Locke, Goal-seeking, and PCT

[From Bill Powers (2008.09.28.0330 MDT)]

Spurred by some comments by John Bargh (Yale University), I recently
looked up some old letters Mary wrote, and some papers I wrote, in
connection with Edwin Locke's 1993 article, "The emperor is naked," a
hatchet job aimed at my work. I wrote a series of responses, none of
which were ever submitted for publication. The first, called Emperor,
and the last, Emperor9, are attached. I apologize for the duplication
of the earlier paper for some of you. The first paper last modified
on September 19 of 1994 is highly defensive, and the last written in
November 20, 1994 is mostly constructive. I wish I had combined them
and sent them to some journal, but I didn't. I have written and
discarded lots of things like these -- written in heat, and discarded
when I realized how little effect they would have.

T here are no references -- they were planned but never collected together.

While I'm at it, I will attach another paper I came across while
looking for the Locke stuff. It's somewhat related, but in any event
I decided I still like it, so here it is.

Best,

Bill P.

FREEWILL.doc (85.5 KB)

EMPEROR9.doc (113 KB)

EMPEROR.doc (139 KB)

bill,

thank you so very much for emailing these papers. i consider them a gift, as they are rich in earlier ideas and, no doubt, will enlighten our understanding of perceptual control theory. i awoke to these and metaphorically, am reminded how inspired i am by your ongoing work.

wishing you are well and hope to speak with and see you soon.

btw, your new book continues to elucidate my ongoing understanding of pct and its profound significance in conceptualizing, understanding, and guiding human behavior.

gary padover

···

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Hello, Gary --

Thank you so much for those words of support and encouragement. Your good opinion means a lot to me. We will certainly have much more to say to each other.

Best regards,

Bill

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.28.1250)]

Bill Powers (2008.09.28.0330 MDT)--

Spurred by some comments by John Bargh (Yale University)

What comments were those? When and where were they made?

I look forward to reading the papers. I think the one on free will
will be helpful in my upcoming seminar (which I am still doing byt he
seat of my pants;-))

Best

Rick

···

I recently looked
up some old letters Mary wrote, and some papers I wrote, in connection with
Edwin Locke's 1993 article, "The emperor is naked," a hatchet job aimed at
my work. I wrote a series of responses, none of which were ever submitted
for publication. The first, called Emperor, and the last, Emperor9, are
attached. I apologize for the duplication of the earlier paper for some of
you. The first paper last modified on September 19 of 1994 is highly
defensive, and the last written in November 20, 1994 is mostly constructive.
I wish I had combined them and sent them to some journal, but I didn't. I
have written and discarded lots of things like these -- written in heat, and
discarded when I realized how little effect they would have.

T here are no references -- they were planned but never collected together.

While I'm at it, I will attach another paper I came across while looking for
the Locke stuff. It's somewhat related, but in any event I decided I still
like it, so here it is.

Best,

Bill P.

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

(Gavin Ritz 2008.09.29.9.30NZT)

[From Bill Powers (2008.09.28.0330 MDT)]

I thought that Clothes for the Emperor was rather well presented actually, not at all defensive and is one of the better pieces on PCT I have read. (I actually have read a great deal of PCT readings).

“All that HPCT can offer there is an architecture that looks able to explain a great deal that otherwise would simply have to be taken as is, without understanding it. HPCT raises some new questions: what variables do people perceive at these higher levels; with respect to what reference states are these variables controlled; what are the static and dynamic characteristics of the related control systems? None of these questions can be answered theoretically; only observation can answer them.”

“Perceptual control theory or PCT, as part of a more general hierarchical perceptual control theory or HPCT, represents the organization of behavior as a hierarchy of goal-seeking control systems with many levels and many systems operating in parallel at each level.” Your comments.

I do believe that Elliot Jaques RO and my work on motivation, tension and power could add significantly to this
theory.

Regards
Gavin

[From Bill Powers (2008.09.28.1456 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2008.09.28.1250) --

> Spurred by some comments by John Bargh (Yale University)

What comments were those? When and where were they made?

He wrote to Mansell and Mansell forwarded to me.

Bill

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.28.1415)]

Bill Powers (2008.09.28.1456 MDT)]

What comments were those? When and where were they made?

He wrote to Mansell and Mansell forwarded to me.

Could you share what he wrote to Warren? I'm interested because I'm
always interested when a "real" psychologist takes some interest in
your work (or others' comments on it).

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[from Gary Cziko 2008.09.28 16:41 CDT]

Bill said:

Spurred by some comments by John Bargh (Yale University)

Hm, native of Champaign, IL: http://bargh.socialpsychology.org/

–Gary

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.28.1500)]

[from Gary Cziko 2008.09.28 16:41 CDT]

Bill said:

Spurred by some comments by John Bargh (Yale University)

Hm, native of Champaign, IL: http://bargh.socialpsychology.org/

Thanks, Gary. I looked at some of his stuff and I see it's the SOS
(same ol' s***). It's the environment in control, according to Bargh.
So I expect him to change completely once he reads Bill's essays;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2008.09.28.1652 MDT)]

Gavin Ritz 2008.09.29.9.30NZT --

I do believe that Elliot Jaques RO and my work on motivation, tension and power could add significantly to this theory.

Excellent. Can you write up something telling us what it adds?

Best,

Bill P.

Hello, John and all --

Well, John, that clears up one minor worry -- whether all this unrequested information and opinion would be a presumption on your tolerance. I just bulldozeded my way in, while Warren wondered if this was entirely diplomatic. Welcome.

I've never met Charles Carver -- invited him to attend a Control Systems Group meeting some time back, but he couldn't make it and I think may have hestitated to risk exposure to what he may have mistaken for a group of nit-picking engineers (we're anything but). I hope you'll consider showing your face at one of our meetings. We're in process of going fully international now so the question of the next meeting (which would be the 25th since the first in 1985 if it happens) is up in the air.

I worked with most of the people Locke attacks in the papers I cite, while they were doing research or writing books, because they asked me to look over the control-theory stuff. We didn't always agree on how to apply PCT, but the relationships were good enough for starters. Face-to-face meetings would have worked better, but obviously they all learned enough to infuriate Locke and Bandura and others in that camp. I hope I'm not standing on any of your toes. You may also know Jeff Vancouver, a long-time CSG member, who publishes in your field.

I'm all out of old papers for now. What's your impression so far?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.30.0830)]

···

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:

Hello, John and all --

Who is "John and all"? This appears to be a follow up to a post that
didn't appear on CSGNet. Is that true?

Best

Rick

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

Hi, Rick --

John is John Bargh of Yale University, the same person we've been talking to and about in connection with Warren Mansell. You've been getting copies of the stuff via the cc to CSGnet. The other copies go to Carey, Mansell, and just to make sure he gets everything, Dag.

Bill

[From Jeff Vancouver (2008.10.07.1330)]

It has been awhile, but this thread caught my interest (albeit a week late).
I indeed know John Bargh and he knows me. We worked in the same department
(NYU) in the 90's. I also know Charles Carver. Both are social psychologists
whereas I am an I/O psychologist, so we don't tend to run in the same
circles (e.g., go to the same conferences or publish in the same journals)
too much.

Anyway, I have been submitting and usually getting published responses to
the criticisms in the literature of PCT. Many of the long-time CSGnet
members know I published a direct response to Bandura and Locke's diatribe
(Vancouver, 2005). I also have a chapter in a philosophy book on the
criticisms (Vancouver & Zawidzki, 2007). Another response was focused at a
John Bargh article in American Psychologist (Vancouver & Scherbaum, 2000).
It might be best described as a nit, but one that I think Bill P. would
agree should be addressed.

Meanwhile, I have been busy doing research and building theory. Below I
provide the full references for cites mentioned above and some of my more
recent work. Because it is either published or under review, I cannot post
it to a list, but I can send out articles upon request (my email is
vancouve@ohio.edu).

A central difference between my approach and Bill's is the role I give to
more modern control theory concepts (e.g., Kalman filters and forward
models). Indeed, the self-efficacy concept falls into this category and is
reflected in a lot of my work (see below). I do not know the DEGREE to which
they play a role in human behavior, but it seems that at least simplified
versions of them are needed to capture some observed human behavior. This
question of degree seems a central issue in psychomotor control and other
subdisciplines in psychology. However, I am with Bill in seeing what can be
done with simpler models (i.e., combinations of feedback models).

I have also gotten a lot more into computational modeling (thanks to Rick's
pushing me) as can be seen in many of the titles listed below.
Unfortunately, I am one of the few in I/O or social psychology who does
computational modeling and it has been a struggle to get these papers
accepted. Indeed, the top paper on the list (which is in reverse
chronological order) was Scherbaum's Masters theses, primarily done in the
last century! So it goes.

Jeff V.

My PCT-related papers:

Scherbaum, C. A., & Vancouver, J. B. (revised and resubmitted). If we
produce discrepancies, then how? Testing a computational process model of
positive goal revision. Journal of Applied Social Psychology.

Vancouver, J. B., Tamanini, K. B., & Yoder, R. J. (in press). Using dynamic
computational models to reconnect theory and research: A socialization by
the proactive newcomer exemplar. Journal of Management.

Vancouver, J. B. (2008). Integrating self-regulation theories of work
motivation into a dynamic process theory. Human Resource Management Review,
18, 1-18.

Vancouver, J. B. & Scherbaum, C. A. (2008). Do We Self-Regulate Actions or
Perceptions? A Test of Two Computational Models. Computational and
Mathematical Organizational Theory, 14, 1-22.

Vancouver, J. B., More, K. M., & Yoder, R. J. (2008). Self efficacy and
resource allocation: Support for a discontinuous model. Journal of Applied
Psychology, 93, 35-47

Vancouver, J. B., & Zawidzki, T. (2007). What Determines the Self in Self
Regulation: Applied Psychology's Struggle with Will. In D. Ross, D.
Spurrett, H. Kincaid, & L. Stephens (Eds.), Distributed Cognition and the
Will (pp. 289-322). MIT Press: Cambridge, MA.

Vancouver, J. B. (2006). Control theory. In S. G. Rogelberg (Ed.),
Encyclopedia of Industrial/Organizational Psychology, Thousand Oaks, CA:
Sage.

Vancouver, J. B. & Kendall, L. N. (2006). When self efficacy negatively
relates to motivation and performance in a learning context. Journal of
Applied Psychology, 91, 1146-1153.

Vancouver, J. B., & Day, D. V. (2005). Industrial and Organization Research
on Self Regulation: From Constructs to Applications. Applied Psychology:
International Review, 54, 155-185.

Vancouver J. B., Putka, D. J., & Scherbaum, C. A. (2005). Testing a
Computational Model of the Goal Level Effect: An Example of a Neglected
Methodology. Organizational Research Methods, 8, 100 127.

Vancouver, J. B. (2005). The Depth of History and Explanation as Benefit and
Bane for Psychological Control Theories. Journal of Applied Psychology, 90,
38-52.

Vancouver, J. B., & Tischner, E. C. (2004). The Effect of Feedback Sign on
Task Performance Depends on Self Concept Discrepancies. Journal of Applied
Psychology, 89, 1092-1098.

Vancouver, J. B., Thompson, C. M. Tischner, E. C., & Putka, D. J. (2002).
Two studies examining the negative effect of self-efficacy on performance.
Journal of Applied Psychology, 87, 506-516.

Vancouver, J. B., Thompson, C. M., & Williams, A. A. (2001). The changing
signs in the relationships between self efficacy, personal goals and
performance. Journal of Applied Psychology, 86, 605-620.

Vancouver, J. B. & Putka, D. J. (2000). Analyzing Goal-Striving Behavior and
a Test of the Generalizability of Perceptual Control Theory. Organizational
Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 82, 334-362.

Vancouver, J. B. & Scherbaum Jr., C. A. (2000). Automaticity, goals and
environmental interactions. American Psychologist, 55, 763-764.

Vancouver, J. B. (2000). Self-regulation in Industrial/Organizational
Psychology: A tale of two paradigms. In M. Boekaerts, P.R. Pintrich, & M.
Zeidner, (Eds.), Handbook of Self-Regulation (pp. 303-341). San Diego, CA:
Academic Press.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 5:19 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Locke, Goal-seeking, and PCT

Hello, John and all --

Well, John, that clears up one minor worry -- whether all this
unrequested information and opinion would be a presumption on your
tolerance. I just bulldozeded my way in, while Warren wondered if
this was entirely diplomatic. Welcome.

I've never met Charles Carver -- invited him to attend a Control
Systems Group meeting some time back, but he couldn't make it and I
think may have hestitated to risk exposure to what he may have
mistaken for a group of nit-picking engineers (we're anything but). I
hope you'll consider showing your face at one of our meetings. We're
in process of going fully international now so the question of the
next meeting (which would be the 25th since the first in 1985 if it
happens) is up in the air.

I worked with most of the people Locke attacks in the papers I cite,
while they were doing research or writing books, because they asked
me to look over the control-theory stuff. We didn't always agree on
how to apply PCT, but the relationships were good enough for
starters. Face-to-face meetings would have worked better, but
obviously they all learned enough to infuriate Locke and Bandura and
others in that camp. I hope I'm not standing on any of your toes. You
may also know Jeff Vancouver, a long-time CSG member, who publishes
in your field.

I'm all out of old papers for now. What's your impression so far?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2008.10.08.1145 MDT)]

Jeff Vancouver (2008.10.07.1330) --

Very impressive collection of publications, Jeff. I've seen some of them, as you know. I haven't heard back from Bargh after the last post. Got a copy of your "nit-pick" paper for me?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2008.10.08.1130)]

Jeff Vancouver (2008.10.07.1330)--

I have also gotten a lot more into computational modeling (thanks to Rick's
pushing me) as can be seen in many of the titles listed below.

I guess I should re-read some of your papers but as I recall my main
problem with your approach was methodological, not theoretical. I
think one of the main goals of research in PCT should be the
determination of what an individual's goal (reference state of a
controlled variable) actually is. That means testing for the
controlled variable. This test can be done using modeling (to some
extent); you can see which quantitative description of the CV yields
model behavior that best matches observed behavior. This is basically
what I did in my studies of the optical variables controlled when
catching fly balls. But modeling alone can only take you some far (see
Marken, R. S. (2005) Optical Trajectories and the Informational Basis
of Fly Ball Catching, Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human
Perception & Performance, 31 (3), 630 � 634). Ultimately the only way
to determine what variables a person is controlling is to apply
disturbances to hypothetical controlled variables and see whether or
not the effect of these disturbances is what is expected if the
variables were not under control. This generally works best using one
subject at a time; I believe your research is based no group averages.

So, again, my problem with your work, Jeff, was not theoretical but
methodological. But maybe you are doing the research differently now
(or I misunderstood your earlier work) so if you've got a paper that
describes research using methods aimed at determining controlled
variables I would very much like to see it.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Jeff Vancouver (2008.10.09.0750)]

[From Rick Marken (2008.10.08.1130)]

I guess I should re-read some of your papers but as I recall my main
problem with your approach was methodological, not theoretical.

You should take your advice here.

I
think one of the main goals of research in PCT should be the
determination of what an individual's goal (reference state of a
controlled variable) actually is.

Yes, that is an important goal, and my Vancouver & Putka (2000) paper is
largely about applying the TCV. But that is not the only goal of PCT
research and much of what I do involves asking individuals to pursue certain
goals (I have also found attempts to exclude individuals because they do not
show evidence of pursuing the assigned goals does not go over well with
reviewers). I have also found that the TCV does not work very well when
several CV are in play. For instance, if reference levels are changing
because of changing discrepancies in higher-level control agents, it is very
difficult to apply the TCV (Runkel, 1990). Indeed, it is in examining these
kinds of phenomena -- where several control agents are possibly involved --
that computational modeling is particularly helpful. It is difficult to
mentally model (i.e., think through) the implications of one's ideas without
external computational help.

This generally works best using one
subject at a time; I believe your research is based no group averages.

I believe only one of the papers I listed uses only group averages. Nearly
all my empirical work uses multilevel modeling, which allows one to examine
individual processes across many individuals (or, said another way, to look
at one individual and replicates simultaneously, though I often look at each
individual one at a time while analyzing the data). They also allow one to
determine if individuals are essentially doing the same thing and if not,
what might relate to the individual differences. But perhaps the most
critical methodological issue in anyone's work is alternative explanations
for a result (or set of results). That is true whether one is looking at
group averages or individual data. The TCV is powerful because it's series
of protocols, if all successful, eliminate various alternatives along the
way. Meanwhile, computational models are merely a more precise way of
specifying theory/explanations. So, if one has an alternative explanation
for a finding, whether computationally or verbally articulated, that creates
an interpretation problem as well as an opportunity for additional research.
I always welcome these opportunities. However, I find that few other
"theories" are up to the task of accounting for the kinds of dynamic
processes that control theory models can account for. Thus, much of my work
is not about pitting alternative explanations, but about finding an
explanation that can account for time series (repeated
measures/longitudinal) data from an individual (replicated on many
individuals).

So, again, my problem with your work, Jeff, was not theoretical but
methodological. But maybe you are doing the research differently now
(or I misunderstood your earlier work) so if you've got a paper that
describes research using methods aimed at determining controlled
variables I would very much like to see it.

You have seen it and I believe you misunderstood it, but I suspect that the
primary issue is the difference in our research goals. I have no problem
with your interest in determining controlled variables. It is just that my
interests have been more about understanding how well-accepted psychological
constructs and phenomena can be understood (or found to be wanting) from a
more process orientation. An orientation that for me is generally going to
require HPCT because it is one of the few well-articulated process theories.
I believe making this connection between the old and new is the only way to
move PCT into the mainstream. Moreover, I believe that much of the old,
well-accepted psychological constructs have value (I do not want to throw
baby out with bathwater).

Jeff

[Martin Taylor 2008.10.09.10.21]

(Breaking self-imposed silence while preparing for a meeting in the UK).

[From Jeff Vancouver (2008.10.09.0750)]

   It is just that my
interests have been more about understanding how well-accepted psychological
constructs and phenomena can be understood (or found to be wanting) from a
more process orientation. An orientation that for me is generally going to
require HPCT because it is one of the few well-articulated process theories.
I believe making this connection between the old and new is the only way to
move PCT into the mainstream. Moreover, I believe that much of the old,
well-accepted psychological constructs have value (I do not want to throw
baby out with bathwater).
  
Just as chemical understanding has not all been thrown out by new knowledge of quantum effects in the formation of molecules, but rather has been refined and extended ... Some chemical "knowledge" has been discarded because of improving knowledge of physics. So also, some (perhaps much, but we don't yet know) psychological and sociological "knowledge" will have to be discarded when we understand how PCT applies in the relevant context. How much we can trust the rest depends on our experience and experiment as to whether the results seem likely to be useful in related context (different times, places, cultures, subjects). If they do seem likely to be generally valid, there's something for PCT to explain. If not, then perhaps PCT could explain what about the changed context made the difference. No matter what, the data are there, sometimes interpretable, sometimes not.

For example, if we observe that people driving cars northward on a particular street show a rhythmic pattern of "preference" for being in a particular block, a conventional approach to psychology might look for some preference for being with other drivers, whereas as "PCT-like" approach might observe that there is a traffic light at the south end of the block. The data are correct, the conventional interpretation would not be. Nevertheless, if one wants to cross the street in that block, it would be perfectly reasonable to say "wait 40 seconds, and the traffic will become lighter". That would be a valid prediction, regardless of the whether the advisor believed in "bunching preference" or had observed the traffic light. How you treat reproducible data depends on what you want.

I'm with Jeff on this one. For Rick's purposes, Rick is right. For Jeff's (and, I think, for mine), Jeff is right.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2008.10.09.1145)]

Jeff Vancouver (2008.10.09.0750)

Rick Marken (2008.10.08.1130)--

I guess I should re-read some of your papers but as I recall my main
problem with your approach was methodological, not theoretical.

You should take your advice here.
...

I think one of the main goals of research in PCT should be the
determination of what an individual's goal (reference state of a
controlled variable) actually is.

Yes, that is an important goal, and my Vancouver & Putka (2000) paper is
largely about applying the TCV.

Then that's the paper I should read. Could you send me a copy. Thanks!

I have also found that the TCV does not work very well when
several CV are in play.

How did you find that? Do you have a paper explaining the problem. I
don't see how it could be a problem. People are always controlling
several -- probably hundreds-- of variables at the same time and I've
had no problem doing the TCV under those circumstances. Why was it a
problem for you? This seems like something that would be very
important for a PCT researcher to know.

For instance, if reference levels are changing
because of changing discrepancies in higher-level control agents, it is very
difficult to apply the TCV (Runkel, 1990).

Not really. My computer demo of the TCV , at

http://www.mindreadings.com/ControlDemo/Mindread.html

is done in a situation when the reference for the controlled variable
(the 2-D position of one of the characters) is continuously changing.
It works just fine. You'll have to explain why you had a problem with
it. Do you have a paper that discusses this?

I believe only one of the papers I listed uses only group averages.

Great. Maybe you could send me a paper that shows your use of the TCV
in a one-subject-at-a- time testing situation.

I have no problem
with your interest in determining controlled variables. It is just that my
interests have been more about understanding how well-accepted psychological
constructs and phenomena can be understood (or found to be wanting) from a
more process orientation.

I think that aspect of your work is a fools errand. But let me see one
of your TCV papers, especially one that explains the problem with
using the TCV when other variables are under control. If you have such
a paper I think it would be very valuable for would-be PCT
researchers.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com