From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
âAssistance at A Distanceâ?
www.nickols.us
From Barb Powers
2018.09.16 0802 MT
I have had that same observation, that people allow the lack of control to be a source of stress. Over the years, I’ve come to find an enormous relief in not having to be in control of things beyond my scope of responsibility. Â
In general, I think it’s interesting that people cling to this desire to be in control of that which out of the scope of their control. I wonder where this is learned, to be the “control freak.” It’s exhausting, a never-ending conflict.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 05:58 Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
“Assistance at A Distance�
www.nickols.us
From Barb Powers 2018.09.16 0811MT
To elaborate, I understand that the feeling of a lack of control in other areas often results in the desire to be more controlling in other areas. I just think that whole phenomenon is interesting.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 08:00 bara0361@gmail.com bara0361@gmail.com wrote:
From Barb Powers
2018.09.16 0802 MT
I have had that same observation, that people allow the lack of control to be a source of stress. Over the years, I’ve come to find an enormous relief in not having to be in control of things beyond my scope of responsibility. Â
In general, I think it’s interesting that people cling to this desire to be in control of that which out of the scope of their control. I wonder where this is learned, to be the “control freak.” It’s exhausting, a never-ending conflict.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 05:58 Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
“Assistance at A Distance�
www.nickols.us
I look into it Warren and get back to you.Â
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
âAssistance at A Distanceâ?
www.nickols.us
[Bruce Nevin 2018-09-17_11:47:19 ET]
… and the wisdom to know the difference.
This gets directly into phenomena of collective control. An example of collective control is the arrival and departure schedule of vehicles of public transportation. This affects passengers’ ability to control other perceptions. Passengers cannot control it directly on a given occasion of arrival and departure, but they do participate in controlling it (or its reliability) by various indirect means over periods of time that span many such occasions, or attempt to.
/Bruce
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 10:19 AM “bara0361@gmail.com” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
From Barb Powers 2018.09.16 0811MT
To elaborate, I understand that the feeling of a lack of control in other areas often results in the desire to be more controlling in other areas. I just think that whole phenomenon is interesting.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 08:00 bara0361@gmail.com bara0361@gmail.com wrote:
From Barb Powers
2018.09.16 0802 MT
I have had that same observation, that people allow the lack of control to be a source of stress. Over the years, I’ve come to find an enormous relief in not having to be in control of things beyond my scope of responsibility. Â
In general, I think it’s interesting that people cling to this desire to be in control of that which out of the scope of their control. I wonder where this is learned, to be the “control freak.” It’s exhausting, a never-ending conflict.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 05:58 Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:
From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
“Assistance at A Distance�
www.nickols.us
[Rick Marken 2018-09-17_09:28:45]
From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
Â
FN: Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
RM: When I teach PCT to clinically oriented people I tell the story of my friend and colleague Norm, from Augsburg College, with whom I had a running debate from the late 1970s though the early 1980s. Norm was a Skinnerian and was skeptical of control theory and I was skeptical of reinforcement theory. Norm was trained as a physiological psychologist but he eventually got a license to do student counseling. After doing it for a couple months he came into my office and basically told me “I think you are right”. The reason for his epiphany was that every one of the students who came into him with a problem said, at some point, “I feel like I have lost control of my life”. So Norm realized that what life is all about is being in control and when we lose control we lose something that’s crucial to leading a psychologically healthy life.Â
RM: Of course, the most common reason for loss of control (in a normally functioning nervous system) is intrapersonal conflict. And this kind of conflict is caused by our own efforts to be in control. So loss of control due to conflict is a result of our own efforts to be in control. This is the “paradox of controlling people” – the fact that being in control can lead to loss of control– which is the theme (and subtitle) of the book “Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human” by yours truly and Tim Carey. Be sure to order a copy (or many copies) today!!
https://www.amazon.com/Controlling-People-Paradoxical-Nature-Being/dp/1922117641
BestÂ
Rick
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
[Eetu Pikkarainen 2018-09-18_09:48:07 UTC]
(I inadvertently send that previous reply only to Fred.)
I have been speculating that there are some three types of reasons for “lack of control� tragedy. What is most important is that there are no strict borders between them. From an other angle one could say that all lack of control is because
of overwhelming disturbance.
As discussed previously we have much (uncountable) more perceptions than we can control. It is just necessary to leave a great part of perceptions uncontrolled. (“We cannot control everything.�) Still those uncontrolled perceptions could
cause errors.
(Absolutely) overwhelming disturbance: Some perceptions, like amount of hours in a day or the clouds in front of the sun, are such that it is just impossible to prevent the possible disturbance notwithstanding the errors they may cause.
No other possibility that resign and let it be.
Internal and external conflicts are in a way special cases of this. There just oneself or another controller causes the disturbance.
Missing or unsuitable means: The most clear and simple case is that we miss a suitable output function or a feedback link. This is really a broad area because (almost) everything affects everything and our control system is hierarchical.
Controlling something can help controlling something else – bbut can also hinder. Most of our means of control are build by others and form vast social-material networks.
The special case that I am specially interested in this third area is of course learning / reorganization. We can learn –“ i.e. reorganization can create for us new functions – to control something we could nott control before. We can learn
to perceive new perceptions and we can learn to control them but still I believe we can never control everything.
Eetu
Probably. But as Barb pointed out, there is a difference between things we can effect and things we can’t.
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 5:57 AM Eetu Pikkarainen eetu.pikkarainen@oulu.fi wrote:
[Eetu Pikkarainen 2018-09-17_09:55:48 UTC]
Well, isn’t it so that if ever someone has troubles and unsuccess in her action, that is a case of lack of control?
Eetu
From: Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 12:53 PM
To: csgnet csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Lack of Control
I look into it Warren and get back to you.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 7:57 AM Fred Nickols fwnickols@gmail.com wrote:
From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
“Assistance at A Distance�
www.nickols.us
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
“Assistance at A Distance�
www.nickols.us
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
“Assistance at A Distance�
www.nickols.us
[Rick Marken 2018-09-18_11:05:04]
[Eetu Pikkarainen 2018-09-18_09:48:07 UTC]
Â
EP: I have been speculating that there are some three types of reasons for âlack of controlâ? tragedy.
 RM: I agree. And I think you got two out three: your number 2) overwhelming disturbance and your number 3) missing or unsuitable means. You number 1) – that we are not able to control all of the perceptions we have – is not really a control problem. It can be described as “lack of control” since we are not controlling these perceptions. But if we are not controlling a perception – that is, if we have no control system organized to control a particular perception – then there is no control problem in the sense that we are not trying to control a perception and failing. So there is no stress.
RM: I would say that the third reason for lack of control is conflict, where the inability to control a variable results from the fact that another control system is trying to control the same variable relative to a different reference specification. I would guess that this is the main reason Fred’s workers say that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. I think this lack of control comes from an internal conflict created by managers requiring workers to do something that the workers don’t want to do. The conflict is that the workers do and don’t want to do what the manager asks; they don’t want to do it because they think it’s a waste of time or dangerous or whatever, but they want to do it because they don’t want to get a bad review or fired or whatever.Â
RM: I think insuperable disturbance is probably the rarest reason for lack of control. But that doesn’t matter to the people, like the victims of the recent hurricane in the Carolinas, who have lost control of their homes and much else due to the insuperable disturbance of the winds and flooding.Â
RM: Lack of control due to missing or unsuitable means is far more common. It results from a lack of training and education. But I think missing or unsuitable means is rarely a cause of loss of control – where you had the ability to control but lose it. I think loss of control is more commonly the result of conflict (and less commonly the result of insuperable disturbance). And I think loss of control causes far more stress than lack of control. For example, my experience is that young children are not stressed out by the fact that they lack the ability to control things like reading and writing. But once we are able to control these things we are stressed out by the loss of our ability to control them. For example, “writer’s block” is a situation where one is unable to control what one used to be able to control – writing. I think this is clearly a case of loss of control due to conflict; a conflict that I know from experience can be very difficult to resolve.
BestÂ
Rick
What is most important is that there are no strict borders between them.Â
From an other angle one could say that all lack of control is because
of overwhelming disturbance. Â
- As discussed previously we have much (uncountable) more perceptions than we can control. It is just necessary to leave a great part of perceptions uncontrolled. (âWe cannot control everything.â?) Still those uncontrolled perceptions could
cause errors.
Â
- (Absolutely) overwhelming disturbance: Some perceptions, like amount of hours in a day or the clouds in front of the sun, are such that it is just impossible to prevent the possible disturbance notwithstanding the errors they may cause.
No other possibility that resign and let it be.
Internal and external conflicts are in a way special cases of this. There just oneself or another controller causes the disturbance.
Â
- Missing or unsuitable means: The most clear and simple case is that we miss a suitable output function or a feedback link. This is really a broad area because (almost) everything affects everything and our control system is hierarchical.
Controlling something can help controlling something else but caan also hinder. Most of our means of control are build by others and form vast social-material networks.
Â
The special case that I am specially interested in this third area is of course learning / reorganization. We can learn â i.e. reorganization can create for us new functions to controol something we could not control before. We can learn
to perceive new perceptions and we can learn to control them but still I believe we can never control everything.
Â
Eetu
Â
From: Fred Nickols fwnickols@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 1:01 PM
Probably. But as Barb pointed out, there is a difference between things we can effect and things we canât.
Â
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 5:57 AM Eetu Pikkarainen eetu.pikkarainen@oulu.fi wrote:
[Eetu Pikkarainen 2018-09-17_09:55:48 UTC]
Well, isnât it so that if ever someone has troubles and unsuccess in her action, that is a case of lack of control?
Eetu
From: Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 12:53 PM
To: csgnet csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Lack of Control
I look into it Warren and get back to you.Â
On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 7:57 AM Fred Nickols fwnickols@gmail.com wrote:
From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
âAssistance at A Distanceâ?
www.nickols.us
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
âAssistance at A Distanceâ?
www.nickols.us
–
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
âAssistance at A Distanceâ?
www.nickols.us
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.â?
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Fred Nickols 2018.09.18.1410 ET
A very useful post, Rick.
Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting LLC
âAssistance at A Distanceâ?
www.nickols.us
Thanks!
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.â?
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
It seems that I didn’t see this charade immediately…
From: Richard Marken (rsmarken@gmail.com via csgnet Mailing List) csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 6:29 PM
To: csgnet csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Lack of Control
[Rick Marken 2018-09-17_09:28:45]
From Fred Nickols 2018.09.16.0757 ET
FN: Over on another list it was pointed out that the number one stressor in the workplace is lack of control. Makes sense to me.
RM: When I teach PCT to clinically oriented people
HB : You teach PCT ??? You probably meant RCT (Ricks’ Control Theory).
RM : …I tell the story oof my friend and colleague Norm, from Augsburg College, with whom I had a running debate from the late 1970s though the early 1980s. Norm was a Skinnerian and was skeptical of control theory and I was skeptical of reinforcement theory. Norm was trained as a physiological psychologist but he eventually got a license to do student counseling. After doing it for a couple months he came into my office and basically told me “I think you are right”. The reason for his epiphany was that every one of the students who came into him with a problem said, at some point, “I feel like I have lost control of my life”. So Norm realized that what life is all about is being in control and when we lose control we lose something that’s crucial to leading a psychologically healthy life.
HB : Well I have troubles understanding what for you means “being in control” and what is for you “lose of control” ? Does being in control means that you “Control your behavior” and “lose of control” means that you can’t control your behavior ???
RM: Of course, the most common reason for loss of control (in a normally functioning nervous system) is intrapersonal conflict.
HB : There can be intrapersonal conflicts which cause “errors” in human nervous system functioning but that’s not the only problem for loosing control. It’s hard to explain to you how nervous system function as you listen only to yourself. And when you do listen to others (what is very rare situation), you take explanation as it is yours without noticing who is author. So again I’ll not try to explain to you where I think you are wrong.
RM : And this kind of conflict is caused by our own efforts to be in control. So loss of control due to conflict is a result of our own efforts to be in control. This is the “paradox of controlling people” – the fact that being in control can lead to loss of control-- which is the theme (and subtitle) of the book “Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human” by yours truly and Tim Carey. Be sure to order a copy (or many copies) today!!
https://www.amazon.com/Controlling-People-Paradoxical-Nature-Being/dp/1922117641
HB : Well you can influence people decission. Cause disturbances and try to control perception of their behavior. But it doesn’t mean that you lose control while influencing them. It can be opposite. You get better control. I beleive you need money so you try to sell as many books as possible, but we know that you are selling wrong and some “stolen” ideas about “controlling people”. So I think it’s not good if people support wrong PCT which could be in fact RCT.
Boris
Best
Rick
–
Richard S. Marken
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
–Antoine de Saint-Exupery