Jaynes (was Statistics: what is it about?)

[From Mike Acree (2009.02.08.1626 PST)]

In my last exchange with Martin (1/15), I
was asking him for justification for his repeated claim that Bayesianism
represents the ideal of human reasoning, and he was exasperated to the point of
majuscules:

Just what IS it that you want?

I didn’t see what was so impossible
about my question, until I surmised that, from Martin’s point of view,
Jaynes had already provided a proof, so perhaps he thought there was nothing
more to be said. I decided the next step was to read Jaynes and see for
myself, but that took a few weeks.

I thank Martin very much for the
recommendation. Although I was a recovered Bayesian by the time I read his
1976 article, shortly after it was published, I remembered admiring his thought
and enjoying his style; and the present book fully lived up to my expectations.
Jaynes’ practical approach to problems is impressive, and I would be
happy to have him as a consultant on an engineering problem. I am also in
general agreement with his criticisms of the frequentist theory and methods. I
think my only significant disagreement with him lies in the scope of his claims
for Bayesian methods, precisely the point where Martin and I had disagreed.

Jaynes makes the interesting observation
that Bayesians have tended to be physicists, the frequentists mathematicians
and philosophers. The Bayesian physicists would include Harold Jeffreys, his
closest neighbor, but not Keynes or Savage. Jaynes does a very good job of
analyzing physical problems, and identifying relevant symmetries and
invariances for probability assignment; his resolution of Bertrand’s
paradox is a good example. But the broader, foundational claims, of which he
is so proud, are the weak point of the theory.

The basic problem is perhaps nothing more
than confusion of concepts. A minor example is that Jaynes starts off talking
about plausibility. He does this, he says, because he doesn’t want to
bring in at the beginning all the baggage associated with probability. But
careful users of English, of which Jaynes is generally one, distinguish these
two concepts. Whereas probability in everyday language relates to the degree
of support for a proposition, plausibility pertains more to the absence of
evidence for the contrary. That is the way it is explicitly defined in
Shafer’s theory, for example. This conceptual sloppiness reminds me of
the way psychologists, of all people, regularly treat depression and sadness as
synonyms; but in this particular case of Jaynes’ it doesn’t do any
particular harm. The real problem is that Jaynes is constructing a calculus of
truth while thinking of it as a calculus of support. Jaynes, following Cox,
starts from the fact that “A + not-A” is always true, and he
assigns this proposition conventionally a probability of 1. (His derivation of
the additive rule—that probabilities over the various alternatives must
sum to 1—reminded me of how strange it struck me, when I was reading
Cox’s book about 35 years ago, that he would go through several pages of
calculus to derive the sum and product rules.) The problem is that he then
thinks of probabilities in terms of evidence or support. But it is not unusual
to find situations where there is little evidence bearing on a question one way
or the other. Both A and not-A have high plausibility, we might say.
Jaynes’ scale, with certainty at both ends, cannot represent such
situations very well.

Jaynes is smart enough to have recognized
the problem, and his attempt to deal with it is probably the best that could be
done within Bayesian theory. Late in the book, he tell us that he had
considered for awhile the necessity of a two-dimensional logic, encompassing
something like weight of evidence in addition to probability. His own examples
are as useful as any: He would assign a probability of ½ to heads with a coin
he had physically examined and determined to be fair, and also to the
possibility of life on Mars. (The value of ½ in the latter case surprises me,
but it doesn’t matter.) But he acknowledges the difference in the two
situations. In the former he has a large weight of evenly balanced evidence;
in the latter he has (evidently) no evidence at all. He proposes to handle the
situation by giving that probability a distribution, Ap, of which ½ is the mean in each case. For the
coin, Ap would be
sharply peaked, perhaps like a beta distribution with r = 50 and N = 100. For Mars, his Ap
would be U-shaped, like a beta with r
= N = 0. The weight of evidence
is then reflected (inversely) in the variance of the Ap distribution, and will correspondingly be
taken into account in the posterior distribution, which incorporates the
imaginary N generating the Ap distribution. Jaynes is
uncomfortable with the idea of a probability of a probability, and tries to
deal with it by creating an “inner” and “outer” robot,
corresponding, he says, to the subconscious and conscious mind, so that the two
probabilities are on different levels. He is fierce throughout the book in
denouncing the “adhockeries” of frequentism, but this seems an
unfortunate piece of adhockery itself, at the foundations.

Jaynes sees himself from the outset as
developing principles of reasoning for a robot. The robot, in his view, is
what makes his theory logical rather than personal. Jeffreys never won much
acceptance with his logical theory just because it was never clear whose beliefs were being represented.
Jaynes often refers to the robot’s “state of knowledge,” but
the robot as defined is incapable of knowing
anything. It “doesn’t do semantics” (p. 94n), so it
doesn’t know what anything means; that is taken care of by the user.
Jaynes wants the robot to behave like a child and believe everything he tells
it; a skeptical robot would be dangerous (p. 99). The robot will take account
of all evidence and be purely unbiased in its conclusions. All the evidence,
that is to say, as we present it. The most telling example is Jaynes’
discussion of Soal and Bateman’s ESP research. Results with one of their
participants had a p value of 10-137;
like C. E. M. Hansel, Jaynes takes this as proof of cheating. He says
straightforwardly that he would choose whatever prior probability was necessary
to swamp that 10-137; nothing could convince him that ESP was real.
If that isn’t sheer prejudice, I don’t know what is. Perhaps
Jaynes would defend himself by acknowledging that the prejudice resided in him
rather than in the robot; but then it’s not clear what he needs the robot
for—except to make his prejudice look more scientific.

Jaynes thinks of his robot as virtually
human, albeit a slave; he approvingly quotes von Neumann’s challenge:
Specify what a machine can’t do and I will build a machine to do it. Of
course, meeting von Neumann’s challenge is trivially easy (saying,
“Will you marry me?” and meaning
it
, for example). But Jaynes’ robot is subject to the usual
limitations, so it is also hard to see from that point of view how Jaynes could
have imagined it an adequate model of reasoning. Any proposition given to the
robot, he says, must have an unambiguous meaning. Setting aside the fact that
meaning is an irrelevant concept to the robot, how many propositions does that
leave—judging just from CSGNet exchanges? Conflicting evidence is also
excluded; we don’t want the robot to undergo the “agony” of
reasoning from incompatible data, which would cause it to crash. But how much
of the real world is then left? Jaynes assures us that evolution selects for
Bayesians, but I think his robot, if it were alive, wouldn’t last long.

Jaynes regularly accuses frequentists of
the “mind projection fallacy,” as in taking randomness to be a
property of things rather than a statement of our lack of knowledge. I’m
prepared to agree with him that the phenomena he is talking about are phenomena
of knowledge; but the problem is that Jaynes’ theory is not epistemic but
alethic. In this regard he could be accused of committing the world projection
fallacy.

Jaynes wants numerical measurement of
plausibilities, or probabilities, so he can program his robot; otherwise he
couldn’t derive all his wonderful results. I’m sure the same point
would be made by modern psychologists, that without numerical measurement of
phenomena like depression or self-esteem, we wouldn’t have been able to
generate the millions of volumes of research filling our libraries. In
Jaynes’ case, I think the useful scientific work could continue, based on
his justifiable arguments about symmetry; all that would be lost are the
unnecessary claims about measuring probabilities in other, ill-defined
situations, like the probability of life on Mars. Jaynes notes that the
desideratum of numerical representation could be replaced by the joint
conditions of transitivity and universal comparability; but Keynes, the first
logical Bayesian, already gave reasons for rejecting the assumption of
universal comparability. Jaynes gives the example of whether it is more likely
that Tokyo will have a severe earthquake on June
1, 2230, or that Norway
will have an unusually good fish catch that day, and gamely argues that they are comparable; but I agree with Keynes
that the general claim is a stretch.

Jaynes boasts frequently that frequentist
techniques are merely special cases of Bayesian theory, so it is odd that he is
so hostile to Glenn Shafer’s theory of belief functions, for which
Bayesian theory is in turn merely a special case. Jaynes does not refer to
Shafer in the text, but describes him in the Bibliography as a “fanatical
anti-Bayesian,” a characterization which would startle Shafer if he didn’t
already know Jaynes. Shafer has the edge on consistency, for his theory
explicitly models belief, or support, or evidence—an epistemic rather
than an alethic approach. It recognizes that, although either A or not-A may
have to be true, we may have, at a given point, little evidence one way or
another, and statements about our knowledge
should accommodate that fact. That said, the Shafer formalism seems to me but
of academic interest. As I indicated earlier, Shafer’s proposals for
numerical measurement of beliefs or support were aptly criticized by Krantz as
analogous to rating the esthetic pleasure derived from viewing a painting by
matching it with the sweetness of a graded series of sucrose solutions of known
concentration.

So I would say, in sum, that Jaynes has
made a terrific contribution to solving practical problems in the physical
sciences, and has provided some provocative and incisive criticisms of
frequentism, but that he has failed in his ambition of providing a general
model of inductive inference.

Mike

(Gavin Ritz 2008.02.09.14.15NZT)

[From Mike Acree (2009.02.08.1626 PST)]

Mike

Elliot Jaques in his Requisite Organisation Theory has shown that propositional
logic is the very basis of human thought. I can send you the references for the
research. I have also replicated his theory in hundreds of managerial reasoning
assessments.

Regards

Gavin

In my
last exchange with Martin (1/15), I was asking him for justification for his repeated claim
that Bayesianism represents the ideal of human reasoning, and he was
exasperated to the point of majuscules:

Just what IS it that you want?

I
didn’t see what was so impossible about my question, until I surmised
that, from Martin’s point of view, Jaynes had already provided a proof,
so perhaps he thought there was nothing more to be said. I decided the
next step was to read Jaynes and see for myself, but that took a few weeks.

I thank
Martin very much for the recommendation. Although I was a recovered
Bayesian by the time I read his 1976 article, shortly after it was published, I
remembered admiring his thought and enjoying his style; and the present book
fully lived up to my expectations. Jaynes’ practical approach to
problems is impressive, and I would be happy to have him as a consultant on an
engineering problem. I am also in general agreement with his criticisms
of the frequentist theory and methods. I think my only significant
disagreement with him lies in the scope of his claims for Bayesian methods,
precisely the point where Martin and I had disagreed.

Jaynes makes the interesting observation that Bayesians have tended to be
physicists, the frequentists mathematicians and philosophers. The
Bayesian physicists would include Harold Jeffreys, his closest neighbor, but not Keynes or Savage. Jaynes
does a very good job of analyzing physical problems, and identifying relevant
symmetries and invariances for probability assignment; his resolution of
Bertrand’s paradox is a good example. But the broader, foundational
claims, of which he is so proud, are the weak point of the theory.

The
basic problem is perhaps nothing more than confusion of concepts. A minor
example is that Jaynes starts off talking about plausibility. He does
this, he says, because he doesn’t want to bring in at the beginning all
the baggage associated with probability. But careful users of English, of
which Jaynes is generally one, distinguish these two concepts. Whereas
probability in everyday language relates to the degree of support for a
proposition, plausibility pertains more to the absence of evidence for the
contrary. That is the way it is explicitly defined in Shafer’s
theory, for example. This conceptual sloppiness reminds me of the way
psychologists, of all people, regularly treat depression and sadness as
synonyms; but in this particular case of Jaynes’ it doesn’t do any
particular harm. The real problem is that Jaynes is constructing a
calculus of truth while thinking of it as a calculus of support. Jaynes,
following Cox, starts from the fact that “A + not-A” is always
true, and he assigns this proposition conventionally a probability of 1.
(His derivation of the additive rule—that probabilities over the various
alternatives must sum to 1—reminded me of how strange it struck me, when
I was reading Cox’s book about 35 years ago, that he would go through
several pages of calculus to derive the sum and product rules.) The
problem is that he then thinks of probabilities in terms of evidence or
support. But it is not unusual to find situations where there is little
evidence bearing on a question one way or the other. Both A and not-A
have high plausibility, we might say. Jaynes’ scale, with certainty
at both ends, cannot represent such situations very well.

Jaynes
is smart enough to have recognized the problem, and his attempt to deal with it
is probably the best that could be done within Bayesian theory. Late in
the book, he tell us that he had considered for awhile the necessity of a
two-dimensional logic, encompassing something like weight of evidence in
addition to probability. His own examples are as useful as any: He
would assign a probability of ½ to heads with a coin he had physically examined
and determined to be fair, and also to the possibility of life on Mars.
(The value of ½ in the latter case surprises me, but it doesn’t
matter.) But he acknowledges the difference in the two situations.
In the former he has a large weight of evenly balanced evidence; in the latter
he has (evidently) no evidence at all. He proposes to handle the
situation by giving that probability a distribution, Ap, of which ½ is the mean in each case.
For the coin, Ap would
be sharply peaked, perhaps like a beta distribution with r = 50 and N = 100. For Mars, his Ap would be U-shaped, like a beta with r = N =
0. The weight of evidence is then reflected (inversely) in the variance
of the Ap
distribution, and will correspondingly be taken into account in the posterior
distribution, which incorporates the imaginary N
generating the Ap
distribution. Jaynes is uncomfortable with the idea of a probability of a
probability, and tries to deal with it by creating an “inner” and
“outer” robot, corresponding, he says, to the subconscious and
conscious mind, so that the two probabilities are on different levels. He
is fierce throughout the book in denouncing the “adhockeries” of
frequentism, but this seems an unfortunate piece of adhockery itself, at the
foundations.

Jaynes
sees himself from the outset as developing principles of reasoning for a
robot. The robot, in his view, is what makes his theory logical rather
than personal. Jeffreys never won much acceptance with his logical theory
just because it was never clear whose
beliefs were being represented. Jaynes often refers to the robot’s
“state of knowledge,” but the robot as defined is incapable of knowing anything. It
“doesn’t do semantics” (p. 94n), so it doesn’t know
what anything means; that is taken care of by the user. Jaynes wants the
robot to behave like a child and believe everything he tells it; a skeptical
robot would be dangerous (p. 99). The robot will take account of all evidence
and be purely unbiased in its conclusions. All the evidence, that is to
say, as we present it. The most telling example is Jaynes’
discussion of Soal and Bateman’s ESP research. Results with one of
their participants had a p value
of 10-137; like C. E. M. Hansel, Jaynes takes this as proof of
cheating. He says straightforwardly that he would choose whatever prior
probability was necessary to swamp that 10-137; nothing could
convince him that ESP was real. If that isn’t sheer prejudice, I
don’t know what is. Perhaps Jaynes would defend himself by
acknowledging that the prejudice resided in him rather than in the robot; but
then it’s not clear what he needs the robot for—except to make his
prejudice look more scientific.

Jaynes
thinks of his robot as virtually human, albeit a slave; he approvingly quotes
von Neumann’s challenge: Specify what a machine can’t do and
I will build a machine to do it. Of course, meeting von Neumann’s
challenge is trivially easy (saying, “Will you marry me?” and meaning it, for example). But
Jaynes’ robot is subject to the usual limitations, so it is also hard to
see from that point of view how Jaynes could have imagined it an adequate model
of reasoning. Any proposition given to the robot, he says, must have an
unambiguous meaning. Setting aside the fact that meaning is an irrelevant
concept to the robot, how many propositions does that leave—judging just
from CSGNet exchanges? Conflicting evidence is also excluded; we
don’t want the robot to undergo the “agony” of reasoning from
incompatible data, which would cause it to crash. But how much of the
real world is then left? Jaynes assures us that evolution selects for
Bayesians, but I think his robot, if it were alive, wouldn’t last long.

Jaynes
regularly accuses frequentists of the “mind projection fallacy,” as
in taking randomness to be a property of things rather than a statement of our
lack of knowledge. I’m prepared to agree with him that the
phenomena he is talking about are phenomena of knowledge; but the problem is
that Jaynes’ theory is not epistemic but alethic. In this regard he
could be accused of committing the world projection fallacy.

Jaynes
wants numerical measurement of plausibilities, or probabilities, so he can
program his robot; otherwise he couldn’t derive all his wonderful
results. I’m sure the same point would be made by modern
psychologists, that without numerical measurement of phenomena like depression
or self-esteem, we wouldn’t have been able to generate the millions of
volumes of research filling our libraries. In Jaynes’ case, I think
the useful scientific work could continue, based on his justifiable arguments
about symmetry; all that would be lost are the unnecessary claims about
measuring probabilities in other, ill-defined situations, like the probability
of life on Mars. Jaynes notes that the desideratum of numerical
representation could be replaced by the joint conditions of transitivity and
universal comparability; but Keynes, the first logical Bayesian, already gave
reasons for rejecting the assumption of universal comparability. Jaynes
gives the example of whether it is more likely that Tokyo will have a severe
earthquake on June 1, 2230, or that Norway will have an unusually good fish
catch that day, and gamely argues that they are
comparable; but I agree with Keynes that the general claim is a stretch.

Jaynes
boasts frequently that frequentist techniques are merely special cases of
Bayesian theory, so it is odd that he is so hostile to Glenn Shafer’s
theory of belief functions, for which Bayesian theory is in turn merely a
special case. Jaynes does not refer to Shafer in the text, but describes
him in the Bibliography as a “fanatical anti-Bayesian,” a
characterization which would startle Shafer if he didn’t already know Jaynes.
Shafer has the edge on consistency, for his theory explicitly models belief, or
support, or evidence—an epistemic rather than an alethic approach.
It recognizes that, although either A or not-A may have to be true, we may
have, at a given point, little evidence one way or another, and statements
about our knowledge should
accommodate that fact. That said, the Shafer formalism seems to me but of
academic interest. As I indicated earlier, Shafer’s proposals for
numerical measurement of beliefs or support were aptly criticized by Krantz as
analogous to rating the esthetic pleasure derived from viewing a painting by
matching it with the sweetness of a graded series of sucrose solutions of known
concentration.

So I
would say, in sum, that Jaynes has made a terrific contribution to solving
practical problems in the physical sciences, and has provided some provocative
and incisive criticisms of frequentism, but that he has failed in his ambition
of providing a general model of inductive inference.

Mike

[From Mike Acree (2009.02.08.2110 PST)]

(Gavin Ritz
2008.02.09.14.15NZT)–

Elliot Jaques in his
Requisite Organisation Theory has shown that propositional logic is the very
basis of human thought. I can send you the references for the research. I have
also replicated his theory in hundreds of managerial reasoning assessments.

I always welcome references. I don’t
know Jaques’ work, but many people have made that claim in the past 150
years. Not having found any of them convincing, I wouldn’t be optimistic
about Jaques.

Mike

(Gavin Ritz 2008.02.09.18.49NZT)

[From Mike Acree (2009.02.08.2110 PST)]

(Gavin
Ritz 2008.02.09.14.15NZT)–

Elliot Jaques in his Requisite Organisation Theory has shown that
propositional logic is the very basis of human thought. I can send you the
references for the research. I have also replicated his theory in hundreds of
managerial reasoning assessments.

I always
welcome references. I don’t know Jaques’ work, but many
people have made that claim in the past 150 years. Not having found any
of them convincing, I wouldn’t be optimistic about Jaques.

Attached some private
paper sent to me by Elliot. Plus a three hundred page reference on research work
done around the world.

Try these Books by Elliot Jaques:

Human Capability:
Cason Hall Publishers

The Life &
behavior of living Organisms, A general Theory: Preager

This book by:

Gibson & Isaac:
Truth tables as a formal device in the analysis of human actions, Levels of
abstraction in logic and human Action.

These web sites

www.casonhall.com

http://www.requisite.org/main.html

http://globalro.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42&Itemid=95&lang=en

It may take one a few
years to get ones head around the theory and its application but I would say it
is probably one of the biggest breakthroughs in human organisation and human
thought.

Further I would say
that it is really a subset of HCPT, but one that could add huge value to HPCT.

Best

Gavin

Mike

Orders of Complexity of Information of the Worlds We Construct1.doc (29 KB)

Jaques Worlds we construct.pdf (55.8 KB)

The Psycholgica lFoundations of Mangerial Systems Charts1.doc (319 KB)

The Psycholgical Foundations of Managerial Systems1.doc (187 KB)

Known Scientific Critiques of Jaques-v3.doc (214 KB)

Elliot Jaques Introduction.pdf (169 KB)

Elliot Jaques Bibligraphy.pdf (832 KB)

[From Mike Acree (2009.02.09.0925 PST)]

(Gavin Ritz
2008.02.09.18.49NZT) –

Thanks, Gavin. In skimming these documents, I don’t find much that arouses my interest, though it’s possible I may be missing something; I notice passing references to some thinkers I like, including Polanyi and Hayek. My first take is at least a superficial similarity with the work of Fernando Flores. Flores relies more heavily on Maturana, though they both appear to copy his relentless abstractness.

Mike

( Gavin
Ritz 2008.02.10.10.08NZT)

[From Mike Acree (2009.02.09.0925 PST)]

(Gavin
Ritz 2008.02.09.18.49NZT) –

Thanks,
Gavin. In skimming these documents, I don’t find much that arouses my
interest, though it’s possible I may be missing something; I notice passing
references to some thinkers I like, including Polanyi and Hayek. My first take is
at least a superficial similarity with the work of Fernando Flores. Flores relies more heavily on
Maturana, though they both appear to copy his relentless abstractness.

Mike

You obviously have no interest in the
human mind.

Skimming through will not give you any idea
on anything relating to any theory. It took me 2 to 3 years to begin to understand
some of the key concepts of Relativity.

Your comments on Maturana is really surprising,
he has nothing to do with Jaques RO Theory in any way at all. I would focus on
your word “superficial”.

I have dome my best to introduce you to
one of the most remarkable theories in social systems (actually the only one),
that is all I can do. Missing something well that’s up to you.

The problem with understanding RO is that
the very knowledge one possesses is the very stumbling block to understanding
it.

Jaques provides the framework how knowledge
is used and understood. Logic is the skeleton for all knowledge and how it is understood
and not the other way around. RO provides in plain clear manner those very
skeletons (structure). In terms of Prigogine’s view point the “being” is the “logic”
and the” becoming” the “knowledge”.

Further there is an exact measure of this
logic. With a bit of training most people can do (ie measure), the results are always
the same

Good luck in your search.

Best

Gavin

···