Mark Lazare -- Vijay Kumar: Robots that fly ... and cooperate

Hello all,

I have been MIA for a few years. I just received this email from a friend of my and made me think of CSG.

    "In the relentless forward march of technology,  here's an example of fiction becoming fact! . Pretty amazing where we are, and where we are going so rapidly In this recent innovation in physics and flight :  About 18 minutes.  Vijay Kumar: Robots that fly ... and cooperate"

http://www.youtube.com/v/4ErEBkj_3PY&fmt=18&autoplay=1

I am happy to see so many fimilar names that are still very active and passionate.

Mark Lazare

···

-----Original Message-----

From: Richard Marken rsmarken@GMAIL.COM

To: CSGNET CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Sent: Mon, Mar 5, 2012 6:12 pm

Subject: Re: Unification of life sciences

[From Rick Marken (2012.03.05.1710)]

Martin Taylor (2012.03.04.13.41)–

RM: I think the physical components of the relationship between lever and pellet determines the nature of the functional relationships between variables (lever press rate and reinforcement rate, for example).

MT: Yes, you have that right.

RM: So it seems to me that there is no difference between environmental affordance and feedback function.

MT: How can you reconcile this with your previous sentence? Read one and then the other, and see if you can do it.

RM: So an environmental affordance is the implementation of the feedback function? I guess I don’t get the importance of that distinction, for modeling anyway. If the feedback function is qi = o ^ .5 (input goes as the square root of output) then, from a modeling perspective, it doesn’t matter whether this function is implemented using gears, software or hydraulics.

MT: Suppose you have in your hand an electronic device that emits at its output the logarithm of the voltage at its input. It is a physical device that determines the relation between its input and its output. Your second sentence is equivalent to saying that there is no difference between the function “Vout = log(Vin)” and a plastic box with connector terminals marked “Out” and “In”. I think that’s rather silly. If you have that plastic box, you have, if you need it, an environmental affordance for generating a logarithmic feedback function, but you do not have in your hand a function of any sort.

RM: Yes, I see that now. Silly me;-) But as I said, my excuse is that I don’t see any important reason for wanting for distinguish the feedback function from it’s physical implementation, unless, as you say, you are interested in using the feedback function to control behavior, as Skinner did by varying the schedule of reinforcement. Of course, Skinner had to know how to work the mechanism that transformed responses into reinforcements. But whatever the mechanism, the only thing you really have to know about the feedback function in order to understand the animal’s controlling is it’s form, not it’s implementation.

MT: Of course, as Bill pointed out a while back, the box provides an indefinite number of possible environmental affordances in addition to possibly producing a logarithmic function for you.

RM: I suppose that depends on whether you just got the basic box, which gives you only the log function, or the super delux model, which gives you that and a whole lot more;-)

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

Mark, thanks for sharing.

Yes, I've been tracking these developments through the physorg.com site on Facebook.

Just looked at Vijay Kumar's CV. Anybody ever heard of screw system theory?

When I think of the notion of living systems in general, the image of a screw immediately comes to mind as three coherences rather than dimensions.

Cheers,
Chad

Chad Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

"If you want sense, you'll have to make it yourself." - Norton Juster

"Lazare, Mark Crisis counselor, Phoenix AZ" <dtsdto@AOL.COM> 3/11/2012 9:02 PM >>>

Hello all,

I have been MIA for a few years. I just received this email from a friend of my and made me think of CSG.

        "In the relentless forward march of technology, here's an example of fiction becoming fact! . Pretty amazing where we are, and where we are going so rapidly In this recent innovation in physics and flight : About 18 minutes. Vijay Kumar: Robots that fly ... and cooperate"

http://www.youtube.com/v/4ErEBkj_3PY&fmt=18&autoplay=1

I am happy to see so many fimilar names that are still very active and passionate.

Mark Lazare

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Marken <rsmarken@GMAIL.COM>
To: CSGNET <CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU>
Sent: Mon, Mar 5, 2012 6:12 pm
Subject: Re: Unification of life sciences

[From Rick Marken (2012.03.05.1710)]

Martin Taylor (2012.03.04.13.41)--

RM: I think the physical components of the relationship between lever and pellet determines the nature of the functional relationships between variables (lever press rate and reinforcement rate, for example).

MT: Yes, you have that right.

RM: So it seems to me that there is no difference between environmental affordance and feedback function.

MT: How can you reconcile this with your previous sentence? Read one and then the other, and see if you can do it.

RM: So an environmental affordance is the _implementation_ of the feedback function? I guess I don't get the importance of that distinction, for modeling anyway. If the feedback function is qi = o ^ .5 (input goes as the square root of output) then, from a modeling perspective, it doesn't matter whether this function is implemented using gears, software or hydraulics.

MT: Suppose you have in your hand an electronic device that emits at its output the logarithm of the voltage at its input. It is a physical device that determines the relation between its input and its output. Your second sentence is equivalent to saying that there is no difference between the function "Vout = log(Vin)" and a plastic box with connector terminals marked "Out" and "In". I think that's rather silly. If you have that plastic box, you have, if you need it, an environmental affordance for generating a logarithmic feedback function, but you do not have in your hand a function of any sort.

RM: Yes, I see that now. Silly me;-) But as I said, my excuse is that I don't see any important reason for wanting for distinguish the feedback function from it's physical implementation, unless, as you say, you are interested in using the feedback function to control behavior, as Skinner did by varying the schedule of reinforcement. Of course, Skinner had to know how to work the mechanism that transformed responses into reinforcements. But whatever the mechanism, the only thing you really have to know about the feedback function in order to understand the animal's controlling is it's form, not it's implementation.

MT: Of course, as Bill pointed out a while back, the box provides an indefinite number of possible environmental affordances in addition to possibly producing a logarithmic function for you.

RM: I suppose that depends on whether you just got the basic box, which gives you only the log function, or the super delux model, which gives you that and a whole lot more;-)

Best

Rick

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2012.03.13.1340)]

···

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Lazare, Mark Crisis counselor, Phoenix AZ dtsdto@aol.com wrote:

Hello all,

I have been MIA for a few years. I just received this email from a friend of my and made me think of CSG.

    "In the relentless forward march of technology,  here's an example of fiction becoming fact! . Pretty amazing where we are, and where we are going so rapidly In this recent innovation in physics and flight :  About 18 minutes.  Vijay Kumar: Robots that fly ... and cooperate"

http://www.youtube.com/v/4ErEBkj_3PY&fmt=18&autoplay=1

I am happy to see so many fimilar names that are still very active and passionate.

Mark Lazare

Hi Mark

This is a pretty nifty demo. It’s clear from the talk that they are engineering these things as S-R devices. But the fact is that they are actually little control systems, generating all that fancy output (like jerk and snap(?) ) to keep sensed variables (position, yaw, pitch, roll) in reference states. A similar thing is seen in the much simpler Braitenberg vehicles, which are designed in S-R terms (the move towards a light, so the “stimulus” is the light and the response is movement left of right depending on the sensor actuated by the light) but work because there is a physical feedback connection from response to sensed input. So if you make the S-R laws right you get a vehicle that tracks a light source. The same thing is happening (with more degrees of freedom, of course) with these little helicopters.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Speaking of stimuli as light, has anyone ever compared the Ten suchnesses in Buddhist doctrine to HPCT?

For example, see the diagram at the bottom of this page:
http://www.rk-world.org/10suchnesses.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

or here:

Please note that I am neither a religious nor spiritual person. I only seek incompleteness.

Best,
Chad

Chad T. Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633
Web: http://cmsweb1.loudoun.k12.va.us/50910052783559/site/default.asp

There are no great organizations, just great workgroups.
-- Results from a study of 80,000 managers by The Gallup Organization

Richard Marken 03/13/12 4:40 PM >>>

[From Rick Marken (2012.03.13.1340)]

Hello all,

I have been MIA for a few years. I just received this email from a
friend of my and made me think of CSG.

        "In the relentless forward march of technology, here's an example
of fiction becoming fact! . Pretty amazing where we are, and where we are
going so rapidly In this recent innovation in physics and flight : About
18 minutes. Vijay Kumar: Robots that fly ... and cooperate"
    ******
http://www.youtube.com/v/4ErEBkj_3PY&fmt=18&autoplay=1****
****
** I am happy to see so many fimilar names that are still very active and
passionate.**
****
**Mark Lazare**
****

Hi Mark

This is a pretty nifty demo. It's clear from the talk that they are
engineering these things as S-R devices. But the fact is that they are
actually little control systems, generating all that fancy output (like
jerk and snap(?) ) to keep sensed variables (position, yaw, pitch, roll) in
reference states. A similar thing is seen in the much simpler Braitenberg
vehicles, which are designed in S-R terms (the move towards a light, so the
"stimulus" is the light and the response is movement left of right
depending on the sensor actuated by the light) but work because there is a
physical feedback connection from response to sensed input. So if you make
the S-R laws right you get a vehicle that tracks a light source. The same
thing is happening (with more degrees of freedom, of course) with these
little helicopters.

Best

Rick

···

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Lazare, Mark Crisis counselor, Phoenix AZ < dtsdto@aol.com> wrote:

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com