(from John Kirkland 700 hours 14 Jan 2011 NZT)
One of my previous mails presented a possible colour-perception study
in design format so as to solicit some helpful suggestions. I wanted
to avoid saying, 'Hey look what we've already done, is there a PCT
interpretation?'.
Help me out here Bill, what I'm picking up from your helpful reply to
my enquiry is that PCT requires a dynamic aspect, such as when a
series of error-correcting adjustments are made. Whether such control
is automatic or volitional is irrelevant. Hence it would seem our
static dead-end approach of presenting triads and requesting a person
to indicate the swatch that does not blend, or blends worst, is not
amenable to a PCT interpretation. Please note it's not my intention
to knock PCT here. Quite the opposite, I was hoping for a sense of
complementarity to check whether we could do these studies 'better'.
There's another topic you've written about at least a couple of times
Bill, 'teaching' maths. As I recall on one occasion you'd remarked
your daughter caught on to 'tables' in a couple of days. If you've a
few minutes to jot some notes down I'd be most interested to hear how
you went about this since it's a task/problem many of us teachers
face. And, yes, this is for real as I'm attempting to encourage/teach
maths-depleted tertiary students to acquire basic mental computation
skills most of us gained as youngsters. I've sourced many good and
useful websites but few have a sense of dynamic engagement coupled
with self-correcting. An exception is www.khanacademy.org where Sal
goes right ahead and makes errors and corrects them as well;
observational learning before your eyes.
In anticipation and with thanks
JohnK
···
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:
[From Bill Powers (2010.12.30.1235 MDT)]
(from John Kirkland 1800 hours 30 Dec 2010 NZT)
A very impressive track record! I misinterpreted your request for help -- it
sounded as if you were contemplating the use of some cards with color
patches on them -- I didn't catch on that you had already been doing this
for a long time, so I thought I might offer an easier way to do it for
anyone who has a computer. You had writtenNow, if I designed a deck of small light-grey coloured cards each with
three colour swatches (of, say, 10mm diameter) arranged into an
equilateral triangle then a person can be asked to 'point to the one
that is most different from the remaining two'.Doesn't that sound more like something you're contemplating doing than
something that's already in use?As to PCT "interpretations", I don't know what you're after. You're studying
color perception, and there's nothing peculiarly PCT-ish about that except
for the technique of adjusting colors for matches, and that's not a new
concept, either. Anyway, the method you initially described doesn't use it,
so that wouldn't be relevant. Can you be more specific about what you're
asking for?Best,
Bill P.
Always curious, I was trying to put the CVD issue in as clear a way as
possible onto the CSG net, inviting commentary about possible PCT
interpretations. This remains a curiosity. �And I hasten to add that a
string of publications does not in any way mean we've cornered any
market here; we're not that silly. �My hunch is there's still a viable
PCT interpretation that's lurking and waiting. �OK, for me this
remains an open question.
Once again, I appreciated your reply Bill. �It was a wonderful
Christmas pressie.And for now at the cusp of opening another Gregorian calendar here's a
familiar TS Eliot quote that will readily apply to the ongoing PCT
challenge too -For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning.A Happy New Year to those on the CSGnet, to you and to yours
JohnK
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 4:10 AM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> >> wrote:
> Hello, John --
>
> This post from you has been sitting in my inbox for a long time while I
> tried to think of how to answer it. Your proposed experiment with three
> colored patches on cards seemed difficult to quantify and unnecessarily
> indirect. Since you were requesting help, I offered a color vision test
> that
> looked to me much more direct and quantifiable. You asked for a "PCT
> interpretation" of your proposal, but I don't see how to do that without
> actually trying it -- and even then, I'm not sure I know what it is you
> want. You're talking about properties of a visual perceptual input
> function,
> but to measure them you propose only to present a visual stimulus and
> ask a
> person to indicate by �pointing which of three patches is "most
> different"
> from the others. This has little to do with the way a PCT experiment
> would
> be done, and certainly doesn't amount to a quantitative measurement. I
> don't
> see how you would get from "most different" to an actual measurement of
> a
> deficit in color vision.
>
> The PCT approach is to give the subject control over the perceptions,
> not to
> have the experimenter control them by presenting stimuli and trying to
> get a
> pointing response from the subject. By using a computer, the
> experimenter
> can have the subject actually produce a color that, as the subject sees
> it,
> matches or doesn't match another color, and in doing so, provide
> numerical
> values of the red, green, and blue components of the color. This is as
> near
> as we can come to observing how a color looks to the subject without
> having
> to use words or measure the neural response of rods and cones.
>
> Beyond that, I don't see what sort of help I could give you.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill P.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Now, if I designed a deck of small light-grey coloured cards each with
>> three colour swatches (of, say, 10mm diameter) arranged into an
>> equilateral triangle then a person can be asked to 'point to the one
>> that is most different from the remaining two'. �As I say, if they're
>> more or less following the instructions then there's not much choice.
>> Although having said that different triads drawn from a finite set may
>> offer some tough decisions, particularly where there is stand out
>> candidate on offer. �But that doesn't matter as it's possible to
>> prepare many combinations and such differences will be ironed out.
>>
>> My request was a PCT interpretation of what might be going on here.
>> If I've not made this clear then please let me know and I'll try
>> again. �My apologies for any ambiguities.
>>
>> With thanks
>>
>> JohnK
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Richard Marken <rsmarken@gmail.com> >> >> wrote:
>> > [From Rick Marken (2010.12.12.2045)]
>> >
>> >> From David Goldstein (2010.12.12.22:34 EDT)
>> >
>> >> She was not a patient. She was a friend of my son Joshua. As far as
>> >> I
>> >> know,
>> >> this synesthesia condition is chronic, but it does change with age.
>> >>
>> >> Using PCT to think about it, revealed that it involved controlled
>> >> variables
>> >> at a higher level than sensation level which is where we expect
>> >> color
>> >> perceptions to originate.
>> >>
>> >> She was the leader of a club at Rutgers U. made up of people who
>> >> have
>> >> different kinds of this condition.
>> >>
>> >> Bill's approach to studying her, was an education on how to do PCT
>> >> reserach:
>> >> intensive study of the individual; set things up so that they can
>> >> communicate to you what their experience is without relying on
>> >> verbal
>> >> reports.
>> >
>> > Ok. �Sorry I mis-remembered. Happens more and more these days;-)
>> >
>> > Best
>> >
>> > Rick
>> >
>> > --
>> > Richard S. Marken PhD
>> > rsmarken@gmail.com
>> > www.mindreadings.com
>> >
>