Marketing Non- Coercion

[From Rick Marken (990503.1720)]

Just one quick question for those of you (just about everyone
but Bill and me and now Kenny Kitzke) who believe that the
intentions of both coercer and coercee must be taken into
account to determine whether or not coercion is going on:

Isn't it impossible, then, to say, in advance (before it is
actually used on a particular group of people) whether or not
a particular program (approach to dealing with people) is coercive?

For example, say I have a new management training program that
works a lot like the Spanish Inquisition; if your don't jump up
and down and spin around 3 times each day then you are burned
at the stake. This program has been tried at a company in Pittsburg
and it worked like a charm; everybody jumped and turned and no
one was burned. So can I say that this program is non-coercive? I
think not; if "coercion" depends on the intentions of both the
coercer and coercee then some coercee at the next company might
not want jump and turn, changing what had been a non-coercive
program into a coercive one.

So doesn't saying that "coercion depends on the intentions of
both the coercer and coercee" make it impossible to market a
program as non-coercive (or coercive) since you can't tell
whether the program is coercive or not until you've tried it
on each person.

Best

Rick

ยทยทยท

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Kenny Kitzke (990503.2330EDT)]

<Rick Marken (990503.1720)>

<Isn't it impossible, then, to say, in advance (before it is
actually used on a particular group of people) whether or not
a particular program (approach to dealing with people) is coercive?>

It is impossible to say for sure, in advance. But, there may be statistical
data that shows that coercion took place in 80% of the samples. Then, I
would say in advance that, unless you are different that others who tried the
program, it is quite likely to be coercive, but some individuals will not see
it that way.

<For example, say I have a new management training program that
works a lot like the Spanish Inquisition; if your don't jump up
and down and spin around 3 times each day then you are burned
at the stake. This program has been tried at a company in Pittsburg
and it worked like a charm; everybody jumped and turned and no
one was burned. So can I say that this program is non-coercive? I
think not; if "coercion" depends on the intentions of both the
coercer and coercee then some coercee at the next company might
not want jump and turn, changing what had been a non-coercive
program into a coercive one.>

BTW, while there is a Pittsburg California, it is not known for developing
world-class, value creating management systems. That is Pittsburgh, PA where
there is at least one management consultant trying to apply PCT to human
interactions within an organization to make it perform better and make work
enjoyable.

At the risk of upsetting Tim Carey, I feel that management systems, public
education systems, etc., (in which the policies and practices of the people
in charge are given power and authority over the participants in the system),
have an inherent coercive aspect. But, not every teacher, student, manager
or worker will submit to that potential coercive authority. Managers or
employees can simply quit rather than be coerced. This is not so clear for a
student in a mandatory public school system.

In my quality management system, I have for a decade described it as a
"velvet brick." No one has to buy into the new system. It is voluntary.
But, if you don't participate voluntarily, you may find out that this is no
longer an enjoyable place to work. I see much in parallel with RTP.

I stress patience with managers. This negates the use of a forced firing,
even if the cognizant manager is empowered by the system to immediately fire
those who will initially resist. Embedded reference perceptions about
quality, learning, teaching (and moral beliefs) do not always change quickly.
Ones view of their role in managing quality may not change just because of a
highly rated education course on quality management (which about 85% of
attendees rate 9 or 10 out of 10 as useful to them).

After a lot of encouragement; for employees who will not change themselves so
as to work in the new system, we boldly change employees. In fact, those who
do not think quality and their role is important, I urge my clients to send
that employee's resume to their competitors. If the employee won't help
improve your quality, he won't help your competitor either and you will gain
a competitive advantage by finding a willfully compliant replacement employee.

I have not had a client where some executive or high-level manager simply
refuses to submit to the velvet brick coercion. They usually leave before
they are fired.

<So doesn't saying that "coercion depends on the intentions of
both the coercer and coercee" make it impossible to market a
program as non-coercive (or coercive) since you can't tell
whether the program is coercive or not until you've tried it
on each person.>

Being non-coercive is not a popular marketing ploy. Organizational leaders
and public school superintendents mostly want to get results and frankly,
they are used to getting what they want using coercion as the means. They
are S-R all the way with no appreciation of people as being autonomous,
purposive controllers of their own perceptions. This is why coercion can be
so insidious. It appears to have worked with all who do not resist or leave.

Yet, many people in my clients changed because our education is based on a
PCT type understanding about people called, "What's in it for me?" No force
was needed. One woman president said that after trying the new concepts, she
had the best, most rewarding, hassle free week in all her years as President.
Surprisingly, most of my competitors want employees to do high quality work
to *please their customers*. I have not generally shared with them how
stupid this is as most don't even know who the customers actually are. I
never stress customer satisfaction. It may be one of the PCT secrets that
has helped me get voluntary change and extraordinary results.

PCT has not only changed me; it changed how I go about serving clients. But,
in all honesty, my becoming a Christian at 47 has had similar impact on my
work, perhaps even greater. I can tell you that the combination has turned
my world and world view upside down.

Two major clients dropped me cold when I announced that all Value Creation
Systems associates were committed Christians and we would not hide that fact
for the sake of keeping religious thought out of their workplace.

Most were neutral. Three have become like family. We are partners in every
sense of the word. It has made working more rewarding than ever for me. I
am making a fraction of the money I once made, but in reality, it was way
more than what I ever really needed.

Even worse, the money never made me happy. Losing $10,000 in the stock
market in a day is a disturbance and creates an error signal. Better off not
having the money. :sunglasses:

Now I have time to do things that satisfy my purpose in life. I had to find
out the hard way that the rat race of promotions, corner offices and big
bonuses never really satisfied my system level reference perceptions. When I
changed my system references, quite naturally my loop changed what I do to
achieve them.

But, I agree with your statement. While the people in authority have the
ability to try to coerce people in their system, coercion only occurs when
the coercee gives up his free will, and does what the superior wants rather
than be fired, or disciplined.

Kenny

[From Tim Carey (990504.2120)]

[From Kenny Kitzke (990503.2330EDT)]

At the risk of upsetting Tim Carey, I feel that management systems, public
education systems, etc., (in which the policies and practices of the people
in charge are given power and authority over the participants in the

system),

have an inherent coercive aspect

OK call me a sucker but here I am replying again.

I find it so weird to talk about coercion as an "inherent aspect" of systems
in a forum that discusses PCT.

Would it also be acceptable to discuss the "inherent rewarding properties"
of chocolate?

Cheers,

Tim

[From Tim Carey (990504.2130)]

[From Rick Marken (990503.1720)]

Just one quick question for those of you (just about everyone
but Bill and me and now Kenny Kitzke) who believe that the
intentions of both coercer and coercee must be taken into
account to determine whether or not coercion is going on:

Yep, that must be me.

Isn't it impossible, then, to say, in advance (before it is
actually used on a particular group of people) whether or not
a particular program (approach to dealing with people) is coercive?

And the angels wept ....

So doesn't saying that "coercion depends on the intentions of
both the coercer and coercee" make it impossible to market a
program as non-coercive (or coercive) since you can't tell
whether the program is coercive or not until you've tried it
on each person.

Yep. In my opinion it would be nonsensical to market a program as
"particularly anything" if you said that you were basing it on PCT. Could
you market a program or even a particular strategy as rewarding or
punishing? Would you be prepared to predict before the event that everyone
of the people you were going to use your favourite "rewarding strategy" on
would be rewarded?

Cheers,

Tim

from [ Marc Abrams (990504.1007) ]

[From Tim Carey (990504.2120)]

OK call me a sucker but here I am replying again.

It's like eating potatoe chips. Tough to have just one. :slight_smile:

> I find it so weird to talk about coercion as an "inherent aspect" of
systems

in a forum that discusses PCT.

Tim, I think Martin Taylor said it best yesterday.

I don't know who used the term "inherent aspect" but let me try a different
angle. We never do just one thing. I agree with you that the coercion model
as presented, does _not_ represent an interaction as you and I might define
it. No one ever said that it did. To say that someone or something is
coercive is to say that someone or something is "mean", "happy", "stupid".
etc. These all represent "aspects" ( that is modules of behavior ) that may
be going on simultaneously with _other_ behaviors. When you say someone is
"stupid" can they also be happy, angry, sitting, running, talking, etc.
Would you classify a person as being a "happy" person? This is what _I_
would define as an _aspect_ of an individual, Whether or not it's inherent
is a different matter but it could seem that way.

Would it also be acceptable to discuss the "inherent rewarding properties"
of chocolate?

For an _individual_ it might. _after_ the test were done.

Marc

[From Bill Powers (990504.1204 MDT)]

Tim Carey (990504.2120)--

I find it so weird to talk about coercion as an "inherent aspect" of systems
in a forum that discusses PCT.

Then how about this: If the program I adopt relative to other people calls
for me to win every conflict, and use as much force as necessary on other
people to get my way, couldn't we call this an inherently coercive approach
to other people? Certainly it's possiblo, by some extremely unlikely
combination of circumstances, that I would use this approach on another
person who just happens to want my effects on him to be exactly what they
are, so closely that I can see no error at all to correct, but I don't
think that would happen often enough to worry about. We're talking about
what it takes to make a person into a bully, aren't we? Weren't you
interested in that subject at one time?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Tim Carey (990505.06100]

[From Bill Powers (990504.1204 MDT)]

Then how about this: If the program I adopt relative to other people calls
for me to win every conflict, and use as much force as necessary on other
people to get my way, couldn't we call this an inherently coercive approach
to other people?

Perfect. I know of some people I would describe in precisely this way.

Certainly it's possiblo, by some extremely unlikely

combination of circumstances, that I would use this approach on another
person who just happens to want my effects on him to be exactly what they
are, so closely that I can see no error at all to correct, but I don't
think that would happen often enough to worry about. We're talking about
what it takes to make a person into a bully, aren't we? Weren't you
interested in that subject at one time?

I still am interested in that Bill. But what we're talking about now is what
it takes to make an _individual_ into a coercer or a bully that to me sounds
very different from talking about a coercive _system_.

Thanks for the patience,

Cheers,

Tim

[From Tim Carey (990505.0625)]

From [ Marc Abrams (990504.1007) ]

Tim, I think Martin Taylor said it best yesterday.

So do I.

Would it also be acceptable to discuss the "inherent rewarding

properties"

of chocolate?

For an _individual_ it might. _after_ the test were done.

Even then that doesn't sound right to me. I don't think chocolate ever has
rewarding properties. The "rewarding" goes on inside someone's head, not
inside a candy bar.

Cheers,

Tim

from [ Marc Abrams (990504.1643) ]

[From Tim Carey (990505.06100]

Perfect. I know of some people I would describe in precisely this way.

Don't you mean "categorize"? Why do you "describe" an individual according
to _any_ one aspect _you_ might observe? This is precisely the problem I had
with my medical care. Each specialist narrowly defined my problems in terms
of _their_ understanding ( their specialty ). To _categorize_ an individual
as _a_ coercer alone is ludicrous. To say that we practice _coercion_ is
more accurate. But coercers also practice "love", and "tenderness", and
"gruffness" and bunches of other controlled variables. "Describing"
individuals by a single CV is a dangerous practice.

I still am interested in that Bill. But what we're talking about now is

what

it takes to make an _individual_ into a coercer or a bully that to me

sounds

very different from talking about a coercive _system_.

What does it mean to be a "bully", in PCT terms? I think you will find words
alone insufficient to represent this interactive process.

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (990504.1712) ]

[From Tim Carey (990505.0625)]

Me:

>For an _individual_ it might. _after_ the test were done.

Tim:

Even then that doesn't sound right to me. I don't think chocolate ever has
rewarding properties. The "rewarding" goes on inside someone's head, not
inside a candy bar.

Yes, Inherent in the individual, i never said otherwise. :slight_smile:

Marc

[From Kenny Kitzke (990505.1330EDT)]

Tim Carey (990504.2120)>

<OK call me a sucker but here I am replying again.>

Gotchya.

<I find it so weird to talk about coercion as an "inherent aspect" of systems
in a forum that discusses PCT.>

When organizations set rules for acceptable and unacceptable behavior for
members of the organization, they can be coercive to members. These rules
don't have people's names next to them. While some of these rules may be
unwritten, usually they go into some type of policies and procedures manual.

The organizational management system becomes faceless law. If you complain
to a superior about these laws, it is frequently said, "Look, I didn't write
it and I can't change it; do what it says or we'll both get in trouble."
This is where the presence of coercion in a relationship would be manifested.

People who are in an organization have little power to change its rules. It
usually requires a formal review process and authoritative sign off.

Many people refuse to be coerced by the words of the system. They will wear
clothes that violate the dress code and wait to see if anyone enforces the
rules. Others are coerced by the words and if they say no jeans allowed at
work or school; they comply even if they disagree. Of course, if a person
had no jeans in their wardrobe, or don't think they should be worn there, I
would say they have not been coerced. Rick would say they were coerced.

<Would it also be acceptable to discuss the "inherent rewarding properties"
of chocolate?>

I would most likely not use that terminology but I believe chocolate does
have inherent properties that are perceived as rewarding by chocoholics, like
my wife. Why would it not be acceptable to discuss chocolate this way, other
than for being a bit clumsy?

Kenny