Barb P: Thank you, Rick. Yes, that is more clear. It appeared there was a misunderstanding in Boris’s statement below, part of his paragraph after your statement about autonomy.
“HB: It seems that you wanted to say that at higherst level references are not formed (selected) inside organism but are coming from outside”
HB : I still don’t know what is more clear Barb. But I’d like to »hear« it. I appreaciate your oppinion. But if you don’t mind, I’d rather see if you don’t speak in my name. I think I’m grown up enough to give my oppinion about whether I think it was misunderstaning or not. But I see now that I almost made a mistake. I wrote too much. And Rick used it, but on my luck, he understood it wrong. I’ll have to be more carefull next time.
“RM : But the highest level reference is not selected autonomously and it does determine the selection of all lower level references.”
HB : I don’t understand why you emphasized that highest level reference is not selected autonomously. But in the same time you said that highest level reference determine lower level references, what probably means that lower level references can not be set autonomously and that higher levels can’t get reference signal from lower levels ? So why »but« ? Did you want to tell that all other levels select their references autonomously (through for ex. reorganization, according to your writings), but the highest level is not ? Or you wanted to say that all lower levels are setting their references though higher level references, but highets level is setting it autonomously so that references can be set for lower levels ? Or maybe you wanted to say (according to your further writings) that also higher level is not setting references autonomusly, because references for higher levels are set by reorganization which is initiated from genetic control system, so DOWN-TOP ? It seems that you tried to understand what I was talking about…. J, but did you ?
Or maybe you wanted to say that all lower levels get their references through higher levels, but the highets level references are selected autonomously as there is no other higher level system. The highest level is the highest.
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Is it still confusing you what question mark on 11th level in diagram on p. 191 stand for. So the problem is how on the highest level references are formed what »question mark« represnts ? Many tryed to persuade Bill that there is 12th level or that references are coming form outside. But Bill didn’t alow any of these possibilities.
RM: When I said that our highest level references (goals) are not selected autonomously I was referring to the fact that there are no systems above those at the highest level that can set the references (goals) of these highest level systems.
HB : i don’t understand why did you have to emphasize this one. Bill clearly said that it’s not in conversations. They are on CSGnet.
RM :
In theory, the highest level references are set by the random reorganization process (as discussed in Ch. 5 of “Controlling People”). So they are still set autonomously, if by autonomously you mean set from inside the controller (person). But they are not set autonomously in the sense that they are not set by higher level systems in you (there are none higher) as the means of achieving their goals.This definition of autonomy includes the implication that our goals (references) cannot be set from outside us.
HB :
O.K. You are learning fast. I shouldn’t have given my explanation, because you are obviosuly at least partly adapting your statements to mine. But it’s good if you’ll stay at these statements also in future.
RM: So I can see how this statement alone could be confusing.
HB : At least to say.
RM :
But I think it would take some doing to imagine that I was saying that our highest level goals are set from outside since there is nothing any description of PCT that I have seen that suggests that the references of living control systems can be set from outside the system.
HB :
We don’t need any imagination to understand that you understand that people can be controlled from other people (from outside), what means that they are setting references for other people. I needed almost a year to persuade you that is nonsense. Go see our discussions. They are all on CSGnet. And you could show us your demo, which by your words proved this »fact«. So we don’t need any imagination at least as you are concerned.
Maybe you forgot what you were writing and what you were trying to represent ? Go and refresh a little your memory.
I remember your fisrt statement about controlling between people. You said that : People can control people all the time. But through a long discussion wtih me you changed you oppinion many times as you are doing now. That’s why I think it’s not misunderstanding between us but you are again changing your oppinion as you did through all of our conversations.
RM : But maybe it would have been clearer if I had said: "Our highest level references are not selected systematically by still higher level systems to achieve their higher level goals but, rather, are varied randomly by the reorganization system as the means of resolving intrinsic error.
HB : Yap it would be much clearer if you said like thjis. But the problem is that in the moment you wrote your first statement above, I doubt that you thought like this. Judging  your first statement, I still think that you don’t understand how autonomy works in human organism. But maybe you will some day if the PCT model on p. 191 (B:CP) will be finished.
RM : But all references are selected autonomously, in the sense that they are only selected within the behaving organism itself".
HB : I see that you learned your lesson. Stay at this statement.
RM:
Is that clearer? By the way, I think this explains why kids almost always grow up to practice the same religion (or lack thereof) as their parents. The religion you practice is a system concept perception, per the definition in B:CP. Presumably while we are being raised we reduce intrinsic error that results from conflict with out parents by “going along” with (controlling for) the religious practice they are controlling for. That is, our reorganization system ends up setting the reference for our highest level religious practice control system as the means of reducing intrinsic error.
HB : Do you exactly understand how reorganization which ends up setting the reference for our highest levelworks ?
If I understand your answer right, you are saying (momentally, because we know that you are changing your oppinion very fast) that references for the highest level are set through reorganization process from DOWN-TOP to reduce »intrinsic error«?
Reorganization according to p. 191 (B:CP) is starting in genetic control system in which intrinsic reference signal and perception that is coming from intrinsic quantittes are matched. What is new now, if I understand you right, you are telling that »reorganization« is setting references on all levels of hierarchy and also on highest level. Because reorganization according to p. 191 (B:CP) is not »working« only on 11th level, but equally on all levels, so reorganization can not set selectivelly references just for 11th level (how could it know that it has to do it only on 11th level). See p. 191 (B:CP). How reorganization know at all that it has to set references ?
I didn’t see Bill wrote what you are writing anywhere, and beside that he left »question mark« on 11th level, what means that he didn’t clearly explained how references are formed on 11th level with reorganization or without it. But if I understood you right you changed the meaning of Bill’s reorganization, so that it can set references on 11th level ? So now it’s clear how references are set for the 11th level and »question mrk« can be removed. Is this what you are proposing ?
Removing the »question mark« on the top of 11th level means changing PCT, because it’s clear (according to your writings) that references for the highest level (11th level) are not set autonomously on that level, but by reorganization which is starting in genetic control system, so references are set DOWN-TOP ? Are you sure about this ? Or you just wanted to adapt your oppinion to mine, because I was writing about references which are genetically set. For that you need a lot of knowledge and it’s a lot more complicated than you can imagine.
So maybe you can explain all your discusion though Bill’s new diagram which was shown by Dag ?
It seems Barb, that it was not misunderstanding between me and Rick but it turned out that me and Rick undertand totaly different how references are formed on the highest 11th level.
But I just wanted to be sure what Rick understands. It seems that very little or nothing. But it will be interesting to »hear« his answer ? Â
Best,
Boris