Joint project?

BP: I don’t know how much longer I will have a clear mind (or even
whether I have one now, come to think of it). I want to see some action
while I can still appreciate it.
After my initial proposal and the responses to it, I shelved the idea in
order to think about it some more. Finally I think I know what direction
I want to take, and need to find out if there are any
collaborators.
There is one clear message that we have to send to the life sciences
concerned with behavior, which in one way or another means all of them.
It is that all the behavioral sciences have been pursuing an illusion
during their whole history, the behavioral illusion. They have been
misled by the actions that organisms use for generating effects that are
of importance to them into thinking that those actions are the
effects of importance. Even now, and even on CSGnet, this error continues
to be made.

In 1960, a paper written largely by me appeared in which these sentences
are found:

“Even when we speak of systems which deal in human
interrelationships, these complex systems not only do not
“care” about what is actually going on in the “real”
environment, they cannot even know what is going on “out
there.” They perform the sole function of bringing their
feedback-signals, the only reality they can perceive, to some
reference-level, the only goal they know.”

If I had been able to write a little better and had known how to
demonstrate the truth of that assertion then in the way I can do now, and
if there had been any substantial number of behavioral scientists who
paused long enough to understand the demonstrations and see what they
mean (including Clark and McFarland), the course of all the sciences of
life would have undergone an abrupt and wrenching change. Needless to
say, that didn’t happen 52 years ago and it hasn’t happened yet. I want
to have one last try at making it happen.

There are now at least a dozen clear computer demonstrations of mine, and
as many more by Rick Marken, Tom Bourbon, and Kent McClelland, that show
that people control what they perceive and mostly do not perceive or
control the externally visible means by which they do it. You can hardly
do a control-system experiment without, even inadvertently, proving that.
In LCS3, Demos 2-1, 7-2, and 9-1 are particularly germane, with demo 3-1
showing how this is accomplished. There are other demos showing that
control works even when there are no perceivable “cues”
indicating to the controller the kind, amount, or direction of
disturbances, and even when the internal workings of “the
plant” are completely unknown to the controller. Other
demonstrations, which could easily be reconstructed, have shown that
supplying information about causes of disturbances or internal properties
of the feedback path has no effect on performance or makes performance
worse if not ignored. And still another set of demos shows that multiple
control systems can control multiple variables of perception by adjusting
multiple means of action in such a way that the external observer cannot
see any helpful patterns in the observable environment. These demos
always work and (for interactive demos) if the person can accomplish the
task, always show the same results regardless of the person operating
them. No statistics required.

As far as I can see, our case is clear and airtight. A scientific
revolution is desperately needed and completely justifiable.

I have suggested this several times before and have run into immediate
resistance within the CSG from those who did not want to go so far as to
declare failure of the mainstream approaches. I’m quite willing to let
that go unsaid, but not willing to withhold arguments against mainstream
interpretations of control phenomena. Of course I have, in the larger
world outside PCT, no reputation to preserve, no big past accomplishments
to defend, no job to protect, and no ambitions concerning long-term
advancement. I don’t even have a PhD thesis to treat tenderly. So I have
what others may consider to be an unrealistically carefree attitude
toward the consequences of saying what I think. OK, I can see the
practicalities here.

But I don’t want to let them influence me any more. There is a chance
that the work I have been devoting most of my attention to for 60 years
can make a major difference in improving the way the sciences of life and
the social sciences advance from here on. The more of us who participate
in the effort I am proposing now, the better the chances of success
become. But if I have to, I will try to do it alone.

Nothing less seems worth the effort now. Who knows? We may be the last
inhabited planet in the local group, or the parent galaxy, that has not
yet had this revolution. The others may be thinking we’re just too dumb
to get it.

So, what is this big proposal? I think you all see what it will be. Let’s
work out the details together. We have discovered that the Earth is not
the center of the universe and that it is round. Surely, that knowledge
could make a difference to others beside ourselves!

Best,

Bill

···

At 09:16 PM 11/16/2012 +0000, McClelland, Kent wrote:

Hi Bill,

After our exchange on CSGnet, where do we stand on the idea of a possible
joint project? I’m still interested, particularly if we can focus it on
something shorter than a book-length monograph. It’s not clear to me
whether Bruce Nevin might also be interested at this
point.

[From Mike Acree (2012.11.20.14.13 PST)]

I would be interested in taking a small role if I can—thinking, I hasten to add, of biology rather than sociology. I work now at the Osher Center for Integrative
Medicine at UCSF, which mostly tackles questions of “mind-body interaction” that would be difficult with any theory or methodology, like effects of meditation on the immune system. Naturally the theory is behavioristic and the methodology statistical, and
we see correspondingly few signs of scientific progress. The evidence of control processes operating in the endocrine and immune systems is pretty unmistakable, of course; but my impression is that the investigators, even as they occasionally draw diagrams
with circular flow, have no way of thinking about such things, or especially of thinking about studying them. I see some prominent people in these fields in a meeting of a dozen or so every few months; and a couple of them, when I have tried to sound them
out about conceptualizing their work in terms of control theory, have seemed interested at least in principle. There are two major catches: (a) I know nothing about any of this myself; and (b) whatever work any of us did on such a project would have to be
done extracurricularly. I know first-hand that all of these people are extremely busy with their own government-grant-supported research, and it takes a brave, open-minded one to see more upsides than downsides to looking into an alternative conceptualization,
even at an advanced point in a career. My vague hope, for the past year or so, has been that I could engage some of these people long enough to work out some tentative models of regulatory processes, and figure out ways of testing them. (There are some technological
and logistic challenges, like continuous monitoring of blood hormone levels over a 24-hour period in the real world, but these may not be the biggest obstacles.) I’m actually not sure whether such a project would fit in with what you and Kent envision; but
control in biological systems besides the nervous system seems not to have been much explored, and is something I may put a little more thought into at some point anyway.

Mike

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU]
On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 12:21 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Joint project?

At 09:16 PM 11/16/2012 +0000, McClelland, Kent wrote:

Hi Bill,

After our exchange on CSGnet, where do we stand on the idea of a possible joint project? I’m still interested, particularly if we can focus it on something shorter than a book-length monograph. It’s not clear to me whether Bruce Nevin might also be interested
at this point.

BP: I don’t know how much longer I will have a clear mind (or even whether I have one now, come to think of it). I want to see some action while I can still appreciate it.
After my initial proposal and the responses to it, I shelved the idea in order to think about it some more. Finally I think I know what direction I want to take, and need to find out if there are any collaborators.
There is one clear message that we have to send to the life sciences concerned with behavior, which in one way or another means all of them. It is that all the behavioral sciences have been pursuing an illusion during their whole history, the behavioral illusion.
They have been misled by the actions that organisms use for generating effects that are of importance to them into thinking that those actions
are the effects of importance. Even now, and even on CSGnet, this error continues to be made.

In 1960, a paper written largely by me appeared in which these sentences are found:

“Even when we speak of systems which deal in human interrelationships, these complex systems not only do not “care” about what is actually going on in the “real” environment, they cannot even know what is going on “out there.” They perform the sole function
of bringing their feedback-signals, the only reality they can perceive, to some reference-level, the only goal they know.”

If I had been able to write a little better and had known how to demonstrate the truth of that assertion then in the way I can do now, and if there had been any substantial number of behavioral scientists who paused long enough to understand the demonstrations
and see what they mean (including Clark and McFarland), the course of all the sciences of life would have undergone an abrupt and wrenching change. Needless to say, that didn’t happen 52 years ago and it hasn’t happened yet. I want to have one last try at
making it happen.

There are now at least a dozen clear computer demonstrations of mine, and as many more by Rick Marken, Tom Bourbon, and Kent McClelland, that show that people control what they perceive and mostly do not perceive or control the externally visible means by which
they do it. You can hardly do a control-system experiment without, even inadvertently, proving that. In LCS3, Demos 2-1, 7-2, and 9-1 are particularly germane, with demo 3-1 showing how this is accomplished. There are other demos showing that control works
even when there are no perceivable “cues” indicating to the controller the kind, amount, or direction of disturbances, and even when the internal workings of “the plant” are completely unknown to the controller. Other demonstrations, which could easily be
reconstructed, have shown that supplying information about causes of disturbances or internal properties of the feedback path has no effect on performance or makes performance worse if not ignored. And still another set of demos shows that multiple control
systems can control multiple variables of perception by adjusting multiple means of action in such a way that the external observer cannot see any helpful patterns in the observable environment. These demos always work and (for interactive demos) if the person
can accomplish the task, always show the same results regardless of the person operating them. No statistics required.

As far as I can see, our case is clear and airtight. A scientific revolution is desperately needed and completely justifiable.

I have suggested this several times before and have run into immediate resistance within the CSG from those who did not want to go so far as to declare failure of the mainstream approaches. I’m quite willing to let that go unsaid, but not willing to withhold
arguments against mainstream interpretations of control phenomena. Of course I have, in the larger world outside PCT, no reputation to preserve, no big past accomplishments to defend, no job to protect, and no ambitions concerning long-term advancement. I
don’t even have a PhD thesis to treat tenderly. So I have what others may consider to be an unrealistically carefree attitude toward the consequences of saying what I think. OK, I can see the practicalities here.

But I don’t want to let them influence me any more. There is a chance that the work I have been devoting most of my attention to for 60 years can make a major difference in improving the way the sciences of life and the social sciences advance from here on.
The more of us who participate in the effort I am proposing now, the better the chances of success become. But if I have to, I will try to do it alone.

Nothing less seems worth the effort now. Who knows? We may be the last inhabited planet in the local group, or the parent galaxy, that has not yet had this revolution. The others may be thinking we’re just too dumb to get it.

So, what is this big proposal? I think you all see what it will be. Let’s work out the details together. We have discovered that the Earth is not the center of the universe and that it is round. Surely, that knowledge could make a difference to others beside
ourselves!

Best,

Bill

[From Rick Marken (2012.11.20.1720)]

BP: I don't know how much longer I will have a clear mind (or even whether I
have one now, come to think of it). I want to see some action while I can
still appreciate it.

RM: Sounds pretty clear to me!

BP: After my initial proposal and the responses to it, I shelved the idea in
order to think about it some more. Finally I think I know what direction I
want to take, and need to find out if there are any collaborators.

RM: Why?!?! You do so well yourself. Why screw it up with collaborators.

BP: There is one clear message that we have to send to the life sciences
concerned with behavior, which in one way or another means all of them. It
is that all the behavioral sciences have been pursuing an illusion during
their whole history, the behavioral illusion. They have been misled by the
actions that organisms use for generating effects that are of importance to
them into thinking that those actions are the effects of importance. Even
now, and even on CSGnet, this error continues to be made.

RM: That's sure good evidence that collaborators are not only
unnecessary; they would probably just mess it up.

BP: As far as I can see, our case is clear and airtight. A scientific revolution
is desperately needed and completely justifiable.

RM: I agree. Indeed, one of the last papers I published was about PCT
Being a _real_ scientific revolution. So now you should write one
again. The world (me) wants it!

RM: I have suggested this several times before and have run into immediate
resistance within the CSG from those who did not want to go so far as to
declare failure of the mainstream approaches

RM: More reason to forget the collaborators!!

BP: But I don't want to let them influence me any more. There is a chance that
the work I have been devoting most of my attention to for 60 years can make
a major difference in improving the way the sciences of life and the social
sciences advance from here on. The more of us who participate in the effort
I am proposing now, the better the chances of success become. But if I have
to, I will try to do it alone.

RM: I think the more who participate in PCT research/science the
better. But I don't think you need any more than you to write the
paper you want to write. I say write it yourself and try to publish it
in Psych Review. If they or some other high profile journal won't
publish it we'll promulgate it via the net (that's where some
collaboration might help). But I think just like brain surgery, the
kind of paper you are considering is best done by you alone. Please do
it; pretty please.

BP: So, what is this big proposal? I think you all see what it will be. Let's
work out the details together. We have discovered that the Earth is not the
center of the universe and that it is round. Surely, that knowledge could
make a difference to others beside ourselves!

RM: Just write the paper. I'll be happy to give you feedback on it and
help with the submission details if necessary; but write it!!

BP: It would be so valuable to have one of two more of your gems. Please do it!!

Best

Rick

···

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2012.11.20.1730)

Rick Marken (2012.11.20.1720)--

I notice that I sometimes got the BPs and RMs messed up in the above
post. Clearly, I have boundary issues;-) I hope everyone can figure it
out but I don't think it matters much in that paricular post.

Best

Rick

···

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:

BP: I don't know how much longer I will have a clear mind (or even whether I
have one now, come to think of it). I want to see some action while I can
still appreciate it.

RM: Sounds pretty clear to me!

BP: After my initial proposal and the responses to it, I shelved the idea in
order to think about it some more. Finally I think I know what direction I
want to take, and need to find out if there are any collaborators.

RM: Why?!?! You do so well yourself. Why screw it up with collaborators.

BP: There is one clear message that we have to send to the life sciences
concerned with behavior, which in one way or another means all of them. It
is that all the behavioral sciences have been pursuing an illusion during
their whole history, the behavioral illusion. They have been misled by the
actions that organisms use for generating effects that are of importance to
them into thinking that those actions are the effects of importance. Even
now, and even on CSGnet, this error continues to be made.

RM: That's sure good evidence that collaborators are not only
unnecessary; they would probably just mess it up.

BP: As far as I can see, our case is clear and airtight. A scientific revolution
is desperately needed and completely justifiable.

RM: I agree. Indeed, one of the last papers I published was about PCT
Being a _real_ scientific revolution. So now you should write one
again. The world (me) wants it!

RM: I have suggested this several times before and have run into immediate
resistance within the CSG from those who did not want to go so far as to
declare failure of the mainstream approaches

RM: More reason to forget the collaborators!!

BP: But I don't want to let them influence me any more. There is a chance that
the work I have been devoting most of my attention to for 60 years can make
a major difference in improving the way the sciences of life and the social
sciences advance from here on. The more of us who participate in the effort
I am proposing now, the better the chances of success become. But if I have
to, I will try to do it alone.

RM: I think the more who participate in PCT research/science the
better. But I don't think you need any more than you to write the
paper you want to write. I say write it yourself and try to publish it
in Psych Review. If they or some other high profile journal won't
publish it we'll promulgate it via the net (that's where some
collaboration might help). But I think just like brain surgery, the
kind of paper you are considering is best done by you alone. Please do
it; pretty please.

BP: So, what is this big proposal? I think you all see what it will be. Let's
work out the details together. We have discovered that the Earth is not the
center of the universe and that it is round. Surely, that knowledge could
make a difference to others beside ourselves!

RM: Just write the paper. I'll be happy to give you feedback on it and
help with the submission details if necessary; but write it!!

BP: It would be so valuable to have one of two more of your gems. Please do it!!

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2012.11.21.1117 MST)]

Rick Marken (2012.11.20.1720) --

>BP: After my initial proposal and the responses to it, I shelved the idea in
> order to think about it some more. Finally I think I know what direction I
> want to take, and need to find out if there are any collaborators.

RM: Why?!?! You do so well yourself. Why screw it up with collaborators.

Yep, I knew you'd try to wriggle out of it. I understand that you're pretty busy, but hear me out.

My problem is that I am not a psychologist, sociologist, therapist, or any of those things that people spend some intense time learning about to get their higher degrees. I know the PCT side of the project very well, but not the other sides. That's why I need collaborators -- to communicate in terms that professionals in other disciplines care about.

Also, I am not familiar with the literature of these other fields. Each person who might collaborate here knows the literature in some field. You, for example, have very recent information about the baseball-catching literature and probably a lot of literature on perception and motor control, not to mention experimental design.

I can write parts about what PCT has to say about behavior. What I can't write are discussions of what is believed in other fields, what explanation have been offered, what problems have been defined, and so on. I know a little about such things, but not enough to avoid criticism for omissions and misunderstandings. What I have to say needs collaborators like you and the others I'm trying to recruit to find the examples and the relevance that others need to see. All of you understand PCT well enough to do that and to add your own explanations of PCT. Without all of you I just can't write this sort of thing effectively.

What I have in mind is writing a sort of generalized outline, and leaving it to the collaborators to insert their own examples, analyses, specific references to literature, and so on to make a connection between what I say and the end-user. It could make for an interesting format -- a few twerps from me (twerp = tweet + chirp), an interesting commentary, expansion, and interpretation by someone else, more from me, contribution from another collaborator, and so on, with all participants clearly identified. This would obviously be a book and might take us a year to assemble.

I think it would end up being an extremely interesting and important book. We could even invite skeptical and critical contributions, to be answered by all of us. I hope we can Shanghai Bruce Nevin as editor-in-chief, or co-editor with a few others like Dag Forssell.

There are many other details to settle, but this should be enough for potential collaborators to consider. What I'm suggesting is something like inducing labor when the gestation period has gone on for about 40 years too long. Isn't it really about time for PCT to make its entrance?

Best,

Bill P.

Hi, tim --

TC: I remember a while ago Warren had suggested a 2nd edition of Intro to Modern Psych and had started doing a bit of organisational work towards it. Would something like that be what you had in mind?

Maybe so, but I have in mind something suitable for nailing to the door of a church.

Bill

[From Kent McClelland (2012.11.23.15.21 CST)]
Mike Acree (2012.11.20.14.13 PST)
Hi Michael,
It's good to hear your perspective on CSGnet. I've had a really bad cold this week and have been unable to take part in discussions on the net, but I was disappointed to see that no one answered your posting. The kind of project you outline sounds really fascinating to me, and I think a PCT approach might indeed prove more fruitful than the behavioristic, statistical approach that is standard operating procedure in the field of biology (and most other fields).
I've been seeing some signs that the field of biology is ready for some new approaches. First, there is the niche construction literature that I talked about on CSGnet a couple of months ago. And I've just read another book written by a biologist, Louise Barrett, called Beyond the Brain (Princeton University Press 2011), that gives an account of the relationship between the an animal's brain and its environment that is highly compatible with PCT. In fact, she even cites approvingly PCT sources by Powers, Bourbon, and others. Unfortunately from my point of view, she cites Gibson even more and doesn't seem to see any difference between the PCT account and Gibson's.
Good luck on trying to enlist your colleagues in thinking about their research from a PCT perspective, and if you can get anything going in that direction, it sounds to me like it would be perfect for the kind of joint project that Bill has been talking about.

Kent

[From Mike Acree (2012.11.20.14.13 PST)]

I would be interested in taking a small role if I can—thinking, I hasten to add, of biology rather than sociology. I work now at the Osher Center for Integrative Medicine at UCSF, which mostly tackles questions of “mind-body interaction” that would be difficult with any theory or methodology, like effects of meditation on the immune system. Naturally the theory is behavioristic and the methodology statistical, and we see correspondingly few signs of scientific progress. The evidence of control processes operating in the endocrine and immune systems is pretty unmistakable, of course; but my impression is that the investigators, even as they occasionally draw diagrams with circular flow, have no way of thinking about such things, or especially of thinking about studying them. I see some prominent people in these fields in a meeting of a dozen or so every few months; and a couple of them, when I have tried to sound them out about conceptualizing their work in terms of control theory, have seemed interested at least in principle. There are two major catches: (a) I know nothing about any of this myself; and (b) whatever work any of us did on such a project would have to be done extracurricularly. I know first-hand that all of these people are extremely busy with their own government-grant-supported research, and it takes a brave, open-minded one to see more upsides than downsides to looking into an alternative conceptualization, even at an advanced point in a career. My vague hope, for the past year or so, has been that I could engage some of these people long enough to work out some tentative models of regulatory processes, and figure out ways of testing them. (There are some technological and logistic challenges, like continuous monitoring of blood hormone levels over a 24-hour period in the real world, but these may not be the biggest obstacles.) I’m actually not sure whether such a project would fit in with what you and Kent envision; but control in biological systems besides the nervous system seems not to have been much explored, and is something I may put a little more thought into at some point anyway.

Mike

···

On Nov 20, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Acree, Michael wrote:

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 12:21 PM
To: <mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU>CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Joint project?

At 09:16 PM 11/16/2012 +0000, McClelland, Kent wrote:

Hi Bill,

After our exchange on CSGnet, where do we stand on the idea of a possible joint project? I'm still interested, particularly if we can focus it on something shorter than a book-length monograph. It's not clear to me whether Bruce Nevin might also be interested at this point.
BP: I don't know how much longer I will have a clear mind (or even whether I have one now, come to think of it). I want to see some action while I can still appreciate it.

After my initial proposal and the responses to it, I shelved the idea in order to think about it some more. Finally I think I know what direction I want to take, and need to find out if there are any collaborators.

There is one clear message that we have to send to the life sciences concerned with behavior, which in one way or another means all of them. It is that all the behavioral sciences have been pursuing an illusion during their whole history, the behavioral illusion. They have been misled by the actions that organisms use for generating effects that are of importance to them into thinking that those actions are the effects of importance. Even now, and even on CSGnet, this error continues to be made.

In 1960, a paper written largely by me appeared in which these sentences are found:

"Even when we speak of systems which deal in human interrelationships, these complex systems not only do not "care" about what is actually going on in the "real" environment, they cannot even know what is going on "out there." They perform the sole function of bringing their feedback-signals, the only reality they can perceive, to some reference-level, the only goal they know."

If I had been able to write a little better and had known how to demonstrate the truth of that assertion then in the way I can do now, and if there had been any substantial number of behavioral scientists who paused long enough to understand the demonstrations and see what they mean (including Clark and McFarland), the course of all the sciences of life would have undergone an abrupt and wrenching change. Needless to say, that didn't happen 52 years ago and it hasn't happened yet. I want to have one last try at making it happen.

There are now at least a dozen clear computer demonstrations of mine, and as many more by Rick Marken, Tom Bourbon, and Kent McClelland, that show that people control what they perceive and mostly do not perceive or control the externally visible means by which they do it. You can hardly do a control-system experiment without, even inadvertently, proving that. In LCS3, Demos 2-1, 7-2, and 9-1 are particularly germane, with demo 3-1 showing how this is accomplished. There are other demos showing that control works even when there are no perceivable "cues" indicating to the controller the kind, amount, or direction of disturbances, and even when the internal workings of "the plant" are completely unknown to the controller. Other demonstrations, which could easily be reconstructed, have shown that supplying information about causes of disturbances or internal properties of the feedback path has no effect on performance or makes performance worse if not ignored. And still another set of demos shows that multiple control systems can control multiple variables of perception by adjusting multiple means of action in such a way that the external observer cannot see any helpful patterns in the observable environment. These demos always work and (for interactive demos) if the person can accomplish the task, always show the same results regardless of the person operating them. No statistics required.

As far as I can see, our case is clear and airtight. A scientific revolution is desperately needed and completely justifiable.

I have suggested this several times before and have run into immediate resistance within the CSG from those who did not want to go so far as to declare failure of the mainstream approaches. I'm quite willing to let that go unsaid, but not willing to withhold arguments against mainstream interpretations of control phenomena. Of course I have, in the larger world outside PCT, no reputation to preserve, no big past accomplishments to defend, no job to protect, and no ambitions concerning long-term advancement. I don't even have a PhD thesis to treat tenderly. So I have what others may consider to be an unrealistically carefree attitude toward the consequences of saying what I think. OK, I can see the practicalities here.

But I don't want to let them influence me any more. There is a chance that the work I have been devoting most of my attention to for 60 years can make a major difference in improving the way the sciences of life and the social sciences advance from here on. The more of us who participate in the effort I am proposing now, the better the chances of success become. But if I have to, I will try to do it alone.

Nothing less seems worth the effort now. Who knows? We may be the last inhabited planet in the local group, or the parent galaxy, that has not yet had this revolution. The others may be thinking we're just too dumb to get it.

So, what is this big proposal? I think you all see what it will be. Let's work out the details together. We have discovered that the Earth is not the center of the universe and that it is round. Surely, that knowledge could make a difference to others beside ourselves!

Best,

Bill

[FromMike Acree (2012.11.23.14:40 PST)]

Kent McClelland (2012.11.23.15.21 CST)–

···

It’s good to hear your perspective on CSGnet. I’ve had a really bad cold this week and have been unable to take part in discussions on the net, but I was disappointed to see that no one answered your posting. The kind of project you outline
sounds really fascinating to me, and I think a PCT approach might indeed prove more fruitful than the behavioristic, statistical approach that is standard operating procedure in the field of biology (and most other fields).

I’ve been seeing some signs that the field of biology is ready for some new approaches. First, there is the niche construction literature that I talked about on CSGnet a couple of months ago. And I’ve just read another book written by a
biologist, Louise Barrett, called Beyond the Brain (Princeton University Press 2011), that gives an account of the relationship between the an animal’s brain and its environment that is highly compatible with PCT. In fact, she even cites approvingly PCT sources
by Powers, Bourbon, and others. Unfortunately from my point of view, she cites Gibson even more and doesn’t seem to see any difference between the PCT account and Gibson’s.

Good luck on trying to enlist your colleagues in thinking about their research from a PCT perspective, and if you can get anything going in that direction, it sounds to me like it would be perfect for the kind of joint project that Bill
has been talking about.

MA: Many thanks, Kent, for your words of encouragement; I take them as a useful nudge in bumping this project up a notch in my priorities. Thanks also for
the suggestions of other sources, which I shall have a look into.

Mike

[FromMike Acree (2012.12.01.22.21 PST)]

Kent McClelland (2012.11.23.15.21 CST)–

···

I’ve just read another book written by a biologist, Louise Barrett, called Beyond the Brain (Princeton University Press 2011), that gives an account of the relationship between the an animal’s brain and its environment that is highly compatible
with PCT. In fact, she even cites approvingly PCT sources by Powers, Bourbon, and others. Unfortunately from my point of view, she cites Gibson even more and doesn’t seem to see any difference between the PCT account and Gibson’s.

MA: Thanks, Kent, for the reference to Barrett. I was quite surprised to see that she not only cites Powers, Bourbon, and Cziko in passing, but throughout
the book, referring to PCT as though she understood and accepted it. I also agree, however, that she makes somewhat more salient reference to Gibson, as though they were fully compatible. I was wondering, through the first half or two thirds, if she was
going to have anything really new to say, beyond pulling together some interesting biological examples. But it was ultimately a worthwhile read, for me; what she does an especially fine job of is making the case for cognition as embodied—not just in the body,
but in the world—and particularly in showing how much can be done with so little. The extreme example, to my mind, was the stick insects, whose legs apparently operate independently, with no central control or connections between them. I would have thought
that it could hardly take a step without falling down. (On the other hand, learning to walk as a baby, she says, is a matter of learning how to fall forward and catch yourself—just as, she adds, learning to fly is a matter of learning how to throw yourself
at the ground and miss.) That is one area where PCT excels—in showing how complex actions can be executed with simple means, though Barrett doesn’t cite PCT in specifically this context. I suspect that pondering her message about the relationship of organism
and environment—better illustrated with examples than other similar arguments I’ve seen—might make us all a little less uncomfortable with the specter of solipsism.

Mike

[Frm Rick Marken (2012.12.02.0820)]

Mike Acree (2012.12.01.22.21 PST)--

Kent McClelland (2012.11.23.15.21 CST)--

KM: I've just read another book written by a biologist, Louise Barrett, called
Beyond the Brain (Princeton University Press 2011), that gives an account of
the relationship between the an animal's brain and its environment that is
highly compatible with PCT. In fact, she even cites approvingly PCT sources
by Powers, Bourbon, and others. Unfortunately from my point of view, she
cites Gibson even more and doesn't seem to see any difference between the
PCT account and Gibson's.

MA: Thanks, Kent, for the reference to Barrett. I was quite surprised to
see that she not only cites Powers, Bourbon, and Cziko in passing, but
throughout the book, referring to PCT as though she understood and accepted
it. I also agree, however, that she makes somewhat more salient reference
to Gibson, as though they were fully compatible.

Thanks, Mike. I didn't even notice Kent's reference to the book. I
googled Barrett and found that she is at the University of Lethbridge,
British Colombia, which also happens to be the current home of our
2010 PCT Grant award winner Heather Bell, and her adviser, Sergio
Pellis. So Lethbridge seems to be a hotbed of PCT. I wonder if they
all know each other.

Barrett's fascination with Gibson suggests that she is in only the
third stage--bargaining-- of "getting" PCT (there are five stages,
equivalent to the Kubler-Ross stages of grief: denial, anger,
bargaining, depression, acceptance.). I went through all five so I
know. Most psychologists are in stage one -- denial. A few have moved
to anger. In the bargaining stage you try to reconcile PCT with
existing theories: Gibson seems to be the most popular bargaining
chip. I certainly used him (and met him, too; had him over to my house
for a department party when I was in Minnesota). I was in the
bargaining phase for about a year. Most people don't get out of it. Of
course, once I realized that Gibson and PCT had nothing to do with
each other I entered the depression phase. This lasted only briefly
since I am of a basically sanguine disposition and I finally entered
acceptance. I hope Barrett makes it there too.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Mike Acree (2012.12.02.1100 PST)]

Rick Marken (2012.12.02.0820)--

Thanks, Mike. I didn't even notice Kent's reference to the book.

Well, some people have always suspected that you didn't read their posts very carefully. :slight_smile:

I googled Barrett and found that she is at the University of Lethbridge, British Colombia, which also happens to be the current home of our
2010 PCT Grant award winner Heather Bell, and her adviser, Sergio Pellis. So Lethbridge seems to be a hotbed of PCT. I wonder if they all know each other.

I was guessing she was probably connected with some of the British PCTers, though I don't know Bell and Pellis, and don't recognize their names from the book. Barrett is a good thinker to welcome into the fold, in any event, and, I also suspect, a fun person to boot.

Mike

[From Kent McClelland 2012.12.02.1540)]

Your five stages, Rick (2012.12.02.0820), almost make PCT sound like a fate worse than death! Though I suppose it's only grief we're talking about . . . . Thanks for your amusing simile.

Kent

···

On Dec 2, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Richard Marken wrote:

[Frm Rick Marken (2012.12.02.0820)]

Mike Acree (2012.12.01.22.21 PST)--

Kent McClelland (2012.11.23.15.21 CST)--

KM: I've just read another book written by a biologist, Louise Barrett, called
Beyond the Brain (Princeton University Press 2011), that gives an account of
the relationship between the an animal's brain and its environment that is
highly compatible with PCT. In fact, she even cites approvingly PCT sources
by Powers, Bourbon, and others. Unfortunately from my point of view, she
cites Gibson even more and doesn't seem to see any difference between the
PCT account and Gibson's.

MA: Thanks, Kent, for the reference to Barrett. I was quite surprised to
see that she not only cites Powers, Bourbon, and Cziko in passing, but
throughout the book, referring to PCT as though she understood and accepted
it. I also agree, however, that she makes somewhat more salient reference
to Gibson, as though they were fully compatible.

Thanks, Mike. I didn't even notice Kent's reference to the book. I
googled Barrett and found that she is at the University of Lethbridge,
British Colombia, which also happens to be the current home of our
2010 PCT Grant award winner Heather Bell, and her adviser, Sergio
Pellis. So Lethbridge seems to be a hotbed of PCT. I wonder if they
all know each other.

Barrett's fascination with Gibson suggests that she is in only the
third stage--bargaining-- of "getting" PCT (there are five stages,
equivalent to the Kubler-Ross stages of grief: denial, anger,
bargaining, depression, acceptance.). I went through all five so I
know. Most psychologists are in stage one -- denial. A few have moved
to anger. In the bargaining stage you try to reconcile PCT with
existing theories: Gibson seems to be the most popular bargaining
chip. I certainly used him (and met him, too; had him over to my house
for a department party when I was in Minnesota). I was in the
bargaining phase for about a year. Most people don't get out of it. Of
course, once I realized that Gibson and PCT had nothing to do with
each other I entered the depression phase. This lasted only briefly
since I am of a basically sanguine disposition and I finally entered
acceptance. I hope Barrett makes it there too.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2012.12.02.1400)]

Kent McClelland 2012.12.02.1540)--

Your five stages, Rick (2012.12.02.0820), almost make PCT sound like a fate worse than death! Though I suppose it's only grief we're talking about . . . . Thanks for your amusing simile.

I actually had to desert PCT and use two pseudo-theories in order to
give my comedic pseudo- explanation of the difficulty of letting old
beliefs die in order to "get" PCT; Kubler-Ross's stages of grief and
Galen's theory of humors. But that's because, per the famous last
words of someone (Linda thinks it was George S Kaufman) "Dying is
easy. Comedy is hard".

Best

Rick

···

Kent

On Dec 2, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Richard Marken wrote:

[Frm Rick Marken (2012.12.02.0820)]

Mike Acree (2012.12.01.22.21 PST)--

Kent McClelland (2012.11.23.15.21 CST)--

KM: I've just read another book written by a biologist, Louise Barrett, called
Beyond the Brain (Princeton University Press 2011), that gives an account of
the relationship between the an animal's brain and its environment that is
highly compatible with PCT. In fact, she even cites approvingly PCT sources
by Powers, Bourbon, and others. Unfortunately from my point of view, she
cites Gibson even more and doesn't seem to see any difference between the
PCT account and Gibson's.

MA: Thanks, Kent, for the reference to Barrett. I was quite surprised to
see that she not only cites Powers, Bourbon, and Cziko in passing, but
throughout the book, referring to PCT as though she understood and accepted
it. I also agree, however, that she makes somewhat more salient reference
to Gibson, as though they were fully compatible.

Thanks, Mike. I didn't even notice Kent's reference to the book. I
googled Barrett and found that she is at the University of Lethbridge,
British Colombia, which also happens to be the current home of our
2010 PCT Grant award winner Heather Bell, and her adviser, Sergio
Pellis. So Lethbridge seems to be a hotbed of PCT. I wonder if they
all know each other.

Barrett's fascination with Gibson suggests that she is in only the
third stage--bargaining-- of "getting" PCT (there are five stages,
equivalent to the Kubler-Ross stages of grief: denial, anger,
bargaining, depression, acceptance.). I went through all five so I
know. Most psychologists are in stage one -- denial. A few have moved
to anger. In the bargaining stage you try to reconcile PCT with
existing theories: Gibson seems to be the most popular bargaining
chip. I certainly used him (and met him, too; had him over to my house
for a department party when I was in Minnesota). I was in the
bargaining phase for about a year. Most people don't get out of it. Of
course, once I realized that Gibson and PCT had nothing to do with
each other I entered the depression phase. This lasted only briefly
since I am of a basically sanguine disposition and I finally entered
acceptance. I hope Barrett makes it there too.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com