Learning working group

From Fred Nickols (2017.11.19.1434 ET)

Count me in, Rupert. I’ll probably just follow although I do know a bit about human learning, mainly what works and doesn’t work more so than any particular theory.

As a matter of fact, I’m so excited by the prospect that I dashed off a few thoughts. I’m sending them along as being representative of the kind of knowledge and thinking I might be able to offer. If they’re not a good fit with what you have in mind, feel free to say so. I won’t be offended. I know quite well that my practical orientation and the theoretical orientation that dominates this list are often miles apart. So, here are my initial reactions:

First off, memory and imagination, the ability to recall information and images and the ability to envision the way things should look or work is central to learning. I show someone how to disassemble and reassemble a globe valve and, sure enough, they can do it. Some can do it right away and others need a little practice with some commentary from an observer. In PCT terms, we are at the very least talking about establishing reference conditions, goals or standards, that the trainee will strive to meet.

Second, it is often the case in training that we provide what PCTers might call a “disturbance free” environment. We train them to do the basics, free from disruptions and distractions. Later on, the same training might entail gradually adding these factors back in until the trainee can perform a task under realistic conditions.

Our empirical knowledge of how people learn is actually quite good; we can and do successfully train lots of people to do lots of things; we know how to structure their experiences so they learn, so they become capable of doing what we’re out to equip them to do. Our theoretical grasp of how people learn is quite developed but it doesn’t take into account a view of people as living control systems so it falls short on that score, whether from the cognitivists or the behaviorists.

We know also that an individual’s learning can be inhibited by the person’s view of himself. I’ve had more than one of trainees shake his or her head and say, “I can’t do that; it’s beyond me.” I’ve also been able to turn around those negative self-images and get them to believe in themselves. So one factor to consider in all this consists of the roadblocks to learning that the learners themselves erect.

In that vein, I think there is something akin to a structured and organized knowledge base present in the human mind. It is very much affected by knowledge and examples and not everything works the same with everyone. Individuals learn and they do so individually.

When training, it is important to convey or communicate the results to be achieved and the actions that will achieve them. Enter here the practice with feedback mentioned earlier. However, when people are learning on their own – figuring out what to do so to speak – that often requires no small amount of trial and error, of experimentation to see what does and doesn’t work. That, in turn, implies an adequate reference condition for the result. In some cases, the experimenting or trial and error is done simply for the sake of finding out what happens, of identifying the result associated with this or that action. Here, the learning is focused on the relationship between actions and results, between ends and means.

Another area of learning has to do with the judgments we believe others are making about us (e.g., I’m a nice guy, a pain in the neck, competent or incompetent, rude or polite, etc., etc.). Again, we are focused on the relationships between actions and outcomes or results. Enter here some social expectations or reference conditions (e.g., I don’t want to unnecessarily offend anyone, I need to tread carefully around Dick because he goes off very easily, Shirly is easy to work with and I can relax around her, etc., etc.).

So, from a PCT perspective and as a long-time student of learning and human behavior, I’m most interested in how reference conditions for results or outcomes, are established or adopted; how we come to master the actions associated with a particular outcome or set of outcomes; how the PCT hierarchy fits in with all that; and what’s different when our learning is being facilitated from when we’re doing it on our own.

Fred Nickols

···

From: Rupert Young [mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:54 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: LWG: Learning working group

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

Regarding collaborations I think the most useful topic to pursue is learning within PCT. Although there is a general theory of how learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT and there are some demonstrations showing it working within simulations the theory lacks detail and the demos are quite limited. There is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more comprehensive understanding of PCT learning that can be demonstrated in working models, particularly of how perceptual functions arise. The ultimate goal would be, I think, to throw an unorganised hierarchy at a control problem and it would learn a resolution. This would be a great coup in the field of AI and machine learning, as well as in the behaviour of living systems, to show the power of PCT. An initial target application could be something like the mountain car problem.

Therefore, I would like to set up a learning working group for those interested in taking part by building models, contributing expertise or just following. If anyone is interested let me know and we’ll either set up a separate email group or tag subjects on csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

Hi all,

I’m new to the mailing list. I’m an independent researcher in PCT, mostly interested in how it can be applied to strategic thinking, leadership, the smoother functioning of organizations, and even video games. I’d also now like to add learning to that list.

So count me in, too, Rupert. I’ll also probably just follow mostly; although I’d like to contribute where I may.

I have 12+ years teaching English as a second language from the kindergarten level (4 to 5 year olds) to the university level, so I’ve been in the trenches. I’ve also been thinking about how reorganization relates to Max Wertheimer’s productive thinking, abductive reasoning, and how a surprising event can hinder learning and, therefore, adaptation as discussed in (military) deception studies. I’ll sketch out how I think these may relate in a later post.

Best regards,

Joh Orengo

···

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: RE: Learning working group

Local Time: November 19, 2017 10:07 PM

UTC Time: November 19, 2017 8:07 PM

From: fred@nickols.us

To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu

From Fred Nickols (2017.11.19.1434 ET)

Count me in, Rupert. I’ll probably just follow although I do know a bit about human learning, mainly what works and doesn’t work more so than any particular theory.

As a matter of fact, I’m so excited by the prospect that I dashed off a few thoughts. I’m sending them along as being representative of the kind of knowledge and thinking I might be able to offer. If they’re not a good fit with what you have in mind, feel free to say so. I won’t be offended. I know quite well that my practical orientation and the theoretical orientation that dominates this list are often miles apart. So, here are my initial reactions:

First off, memory and imagination, the ability to recall information and images and the ability to envision the way things should look or work is central to learning. I show someone how to disassemble and reassemble a globe valve and, sure enough, they can do it. Some can do it right away and others need a little practice with some commentary from an observer. In PCT terms, we are at the very least talking about establishing reference conditions, goals or standards, that the trainee will strive to meet.

Second, it is often the case in training that we provide what PCTers might call a “disturbance free� environment. We train them to do the basics, free from disruptions and distractions. Later on, the same training might entail gradually adding these factors back in until the trainee can perform a task under realistic conditions.

Our empirical knowledge of how people learn is actually quite good; we can and do successfully train lots of people to do lots of things; we know how to structure their experiences so they learn, so they become capable of doing what we’re out to equip them to do. Our theoretical grasp of how people learn is quite developed but it doesn’t take into account a view of people as living control systems so it falls short on that score, whether from the cognitivists or the behaviorists.

We know also that an individual’s learning can be inhibited by the person’s view of himself. I’ve had more than one of trainees shake his or her head and say, “I can’t do that; it’s beyond me.� I’ve also been able to turn around those negative self-images and get them to believe in themselves. So one factor to consider in all this consists of the roadblocks to learning that the learners themselves erect.

In that vein, I think there is something akin to a structured and organized knowledge base present in the human mind. It is very much affected by knowledge and examples and not everything works the same with everyone. Individuals learn and they do so individually.

When training, it is important to convey or communicate the results to be achieved and the actions that will achieve them. Enter here the practice with feedback mentioned earlier. However, when people are learning on their own – figuring out what to do so to speak – thaat often requires no small amount of trial and error, of experimentation to see what does and doesn’t work. That, in turn, implies an adequate reference condition for the result. In some cases, the experimenting or trial and error is done simply for the sake of finding out what happens, of identifying the result associated with this or that action. Here, the learning is focused on the relationship between actions and results, between ends and means.

Another area of learning has to do with the judgments we believe others are making about us (e.g., I’m a nice guy, a pain in the neck, competent or incompetent, rude or polite, etc., etc.). Again, we are focused on the relationships between actions and outcomes or results. Enter here some social expectations or reference conditions (e.g., I don’t want to unnecessarily offend anyone, I need to tread carefully around Dick because he goes off very easily, Shirly is easy to work with and I can relax around her, etc., etc.).

So, from a PCT perspective and as a long-time student of learning and human behavior, I’m most interested in how reference conditions for results or outcomes, are established or adopted; how we come to master the actions associated with a particular outcome or set of outcomes; how the PCT hierarchy fits in with all that; and what’s different when our learning is being facilitated from when we’re doing it on our own.

Fred Nickols

From: Rupert Young [mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:54 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: LWG: Learning working group

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

Regarding collaborations I think the most useful topic to pursue is learning within PCT. Although there is a general theory of how learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT and there are some demonstrations showing it working within simulations the theory lacks detail and the demos are quite limited. There is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more comprehensive understanding of PCT learning that can be demonstrated in working models, particularly of how perceptual functions arise. The ultimate goal would be, I think, to throw an unorganised hierarchy at a control problem and it would learn a resolution. This would be a great coup in the field of AI and machine learning, as well as in the behaviour of living systems, to show the power of PCT. An initial target application could be something like the mountain car problem.

Therefore, I would like to set up a learning working group for those interested in taking part by building models, contributing expertise or just following. If anyone is interested let me know and we’ll either set up a separate email group or tag subjects on csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

[Eetu Pikkarainen 2017-11-20 9:34]

Rupert,

Count me in, too – at least as a follower. I am an educationalist and, thus, certainly interested in learning, all learning.

···

Eetu Pikkarainen

PhD (Ed.), (Title of) Adjunct Prof., University Lecturer (in Education)

Faculty of Education, University of Oulu, Finland

Research Group: https://wiki.oulu.fi/display/theored

Schools in Transition: Linking Past, Present, and Future in Educational Practice

Edited by Pauli Siljander, Kimmo Kontio and Eetu Pikkarainen

https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/other-books/schools-in-transition/

From: Rupert Young [mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 8:54 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: LWG: Learning working group

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

Regarding collaborations I think the most useful topic to pursue is learning within PCT. Although there is a general theory of how learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT and there are some demonstrations showing it working within simulations the theory
lacks detail and the demos are quite limited. There is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more comprehensive understanding of PCT learning that can be demonstrated in working models, particularly of how perceptual functions arise. The ultimate goal would be,
I think, to throw an unorganised hierarchy at a control problem and it would learn a resolution. This would be a great coup in the field of AI and machine learning, as well as in the behaviour of living systems, to show the power of PCT. An initial target
application could be something like the mountain car problem.

Therefore, I would like to set up a learning working group for those interested in taking part by building models, contributing expertise or just following. If anyone is interested let me know and we’ll either set up a separate email group or tag subjects
on csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 09.35)]

  Great Fred. Things will probably be quite low-level and

technical, to start with anyway, but I’m sure your insight and
experience will be useful in terms of where we want to get to in
the long run.

Rupert

···

On 19/11/2017 20:07, Fred Nickols
wrote:

        From Fred

Nickols (2017.11.19.1434 ET)

        Count me in,

Rupert. I’ll probably just follow although I do know a bit
about human learning, mainly what works and doesn’t work
more so than any particular theory.

        As a matter

of fact, I’m so excited by the prospect that I dashed off a
few thoughts. I’m sending them along as being
representative of the kind of knowledge and thinking I might
be able to offer. If they’re not a good fit with what you
have in mind, feel free to say so. I won’t be offended. I
know quite well that my practical orientation and the
theoretical orientation that dominates this list are often
miles apart. So, here are my initial reactions:

      First off, memory and imagination, the

ability to recall information and images and the ability to
envision the way things should look or work is central to
learning. I show someone how to disassemble and reassemble a
globe valve and, sure enough, they can do it. Some can do it
right away and others need a little practice with some
commentary from an observer. In PCT terms, we are at the very
least talking about establishing reference conditions, goals
or standards, that the trainee will strive to meet.

      Second, it is often the case in training

that we provide what PCTers might call a “disturbance free”
environment. We train them to do the basics, free from
disruptions and distractions. Later on, the same training
might entail gradually adding these factors back in until the
trainee can perform a task under realistic conditions.

      Our empirical knowledge of how people learn

is actually quite good; we can and do successfully train lots
of people to do lots of things; we know how to structure their
experiences so they learn, so they become capable of doing
what we’re out to equip them to do. Our theoretical grasp of
how people learn is quite developed but it doesn’t take into
account a view of people as living control systems so it falls
short on that score, whether from the cognitivists or the
behaviorists.

      We know also that an individual’s learning

can be inhibited by the person’s view of himself. I’ve had
more than one of trainees shake his or her head and say, “I
can’t do that; it’s beyond me.” I’ve also been able to turn
around those negative self-images and get them to believe in
themselves. So one factor to consider in all this consists of
the roadblocks to learning that the learners themselves erect.

      In that vein, I think there is something

akin to a structured and organized knowledge base present in
the human mind. It is very much affected by knowledge and
examples and not everything works the same with everyone.
Individuals learn and they do so individually.

      When training, it is important to convey or

communicate the results to be achieved and the actions that
will achieve them. Enter here the practice with feedback
mentioned earlier. However, when people are learning on their
own – figuring out what to do so to speak – that often
requires no small amount of trial and error, of
experimentation to see what does and doesn’t work. That, in
turn, implies an adequate reference condition for the result.
In some cases, the experimenting or trial and error is done
simply for the sake of finding out what happens, of
identifying the result associated with this or that action.
Here, the learning is focused on the relationship between
actions and results, between ends and means.

      Another area of learning has to do with the

judgments we believe others are making about us (e.g., I’m a
nice guy, a pain in the neck, competent or incompetent, rude
or polite, etc., etc.). Again, we are focused on the
relationships between actions and outcomes or results. Enter
here some social expectations or reference conditions (e.g., I
don’t want to unnecessarily offend anyone, I need to tread
carefully around Dick because he goes off very easily, Shirly
is easy to work with and I can relax around her, etc., etc.).

      So, from a PCT perspective and as a

long-time student of learning and human behavior, I’m most
interested in how reference conditions for results or
outcomes, are established or adopted; how we come to master
the actions associated with a particular outcome or set of
outcomes; how the PCT hierarchy fits in with all that; and
what’s different when our learning is being facilitated from
when we’re doing it on our own.

Fred Nickols

From: Rupert Young
Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:54 PM
LWG: Learning working group

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

      Regarding collaborations I think the most useful topic to

pursue is learning within PCT. Although there is a general
theory of how learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT and
there are some demonstrations showing it working within
simulations the theory lacks detail and the demos are quite
limited. There is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more
comprehensive understanding of PCT learning that can be
demonstrated in working models, particularly of how perceptual
functions arise. The ultimate goal would be, I think, to throw
an unorganised hierarchy at a control problem and it would
learn a resolution. This would be a great coup in the field of
AI and machine learning, as well as in the behaviour of living
systems, to show the power of PCT. An initial target
application could be something like the mountain car problem.

      Therefore, I would like to set up a learning working group

for those interested in taking part by building models,
contributing expertise or just following. If anyone is
interested let me know and we’ll either set up a separate
email group or tag subjects on csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com
Sent:
**To:**csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject:

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 9.45)]

  Hi Joh, welcome to the list, and to the learning group. I'm not

familiar with Wertheimer’s work, though others may be, so feel
free to give a brief overview if you like.

Rupert

···

On 19/11/2017 22:09, Joh Orengo wrote:

Hi all,

    I'm new to the mailing list. I'm an independent researcher in

PCT, mostly interested in how it can be applied to strategic
thinking, leadership, the smoother functioning of organizations,
and even video games. I’d also now like to add learning to that
list.

    So count me in, too, Rupert. I'll also probably just follow

mostly; although I’d like to contribute where I may.

    I have 12+ years teaching English as a second language from

the kindergarten level (4 to 5 year olds) to the university
level, so I’ve been in the trenches. I’ve also been thinking
about how reorganization relates to Max Wertheimer’s productive
thinking, abductive reasoning, and how a surprising event can
hinder learning and, therefore, adaptation as discussed in
(military) deception studies. I’ll sketch out how I think these
may relate in a later post.

Best regards,

Joh Orengo

Sent with ProtonMail
Secure Email.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: RE: Learning working group

Local Time: November 19, 2017 10:07 PM

UTC Time: November 19, 2017 8:07 PM

From:

To:

          From Fred Nickols

(2017.11.19.1434 ET)

Â

          Count me in, Rupert.  I’ll

probably just follow although I do know a bit about human
learning, mainly what works and doesn’t work more so than
any particular theory.

Â

          As a matter of fact, I’m so

excited by the prospect that I dashed off a few thoughts.Â
I’m sending them along as being representative of the kind
of knowledge and thinking I might be able to offer. If
they’re not a good fit with what you have in mind, feel
free to say so. I won’t be offended. I know quite well
that my practical orientation and the theoretical
orientation that dominates this list are often miles
apart. So, here are my initial reactions:

Â

        First off, memory and imagination, the

ability to recall information and images and the ability to
envision the way things should look or work is central to
learning. I show someone how to disassemble and reassemble
a globe valve and, sure enough, they can do it. Some can do
it right away and others need a little practice with some
commentary from an observer. In PCT terms, we are at the
very least talking about establishing reference conditions,
goals or standards, that the trainee will strive to meet.

Â

        Second, it is often the case in training

that we provide what PCTers might call a “disturbance free�
environment. We train them to do the basics, free from
disruptions and distractions. Later on, the same training
might entail gradually adding these factors back in until
the trainee can perform a task under realistic conditions.

        Our empirical knowledge of how people

learn is actually quite good; we can and do successfully
train lots of people to do lots of things; we know how to
structure their experiences so they learn, so they become
capable of doing what we’re out to equip them to do. Our
theoretical grasp of how people learn is quite developed but
it doesn’t take into account a view of people as living
control systems so it falls short on that score, whether
from the cognitivists or the behaviorists.

        We know also that an individual’s

learning can be inhibited by the person’s view of himself.Â
I’ve had more than one of trainees shake his or her head and
say, “I can’t do that; it’s beyond me.� I’ve also been able
to turn around those negative self-images and get them to
believe in themselves. So one factor to consider in all
this consists of the roadblocks to learning that the
learners themselves erect.

Â

        In that vein, I think there is something

akin to a structured and organized knowledge base present in
the human mind. It is very much affected by knowledge and
examples and not everything works the same with everyone.Â
Individuals learn and they do so individually.

Â

        When training, it is important to convey

or communicate the results to be achieved and the actions
that will achieve them. Enter here the practice with
feedback mentioned earlier. However, when people are
learning on their own – figuring out what to do so to sspeak
– that often requires no small amount of trial and erroor, of
experimentation to see what does and doesn’t work. That, in
turn, implies an adequate reference condition for the
result. In some cases, the experimenting or trial and error
is done simply for the sake of finding out what happens, of
identifying the result associated with this or that action.Â
Here, the learning is focused on the relationship between
actions and results, between ends and means.

Â

        Another area of learning has to do with

the judgments we believe others are making about us (e.g.,
I’m a nice guy, a pain in the neck, competent or
incompetent, rude or polite, etc., etc.). Again, we are
focused on the relationships between actions and outcomes or
results. Enter here some social expectations or reference
conditions (e.g., I don’t want to unnecessarily offend
anyone, I need to tread carefully around Dick because he
goes off very easily, Shirly is easy to work with and I can
relax around her, etc., etc.).

Â

        So, from a PCT perspective and as a

long-time student of learning and human behavior, I’m most
interested in how reference conditions for results or
outcomes, are established or adopted; how we come to master
the actions associated with a particular outcome or set of
outcomes; how the PCT hierarchy fits in with all that; and
what’s different when our learning is being facilitated from
when we’re doing it on our own.

Â

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

From: Rupert Young
Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:54 PM
LWG: Learning working group

Â

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

        Regarding collaborations I think the most useful topic to

pursue is learning within PCT. Although there is a general
theory of how learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT
and there are some demonstrations showing it working within
simulations the theory lacks detail and the demos are quite
limited. There is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more
comprehensive understanding of PCT learning that can be
demonstrated in working models, particularly of how
perceptual functions arise. The ultimate goal would be, I
think, to throw an unorganised hierarchy at a control
problem and it would learn a resolution. This would be a
great coup in the field of AI and machine learning, as well
as in the behaviour of living systems, to show the power of
PCT. An initial target application could be something like
the mountain car problem.

        Therefore, I would like to set up a learning working group

for those interested in taking part by building models,
contributing expertise or just following. If anyone is
interested let me know and we’ll either set up a separate
email group or tag subjects on csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

Â

fred@nickols.us
csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com
Sent:
**To:**csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject:

[JK 2017.11.20 2255 NZT]

Please include me as well.

Cheers

···

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com wrote:

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 9.45)]

  Hi Joh, welcome to the list, and to the learning group. I'm not

familiar with Wertheimer’s work, though others may be, so feel
free to give a brief overview if you like.

Rupert

On 19/11/2017 22:09, Joh Orengo wrote:

Hi all,

    I'm new to the mailing list. I'm an independent researcher in

PCT, mostly interested in how it can be applied to strategic
thinking, leadership, the smoother functioning of organizations,
and even video games. I’d also now like to add learning to that
list.

    So count me in, too, Rupert. I'll also probably just follow

mostly; although I’d like to contribute where I may.

    I have 12+ years teaching English as a second language from

the kindergarten level (4 to 5 year olds) to the university
level, so I’ve been in the trenches. I’ve also been thinking
about how reorganization relates to Max Wertheimer’s productive
thinking, abductive reasoning, and how a surprising event can
hinder learning and, therefore, adaptation as discussed in
(military) deception studies. I’ll sketch out how I think these
may relate in a later post.

Best regards,

Joh Orengo

Sent with ProtonMail
Secure Email.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: RE: Learning working group

Local Time: November 19, 2017 10:07 PM

UTC Time: November 19, 2017 8:07 PM

From: fred@nickols.us

To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu

          From Fred Nickols

(2017.11.19.1434 ET)

Â

          Count me in, Rupert.  I’ll

probably just follow although I do know a bit about human
learning, mainly what works and doesn’t work more so than
any particular theory.

Â

          As a matter of fact, I’m so

excited by the prospect that I dashed off a few thoughts.Â
I’m sending them along as being representative of the kind
of knowledge and thinking I might be able to offer. If
they’re not a good fit with what you have in mind, feel
free to say so. I won’t be offended. I know quite well
that my practical orientation and the theoretical
orientation that dominates this list are often miles
apart. So, here are my initial reactions:

Â

        First off, memory and imagination, the

ability to recall information and images and the ability to
envision the way things should look or work is central to
learning. I show someone how to disassemble and reassemble
a globe valve and, sure enough, they can do it. Some can do
it right away and others need a little practice with some
commentary from an observer. In PCT terms, we are at the
very least talking about establishing reference conditions,
goals or standards, that the trainee will strive to meet.

Â

        Second, it is often the case in training

that we provide what PCTers might call a “disturbance free�
environment. We train them to do the basics, free from
disruptions and distractions. Later on, the same training
might entail gradually adding these factors back in until
the trainee can perform a task under realistic conditions.

        Our empirical knowledge of how people

learn is actually quite good; we can and do successfully
train lots of people to do lots of things; we know how to
structure their experiences so they learn, so they become
capable of doing what we’re out to equip them to do. Our
theoretical grasp of how people learn is quite developed but
it doesn’t take into account a view of people as living
control systems so it falls short on that score, whether
from the cognitivists or the behaviorists.

        We know also that an individual’s

learning can be inhibited by the person’s view of himself.Â
I’ve had more than one of trainees shake his or her head and
say, “I can’t do that; it’s beyond me.� I’ve also been able
to turn around those negative self-images and get them to
believe in themselves. So one factor to consider in all
this consists of the roadblocks to learning that the
learners themselves erect.

Â

        In that vein, I think there is something

akin to a structured and organized knowledge base present in
the human mind. It is very much affected by knowledge and
examples and not everything works the same with everyone.Â
Individuals learn and they do so individually.

Â

        When training, it is important to convey

or communicate the results to be achieved and the actions
that will achieve them. Enter here the practice with
feedback mentioned earlier. However, when people are
learning on their own – figuring out what to do so to sspeak
– that often requires no small amount of trial and erroor, of
experimentation to see what does and doesn’t work. That, in
turn, implies an adequate reference condition for the
result. In some cases, the experimenting or trial and error
is done simply for the sake of finding out what happens, of
identifying the result associated with this or that action.Â
Here, the learning is focused on the relationship between
actions and results, between ends and means.

Â

        Another area of learning has to do with

the judgments we believe others are making about us (e.g.,
I’m a nice guy, a pain in the neck, competent or
incompetent, rude or polite, etc., etc.). Again, we are
focused on the relationships between actions and outcomes or
results. Enter here some social expectations or reference
conditions (e.g., I don’t want to unnecessarily offend
anyone, I need to tread carefully around Dick because he
goes off very easily, Shirly is easy to work with and I can
relax around her, etc., etc.).

Â

        So, from a PCT perspective and as a

long-time student of learning and human behavior, I’m most
interested in how reference conditions for results or
outcomes, are established or adopted; how we come to master
the actions associated with a particular outcome or set of
outcomes; how the PCT hierarchy fits in with all that; and
what’s different when our learning is being facilitated from
when we’re doing it on our own.

Â

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

From: Rupert Young
[mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:54 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: LWG: Learning working group

Â

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

        Regarding collaborations I think the most useful topic to

pursue is learning within PCT. Although there is a general
theory of how learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT
and there are some demonstrations showing it working within
simulations the theory lacks detail and the demos are quite
limited. There is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more
comprehensive understanding of PCT learning that can be
demonstrated in working models, particularly of how
perceptual functions arise. The ultimate goal would be, I
think, to throw an unorganised hierarchy at a control
problem and it would learn a resolution. This would be a
great coup in the field of AI and machine learning, as well
as in the behaviour of living systems, to show the power of
PCT. An initial target application could be something like
the mountain car problem.

        Therefore, I would like to set up a learning working group

for those interested in taking part by building models,
contributing expertise or just following. If anyone is
interested let me know and we’ll either set up a separate
email group or tag subjects on csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

Â

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 10.45)]

  Thanks to all those who have responded. So far I've registered

interest from Eetu, Fred, Leeane, Joh, Sean, Martin, Richard and
Warren.

Rupert

···

On 20/11/2017 09:56, John Kirkland
wrote:

[JK 2017.11.20 2255 NZT]

Please include me as well.

Cheers

      On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 10:47 PM,

Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com
wrote:

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 9.45)]

            Hi Joh, welcome to the list, and to the learning group.

I’m not familiar with Wertheimer’s work, though others
may be, so feel free to give a brief overview if you
like.

Rupert

                On

19/11/2017 22:09, Joh Orengo wrote:

Hi all,

                  I'm new to the mailing list. I'm an independent

researcher in PCT, mostly interested in how it can
be applied to strategic thinking, leadership, the
smoother functioning of organizations, and even
video games. I’d also now like to add learning to
that list.

                  So count me in, too, Rupert. I'll also probably

just follow mostly; although I’d like to
contribute where I may.

                  I have 12+ years teaching English as a second

language from the kindergarten level (4 to 5 year
olds) to the university level, so I’ve been in the
trenches. I’ve also been thinking about how
reorganization relates to Max Wertheimer’s
productive thinking, abductive reasoning, and how
a surprising event can hinder learning and,
therefore, adaptation as discussed in (military)
deception studies. I’ll sketch out how I think
these may relate in a later post.

Best regards,

Joh Orengo

                    Sent

with ProtonMail
Secure Email.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: RE: Learning working group

Local Time: November 19, 2017 10:07 PM

UTC Time: November 19, 2017 8:07 PM

From: fred@nickols.us

To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu

                        From Fred Nickols

(2017.11.19.1434 ET)

Â

                        Count me in,

Rupert. I’ll probably just follow although
I do know a bit about human learning, mainly
what works and doesn’t work more so than any
particular theory.

Â

                        As a matter of

fact, I’m so excited by the prospect that I
dashed off a few thoughts. I’m sending them
along as being representative of the kind of
knowledge and thinking I might be able to
offer. If they’re not a good fit with what
you have in mind, feel free to say so. I
won’t be offended. I know quite well that
my practical orientation and the theoretical
orientation that dominates this list are
often miles apart. So, here are my initial
reactions:

Â

                      First off, memory and

imagination, the ability to recall information
and images and the ability to envision the way
things should look or work is central to
learning. I show someone how to disassemble
and reassemble a globe valve and, sure enough,
they can do it. Some can do it right away and
others need a little practice with some
commentary from an observer. In PCT terms, we
are at the very least talking about
establishing reference conditions, goals or
standards, that the trainee will strive to
meet.

Â

                      Second, it is often the

case in training that we provide what PCTers
might call a “disturbance freeâ€? environment.Â
We train them to do the basics, free from
disruptions and distractions. Later on, the
same training might entail gradually adding
these factors back in until the trainee can
perform a task under realistic conditions.

                      Our empirical knowledge of

how people learn is actually quite good; we
can and do successfully train lots of people
to do lots of things; we know how to structure
their experiences so they learn, so they
become capable of doing what we’re out to
equip them to do. Our theoretical grasp of
how people learn is quite developed but it
doesn’t take into account a view of people as
living control systems so it falls short on
that score, whether from the cognitivists or
the behaviorists.

                      We know also that an

individual’s learning can be inhibited by the
person’s view of himself. I’ve had more than
one of trainees shake his or her head and say,
“I can’t do that; it’s beyond me.� I’ve also
been able to turn around those negative
self-images and get them to believe in
themselves. So one factor to consider in all
this consists of the roadblocks to learning
that the learners themselves erect.

Â

                      In that vein, I think there

is something akin to a structured and
organized knowledge base present in the human
mind. It is very much affected by knowledge
and examples and not everything works the same
with everyone. Individuals learn and they do
so individually.

Â

                      When training, it is

important to convey or communicate the results
to be achieved and the actions that will
achieve them. Enter here the practice with
feedback mentioned earlier. However, when
people are learning on their own – figuring
out what to do so to speak – that often
requires no small amount of trial and error,
of experimentation to see what does and
doesn’t work. That, in turn, implies an
adequate reference condition for the result.Â
In some cases, the experimenting or trial and
error is done simply for the sake of finding
out what happens, of identifying the result
associated with this or that action. Here,
the learning is focused on the relationship
between actions and results, between ends and
means.

Â

                      Another area of learning

has to do with the judgments we believe others
are making about us (e.g., I’m a nice guy, a
pain in the neck, competent or incompetent,
rude or polite, etc., etc.). Again, we are
focused on the relationships between actions
and outcomes or results. Enter here some
social expectations or reference conditions
(e.g., I don’t want to unnecessarily offend
anyone, I need to tread carefully around Dick
because he goes off very easily, Shirly is
easy to work with and I can relax around her,
etc., etc.).

Â

                      So, from a PCT perspective

and as a long-time student of learning and
human behavior, I’m most interested in how
reference conditions for results or outcomes,
are established or adopted; how we come to
master the actions associated with a
particular outcome or set of outcomes; how the
PCT hierarchy fits in with all that; and
what’s different when our learning is being
facilitated from when we’re doing it on our
own.

Â

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

From: Rupert Young [mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com ]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017
1:54 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: LWG: Learning working
group

Â

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

                      Regarding collaborations I think the most

useful topic to pursue is learning within PCT.
Although there is a general theory of how
learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT
and there are some demonstrations showing it
working within simulations the theory lacks
detail and the demos are quite limited. There
is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more
comprehensive understanding of PCT learning
that can be demonstrated in working models,
particularly of how perceptual functions
arise. The ultimate goal would be, I think, to
throw an unorganised hierarchy at a control
problem and it would learn a resolution. This
would be a great coup in the field of AI and
machine learning, as well as in the behaviour
of living systems, to show the power of PCT.
An initial target application could be
something like the mountain car problem.

                      Therefore, I would like to set up a learning

working group for those interested in taking
part by building models, contributing
expertise or just following. If anyone is
interested let me know and we’ll either set up
a separate email group or tag subjects on
csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

Â

[From: Richard Pfau (2017.11.20 09:15 EST)

Count me in, probably more as an interested follower, but if I can make meaningful contributions, I’ll try to do so.

···

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 5:48 AM, Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com wrote:

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 10.45)]

  Thanks to all those who have responded. So far I've registered

interest from Eetu, Fred, Leeane, Joh, Sean, Martin, Richard and
Warren.

Rupert

  On 20/11/2017 09:56, John Kirkland

wrote:

[JK 2017.11.20 2255 NZT]

Please include me as well.

Cheers

      On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 10:47 PM,

Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com
wrote:

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 9.45)]

            Hi Joh, welcome to the list, and to the learning group.

I’m not familiar with Wertheimer’s work, though others
may be, so feel free to give a brief overview if you
like.

Rupert

                On

19/11/2017 22:09, Joh Orengo wrote:

Hi all,

                  I'm new to the mailing list. I'm an independent

researcher in PCT, mostly interested in how it can
be applied to strategic thinking, leadership, the
smoother functioning of organizations, and even
video games. I’d also now like to add learning to
that list.

                  So count me in, too, Rupert. I'll also probably

just follow mostly; although I’d like to
contribute where I may.

                  I have 12+ years teaching English as a second

language from the kindergarten level (4 to 5 year
olds) to the university level, so I’ve been in the
trenches. I’ve also been thinking about how
reorganization relates to Max Wertheimer’s
productive thinking, abductive reasoning, and how
a surprising event can hinder learning and,
therefore, adaptation as discussed in (military)
deception studies. I’ll sketch out how I think
these may relate in a later post.

Best regards,

Joh Orengo

                    Sent

with ProtonMail
Secure Email.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: RE: Learning working group

Local Time: November 19, 2017 10:07 PM

UTC Time: November 19, 2017 8:07 PM

From: fred@nickols.us

To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu

                        From Fred Nickols

(2017.11.19.1434 ET)

Â

                        Count me in,

Rupert. I’ll probably just follow although
I do know a bit about human learning, mainly
what works and doesn’t work more so than any
particular theory.

Â

                        As a matter of

fact, I’m so excited by the prospect that I
dashed off a few thoughts. I’m sending them
along as being representative of the kind of
knowledge and thinking I might be able to
offer. If they’re not a good fit with what
you have in mind, feel free to say so. I
won’t be offended. I know quite well that
my practical orientation and the theoretical
orientation that dominates this list are
often miles apart. So, here are my initial
reactions:

Â

                      First off, memory and

imagination, the ability to recall information
and images and the ability to envision the way
things should look or work is central to
learning. I show someone how to disassemble
and reassemble a globe valve and, sure enough,
they can do it. Some can do it right away and
others need a little practice with some
commentary from an observer. In PCT terms, we
are at the very least talking about
establishing reference conditions, goals or
standards, that the trainee will strive to
meet.

Â

                      Second, it is often the

case in training that we provide what PCTers
might call a “disturbance freeâ€? environment.Â
We train them to do the basics, free from
disruptions and distractions. Later on, the
same training might entail gradually adding
these factors back in until the trainee can
perform a task under realistic conditions.

                      Our empirical knowledge of

how people learn is actually quite good; we
can and do successfully train lots of people
to do lots of things; we know how to structure
their experiences so they learn, so they
become capable of doing what we’re out to
equip them to do. Our theoretical grasp of
how people learn is quite developed but it
doesn’t take into account a view of people as
living control systems so it falls short on
that score, whether from the cognitivists or
the behaviorists.

                      We know also that an

individual’s learning can be inhibited by the
person’s view of himself. I’ve had more than
one of trainees shake his or her head and say,
“I can’t do that; it’s beyond me.� I’ve also
been able to turn around those negative
self-images and get them to believe in
themselves. So one factor to consider in all
this consists of the roadblocks to learning
that the learners themselves erect.

Â

                      In that vein, I think there

is something akin to a structured and
organized knowledge base present in the human
mind. It is very much affected by knowledge
and examples and not everything works the same
with everyone. Individuals learn and they do
so individually.

Â

                      When training, it is

important to convey or communicate the results
to be achieved and the actions that will
achieve them. Enter here the practice with
feedback mentioned earlier. However, when
people are learning on their own – figuriing
out what to do so to speak – that often
requires no small amount of trial and error,
of experimentation to see what does and
doesn’t work. That, in turn, implies an
adequate reference condition for the result.Â
In some cases, the experimenting or trial and
error is done simply for the sake of finding
out what happens, of identifying the result
associated with this or that action. Here,
the learning is focused on the relationship
between actions and results, between ends and
means.

Â

                      Another area of learning

has to do with the judgments we believe others
are making about us (e.g., I’m a nice guy, a
pain in the neck, competent or incompetent,
rude or polite, etc., etc.). Again, we are
focused on the relationships between actions
and outcomes or results. Enter here some
social expectations or reference conditions
(e.g., I don’t want to unnecessarily offend
anyone, I need to tread carefully around Dick
because he goes off very easily, Shirly is
easy to work with and I can relax around her,
etc., etc.).

Â

                      So, from a PCT perspective

and as a long-time student of learning and
human behavior, I’m most interested in how
reference conditions for results or outcomes,
are established or adopted; how we come to
master the actions associated with a
particular outcome or set of outcomes; how the
PCT hierarchy fits in with all that; and
what’s different when our learning is being
facilitated from when we’re doing it on our
own.

Â

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

From: Rupert Young [mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com ]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017
1:54 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: LWG: Learning working
group

Â

[From Rupert Young (2017.11.19 18.55)]

                      Regarding collaborations I think the most

useful topic to pursue is learning within PCT.
Although there is a general theory of how
learning, by reorganisation, happens in PCT
and there are some demonstrations showing it
working within simulations the theory lacks
detail and the demos are quite limited. There
is, therefore, a lot of scope for a more
comprehensive understanding of PCT learning
that can be demonstrated in working models,
particularly of how perceptual functions
arise. The ultimate goal would be, I think, to
throw an unorganised hierarchy at a control
problem and it would learn a resolution. This
would be a great coup in the field of AI and
machine learning, as well as in the behaviour
of living systems, to show the power of PCT.
An initial target application could be
something like the mountain car problem.

                      Therefore, I would like to set up a learning

working group for those interested in taking
part by building models, contributing
expertise or just following. If anyone is
interested let me know and we’ll either set up
a separate email group or tag subjects on
csgnet with “LWG”.

Regards,
Rupert

Â

[From Frank Lenk (2017.11.20 09.55)]

As I had to change the direction of my dissertation due to the fact I couldn’t crack on my own how to create and then reorganize perceptual functions, at least the perceptual functions that relate to racism, I am intensely interested in this topic and would at least like to follow its progress.

Frank

    Rupert,
    
    > [From Rupert Young (2017.11.20 10.15)]
    >
    > (Martin Taylor 2017.11.19.14.14]
    >> ....
    >>
    >> I think the first question to ask would be what the intrinsic
    >> variables might be, because the robot won't learn if it doesn't have
    >> any indication that its learning is of some benefit. I don't think
    >> simple quality of control in itself is sufficient, but it's probably
    >> necessary.
    >
    > Sure. But what is intrinsic error; is it not error from another
    > (higher) system?
    >
    No, it is a quite separate system according to Powers. In living things
    it includes variables such as blood oxygen level, hormonal levels, lots
    of physiological variables I don't know of, but not perceived within the
    perceptual control hierarchy. Apart from that kind of thing, the basic
    description of "intrinsic variable" is that it is a variable that causes
    you potentially life-threatening problems if it goes astray, or even
    more fundamentally it is a variable that reduces the probability of the
    organism propagating its genes to descendants when its value departs
    from its (ever-changing) optimum value.
    
    Robots are different, unless you conceive their generations as
    evolutionary (which I guess they are in a sense). In the case of a robot
    designed for a purpose, that purpose is in the designer, but to the
    robot it is an intrinsic variable, imperceptible. So long as the robot
    doesn't fulfil its purpose, the designer keeps reorganising
    (redesigning) it.
    
    That said, I think we can prove that quality of control can act like an
    intrinsic variable. In any event, in Bill's simulations, like the Arm 2
    demo, quality of control is the only intrinsic variable. Behind that,
    though, there was the intrinsic variable provided by Bill, the purpose
    that the arm demonstrate the power of reorganization.
    
    An autonomous robot must have intrinsic variables to determine how the
    speed of reorganization is distributed over its hierarchy. Some people
    have suggested Asimov's Three Laws as possibilities. A guided robot may
    have its intrinsic variables within the designer, but I think one has to
    be careful, especially in this project, to distinguish the cases.
    
    Your purpose as I understand it is to get a robot to learn something
    without the designer saying, in effect, "that's good, keep going that
    way" or "That's worse, change your direction of modification." The robot
    has to determine for itself whether its "internal e-coli" keeps going or
    randomly changes direction in its internal structure modification
    process (reorganization). To do that, it must have intrinsic variables
    that determine by their fidelity to their reference values how fast
    reorganization should proceed (how quickly "keep going" a or "tumble"
    events occur).
    
    Martin

···

On 11/20/17, 9:35 AM, "Martin Taylor" <mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net> wrote:
    On 2017/11/20 5:13 AM, Rupert Young wrote: