I Meant to Do That: Determining the Intentions of Action in the Face of Disturbances

[Rick Marken 2018-01-29_08:39:03]

Hi Warren et al

Great find. Amazing the lengths people will go to to preserve the cause-effect model of behavior, even what they know to be purposive behavior. I’m copying this to CSGNet to see what the experts there think of it.Â

BestÂ

Rick

···

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

FYI…

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137289

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

In short its flawed as they judge the intended behaviour as the trajectory of the arm in the absence of the disturbance, rather than as the intended perceptual target of the action…

···

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[Rick Marken 2018-01-29_08:39:03]

Hi Warren et al

Great find. Amazing the lengths people will go to to preserve the cause-effect model of behavior, even what they know to be purposive behavior. I’m copying this to CSGNet to see what the experts there think of it.Â

BestÂ

Rick

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

FYI…

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137289

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Â
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Â
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Â
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

[Bruce Nevin 2018-01-30_09:01:20 ET 14:01:34 UTC]

A superficial read suggests to me that the disturbance overwhelms control, and the initial ‘straight line’ corresponds to the time it takes for relationship-level error (hand-target relationship) to be transformed to lower-level efforts.

When they see a ‘change of intention’, is it the change of references (‘intentions’) for lower systems by means of which the disturbance is resisted and the higher-level reference (the target) is continuously controlled? Seems to me necessarily the case if you’re inferring (lower-level) ‘intent’ (reference) from the delta between actual trajectory resisting disturbance and trajectory predicted by physics. Or am I leaping to a gross misinterpretation?Â

···

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

In short its flawed as they judge the intended behaviour as the trajectory of the arm in the absence of the disturbance, rather than as the intended perceptual target of the action…

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[Rick Marken 2018-01-29_08:39:03]

Hi Warren et al

Great find. Amazing the lengths people will go to to preserve the cause-effect model of behavior, even what they know to be purposive behavior. I’m copying this to CSGNet to see what the experts there think of it.Â

BestÂ

Rick


Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Â
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Â
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Â
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

FYI…

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137289

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Rick Marken 2018-01-30_16:54:59]

image402.png

image403.png

···

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

WM: In short its flawed as they judge the intended behaviour as the trajectory of the arm in the absence of the disturbance, rather than as the intended perceptual target of the action…

RM: It’s kind of difficult to tell what their model is. Based on this part of one of their equations:Â

it could be a control model with two controlled variables, q and q.dot. These are the joint angle (q) and rate of change in joint angle (q.dot) that result in the movement of the hand; qd and qd.dot are the “desired” or reference states of these variables. But they seem ti think of qd and qd.dot as “equilibrium points”. I think what they are doing is predicting the desired hand path (which is a function of qd and qd.dot – do it’s a side effect of intending to produce intended joint angles) based on how much effect a disturbance would be expected to have given the inherent "springiness" of the person’s muscles that determine the joint angles. So, for example, in this graph (which looks a lot like the kind of plots we see in PCT research):

RM: The wavy line is the observed movement of the hand when a low pass noise disturbance is applied. The “Extracted Desired Hand Path” is inferred based on how much the hand was expected to deviated from that path based on estimates of parameters predict how much “push back” there would be to such a disturbance of known force.Â

RM: Because they include a “Feedback Controller” in their model (the equation copied above) I think their approach is actually very similar to the one described by Powers in his chapter in Wayne Hershberger’s collection of papers called Volitional Action:

Powers, W. T. (1989) Quantitative Measurement of Volition: A Pilot Study. In W. Hershberger (Ed.) Volitional Action: Conation and Control, Amsterdam: North-Holland

RM: So I think the good thing about this article is that it pointed me to this wonderful paper by Bill, which will be helpful in some other work I’m currently doing.Â

RM: The not so good thing about this article; well, there are many but I suppose one of the top ones is that it is a method of determining intentions only for one type of behavior: limb joint movement. Another is that it provides the basis for computing the “expected” variance of limb position under force disturbance; this would be useful for demonstrating lower level control of the position of a force joystick that is being used to control a cursor.Â

RM: Apparently they do allow comments to articles in Plos so if aI gt a chance I’ll write a comment pointing the authors to some of the PCT work on determining intentions.Â

Best

Rick


Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[Rick Marken 2018-01-29_08:39:03]

Hi Warren et al

Great find. Amazing the lengths people will go to to preserve the cause-effect model of behavior, even what they know to be purposive behavior. I’m copying this to CSGNet to see what the experts there think of it.Â

BestÂ

Rick


Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Â
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Â
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Â
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

FYI…

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137289

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Thanks Rick!
Warren

image402.png

image403.png

···

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[Rick Marken 2018-01-30_16:54:59]

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

WM: In short its flawed as they judge the intended behaviour as the trajectory of the arm in the absence of the disturbance, rather than as the intended perceptual target of the action…

RM: It’s kind of difficult to tell what their model is. Based on this part of one of their equations:Â

it could be a control model with two controlled variables, q and q.dot. These are the joint angle (q) and rate of change in joint angle (q.dot) that result in the movement of the hand; qd and qd.dot are the “desired” or reference states of these variables. But they seem ti think of qd and qd.dot as “equilibrium points”. I think what they are doing is predicting the desired hand path (which is a function of qd and qd.dot – do it’s a side effect of intending to produce intended joint angles) based on how much effect a disturbance would be expected to have given the inherent "springiness" of the person’s muscles that determine the joint angles. So, for example, in this graph (which looks a lot like the kind of plots we see in PCT research):

RM: The wavy line is the observed movement of the hand when a low pass noise disturbance is applied. The “Extracted Desired Hand Path” is inferred based on how much the hand was expected to deviated from that path based on estimates of parameters predict how much “push back” there would be to such a disturbance of known force.Â

RM: Because they include a “Feedback Controller” in their model (the equation copied above) I think their approach is actually very similar to the one described by Powers in his chapter in Wayne Hershberger’s collection of papers called Volitional Action:

Powers, W. T. (1989) Quantitative Measurement of Volition: A Pilot Study. In W. Hershberger (Ed.) Volitional Action: Conation and Control, Amsterdam: North-Holland

RM: So I think the good thing about this article is that it pointed me to this wonderful paper by Bill, which will be helpful in some other work I’m currently doing.Â

RM: The not so good thing about this article; well, there are many but I suppose one of the top ones is that it is a method of determining intentions only for one type of behavior: limb joint movement. Another is that it provides the basis for computing the “expected” variance of limb position under force disturbance; this would be useful for demonstrating lower level control of the position of a force joystick that is being used to control a cursor.Â

RM: Apparently they do allow comments to articles in Plos so if aI gt a chance I’ll write a comment pointing the authors to some of the PCT work on determining intentions.Â

Best

Rick


Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[Rick Marken 2018-01-29_08:39:03]

Hi Warren et al

Great find. Amazing the lengths people will go to to preserve the cause-effect model of behavior, even what they know to be purposive behavior. I’m copying this to CSGNet to see what the experts there think of it.Â

BestÂ

Rick


Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Â
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Â
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Â
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

FYI…

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137289

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Â
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Â
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Â
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory