Homily

[From Bill Powers (990330.0839 MST)]

Writing to Tom Bourbon, I got into a preachy mood and wrote the following,
to which I wish I would pay attention more often:

I think we all, including me, fall into the "third party trap." That is,
when we argue for a good idea or against a bad one, we argue as if we were
addressing some Third Party who is utterly fair and logical, who will
always accept a good argument and reject a bad one. It's as though we were
standing before some Ultimate Judge, explaining how unreasonable, stubborn,
stupid, or unscrupulous the defendant, over there, is. And, of course, how
utterly right we are.

But there is no Third Party to whom we can complain. The people we're
talking to are on our side, some other side, or the defendant's side. If
they're on our side, they already agree with us whether we're right or not
in any objective terms. If they're on some other side, they don't
understand why anyone cares about the argument between us and the defendant
one way or the other. And if they're on the defendant's side, attacking
them and showing how wrong they are will only increase their opposition to
us, because they think they are right and we are wrong.

I think our approach must be, "Come, let us reason together." This is very
hard to do, but if we can't do that, our next-best bet is to maintain silence.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Mike Acree (990331.0915 PST)]

Bill Powers (990330.0839 MST)--

I think we all, including me, fall into the "third party trap." That

is,

when we argue for a good idea or against a bad one, we argue as if we

were

addressing some Third Party who is utterly fair and logical, who will
always accept a good argument and reject a bad one. It's as though we

were

standing before some Ultimate Judge, explaining how unreasonable,

stubborn,

stupid, or unscrupulous the defendant, over there, is. And, of course,

how

utterly right we are.

This post was definitely a keeper, for me.

I would add that I think the third-party effect may be largely a class
phenomenon, which is to say a disease of the literate class. Writing
pulls strongly for addressing a generalized other, or for what Basil
Bernstein calls elaborated code. That's partly a matter of its
permanence, compared with the spoken word, and partly a matter of the
number and variety of potential readers. E-mail networks like the
CSGNet occupy an interesting position of some ambiguity: We can address
individuals, as I ostensibly am now; but, knowing that this post will be
read by many others (most of whom I've never met), I also shape my
messages in certain ways, so they become less like letters and more like
essays. Those of us accustomed to the print medium tend to carry the
same style over into conversation (and personal letters); but my
impression is that this third-party effect may be slight among people
who are either literally illiterate or who make little use of print
media. Their communications may not always be exquisitely adapted to
the particular characteristics of the individual listener, but such
communities tend to be homogeneous enough, sharing enough common
understandings, that they can get by with leaving a lot implicit.

But there is no Third Party to whom we can complain.

I'm not sure everything addressed to a Third Party is a complaint. It
is certainly possible to read B:CP as an extended complaint, but I'm not
sure that perspective would do justice to your intentions in writing it.
For that matter, the present post could be read as a complaint about
yours. But I would feel that that really missed the mark. I think my
take would be that there _is_--potentially--a Third Party, after all,
but that we have nowhere to look for it but to each other; and it is up
to each of us, if we choose, to come as close as we can to being that
kind of audience for the other. That is perhaps what we are always
implicitly asking the other to do for us whenever we speak.

I think our approach must be, "Come, let us reason together." This is

very

hard to do, but if we can't do that, our next-best bet is to maintain

silence.

I don't know whether this post qualifies as a contribution to reasoning
together, but if it doesn't I'm willing to shut up.

Mike

from [ Marc Abrams (990401.1544) ]

[From Bill Powers (990330.0839 MST)]

Writing to Tom Bourbon, I got into a preachy mood and wrote the following,
to which I wish I would pay attention more often:

I think we all, including me, fall into the "third party trap." That is,
when we argue for a good idea or against a bad one, we argue as if we were
addressing some Third Party who is utterly fair and logical, who will
always accept a good argument and reject a bad one. It's as though we were
standing before some Ultimate Judge, explaining how unreasonable, stubborn,
stupid, or unscrupulous the defendant, over there, is. And, of course, how
utterly right we are.

I am in complete agreement with this fine post, with one small amendment to
the above. I don't think we usually give a damn _what_ the third party
thinks. We are convinced of the righteous of our ideas and damn the
torpedo's full speed ahead. We need to _ask_ more questions and try to be
more informed about what the other person is really interested in before we
make the gross assumptions ( which are wrong as much as they are right ) we
do. We don't have to do the "TEST" on everyone, but it might be a good idea
to try and look beyond the obvious on occasion.

[From Bill Powers (990401.1438 MST)]

Mike Acree (990331.0915 PST)--

I did have in mind some of the discussions on anarchy, but honestly I was
talking mostly to myself.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Mike Acree (990401.0930 PST)]

Perhaps I should leave well enough alone, but I've been feeling since
posting my previous message that it should be scored for thought
disorder. I had some fleeting recognition as I was typing that I was
mixing together two different issues, but that point didn't make it to
focal awareness before I clicked to send. I don't think on reflection
that literacy has much to do with what Bill was talking about, but with
that digression I managed to mangle the elegant inspiration of his piece
to the point where it was more like homily grits.

The Third Party phenomenon, if I understand what Bill was referring to,
has much more to do, I would say, with the universal human tendency to
have parents. My impression is that many people realize that there is
no "Third Party," in that sense, if they ever do, only when their
parents die, and suddenly they notice that there is no longer anyone out
in front, leading the way. So giving up on Third Parties (no political
jokes, please) is really about growing up.

Mike

[From Bill Powers (990401.1124 MST)]

Mike Acree (990401.0930 PST)--

The Third Party phenomenon, if I understand what Bill was referring to,
has much more to do, I would say, with the universal human tendency to
have parents. My impression is that many people realize that there is
no "Third Party," in that sense, if they ever do, only when their
parents die, and suddenly they notice that there is no longer anyone out
in front, leading the way. So giving up on Third Parties (no political
jokes, please) is really about growing up.

I suspect that you are right. When you give up the third party, you
suddenly find that you have to interact _directly_ with other individuals,
and that it is them, not the Third Party, that you have to convince.

Best,

Bill P.