[From Rick Marken (931221.1330)]
Hans Blom (931221) --
An experiment. A colony of bees has lived in its environment for a
long time...Since bees can fly, they can take any
trajectory, of course, although on their way they will need direct
perceptions to navigate around trees and bushes.
I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that the only
"inner map" involved here is in YOUR head -- not in the bees. The
experiments you describe sound like excellent examples of insects
learning to control their own perceptions; I'd bet on perceptions
of chemical gradients and visual landmarks before I'd resort to models
involving "inner maps"
The inner map seems to say: "there cannot be food in the
lake", whereas the immediate perceptions say: "this fellow says that
there is food in the lake".
Ah, bees have inner maps and perceptions that TALK. The talking per-
ceptions must be the informative ones that Martin Taylor keeps telling
us about. How lucky for those bees to have perceptions that tell them
what to do in order to achieve their goals (well, I guess they weren't
that lucky this time, eh).
Combining these two must produce an out-
come: the signaler was obviously taken to be a fool or a joker.
And I like the way you carefully avoid anthopomorphisms, honing in
on the simplest and most obvious model to explain the bees' behavior.
Those signalers -- what cut-ups.
Bill Powers (931220.1830 MST) refreshingly suggests:
It would be very helpful if you could think of a different
example [besides the vortex], one that we could actually analyze.
Martin Taylor (931221 11:00) replies:
I agree. I'll see if I can. But all nonlinear systems are hard
to analyze, and nonlinearity is crucial, as are far from equilibrium
conditions, in the development of a self-organized structure.
So, is the bottom line that there is no simple, straight- forward
way to describe a non-controlling negative feedback organization?
I thought you were trying to show that a variable reference signal
is essential for control (purpose). You were going to show this by
describing one of the MANY examples of negative feedback organizations
that don't control (have purpose) because there is no variable in these
systems equivalent to a reference signal. I guess, now, that I am going
to have to take the existence of such systems on faith because,
apparently, the only examples of non-controlling negative feedback
systems (of the MANY that you say exist in nature) are non-linear
systems that are as complex as the vortex.
I have been unable to make heads or tails of the vortex conversation
(I lost it when the vortex changed from a negative to a positive
feedback system). So I guess I'll never understand what the dynamical
systems approach can contribute to my understanding of living systems.
Ah well
Rick