiment. My objection is also based on lack of identification of qi -- in fact, on the impossibility of identifying it given only the experimental results. Your proposed analysis of the information content of the perceptual signal is based on using the apparent relationship between d and o, which is not the same as the actual relationship between qi and o. Without additional data, it's not possible to deduce the value of qi or the form of the forward function, though of course by assuming a form of the forward function one can deduce the rest. However, every different assumption will yield a different value of the measured information, so the model is underspecified.

I apologize for not having found this way of expressing the problem earlier, but it has taken me a while to see it.

Best,

Bill P.

···

Neither do I see why Rick insists that to point out that o = f(d) is "friendly fire" that can potentially destroy PCT.

Martin

PS. To justify the Hebbian subject line, I attach a paper that might be of interest.