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On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 5:31 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
PY: Your premise is that it’s unlikely that people can really describe the variables they control with the level of precision that you would get from testing for the controlled variable. Describe what you mean by precision.Â
RM: Fair question. I think ideally a precise description of a controlled variable would be in the form of a mathematical function. But especially for “higher level” controlled variables, like “degree of honesty”, a precise definition of the variable (at least for now) would have to be in the form of a verbal description of the lower level perceptions that make up the variable.Â
PY: Why do you want me to describe what variable is controlled when I’m brushing my teeth? That is something you wouldn’t even ask a kindergartner.
RM: According to PCT, all behavior involves the control of perceptual variables. Brushing teeth just popped into my head as one kind of behavior that you probably engage in. I wasn’t trying to insult you; I was just suggesting an everyday example of behavior that you have probably engaged in that would, therefore, be a behavior that you could analyze in terms of the perceptual variables that you control when you do it. (Oh, and I would ask a kindergartner to do a PCT analysis of brushing their teeth; I haven’t done so, yet, because none has yet told me – as you did – that it’s easy to tell what variables they are controlling when they do things like catch fly balls).Â
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PY: Here’s a better one that shouldn’t insult your intelligence: what variable do you control when you’re juggling 3 things?Â
RM: Asking what I control when I brush my teeth wouldn’t insult my intelligence either. But you were the one who said it was easy to tell what variables you are controlling when you do things so it would be nice if you would tell me some of the perceptual variables that you are controlling when you juggle three things.Â
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PY: Why haven’t you added catching flyballs to the list?Â
 RM: I didn’t have a list; I believe I just asked you to describe the perceptual variables you control when you do some everyday behaviors. Juggling three things and catching fly balls are not part of my everyday behavior (maybe they should be) so I didn’t suggest them. Brushing my teeth is, I’m proud to say, part of my everyday behavior so I mentioned it because I assumed it was part of yours too.
RM: Again, I point you to the spreadsheet at:Â
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JmS6tOjt_nvrpmD5sGySwup0ZZCU_hYtZqlHxW80dME/edit#gid=0
RM: for examples of the kind of analysis I’ve suggested that you try. I’m interested in whether you can come up with more precise definitions of the variables you control (the variables described in the Controlled Variables column) than those in the spreadsheet so far. Whether you can or not, I think doing this (adding some rows to the matrix) would be a good exercise in starting to look at behavior through control theory glasses.
Best
Rick
Â
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–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:
Anyone you like. How about brushing your teeth?
On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 1:27 PM PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
Which activity for example?
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 5:42 PM, Richard Marken csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
[Rick Marken 2018-06-27_17:41:54]
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 1:15 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
PY: Yes.Â
 It’s not difficult to describe your conscious experience.Â
I would say that I keep the ball in the center of my field of view. If you’re saying that it’s impossible to tell without a computer whether its optical acceleration or optical velocity is zero, I would like to hear it.
 RM: I’m not saying it’s impossible. I just think it’s unlikely that you can really describe the variables you control with the level of precision that you would get from testing for the controlled variable.But if you are really as good at describing the variables you control as you say you are then you qualify as a one-person PCT lab. How about describing the variables you control as you carry out various everyday activities. You could enter the results of your self analysis in the spreadsheet we started creating some time ago:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JmS6tOjt_nvrpmD5sGySwup0ZZCU_hYtZqlHxW80dME/edit?usp=sharing
 I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
BestÂ
Rick
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Richard Marken csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
[Rick Marken 2018-06-27_10:44:39]
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 6:30 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
PY: Why is it necessary to empirically determine the variables people control when they can just tell you?
RM: Because I don’t think people are very good at doing that. For example, would you be able to correctly tell what variable(s) you are controlling when you catch fly balls? Â
BestÂ
Rick
Â
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Richard Marken csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
[Rick Marken 2018-06-25_09:55:56]
philip jun24 6:11pm
PY: Given the preference of the wallet example, the controlled variable of
honesty is “not taking what doesn’t belong to you”. One would expect a
zero correlation between your grasp and somebody else’s things.
RM: Yes, this is a good start. I actually don’t have a good idea of how to test for control of perceptual variables like “degree of honesty” but I think it would be best if we could figure out a way to test for such control in a laboratory environment, where we have better control of all the variables that might affect the hypothetical controlled variable. One idea I had was to develop a game where, in order to keep accumulating points, the player would have to control a variable that we would call “honesty” at some reference level. So maybe you show the participant the location of some “treasure” on the screen and then have avatars representing the computer and the participant try to get to the treasure. A each point in the hunt the participant is asked which way each avatar should turn. The participant should find questions about the correct way to turn to be disturbances to making an honest answer when the question is about how the computer’s avatar should turn but not when the question is about how the participant’s avatar should turn.Â
RM: I’m not crazy about this exact idea but this is the line along which I think we should go about trying to determine the kinds of perceptual variables people control. I think developing a science of control of perception – particularly control of higher level perceptions – is completely new territory for the behavioral sciences and will require some serious thinking by smart people, who understand behavior as control, to figure out how to do it. I’d love to see some detailed proposals for how to do such research.
BestÂ
Rick
–
Richard S. Marken Â
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery