methodology and perceived disagreements

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.12.23.11:00 ET)]

Bruce Nevin (2017.12.21.08:46 ET) [Subject was: Watching your p’s and q.i’s (was Re: Kenneth J. W. Craik on levels of perception and control)] –

A little more about points of view.

We don’t know in detail how evolution, embryology, and reorganization have implemented control loops and the control hierarchy in our bodies, although Henry is making progress with simpler mammals. From the wetware point of view, our control diagrams are vastly simplified schematics. The synapsing of axons and dendrites is rather more complex, not to mention the neurochemical soup (cf. The War of the Soups and the Sparks).

Our conventional diagrams are fully adequate for modeling control as an observed phenomenon. For that, the physiological and psychophysical details are not needed. They do not even register in the perceptual input functions for controlling the crafting of PCT models with software. From the modeling point of view they are irrelevant, distracting, and dwelling on them may even become annoying–a disturbance.

Conversely, for a person interested in how the actual neural connections may function to achieve what is schematically represented in control diagrams, the waving away of these matters may well be a disturbance.

Computer simulations have been a central achievement and demonstration of PCT. The core methodology of PCT is understood to be: to identify controlled variables, quantify them, measure disturbances and outputs and infer reference values in commensurate terms, and then to verify all this by constructing a working simulation whose numerical inputs and outputs accord closely with the measured values. This has the crystalline appeal of logic and mathematics.

How does an interest in the messiness of neurophysiology and neurochemistry find a place in this canonical methodology of PCT? What is required for them to be in the same discussion without quarrel?

Another matter now. Quantification is central to our core methodology. But some of us work in fields where it is not obvious how to represent an individual’s controlled perceptions (and disturbances to them) by numerical quantities. This is because, physiologically, the quantification is done by the lowest-level input functions, the receptors in various sensory modalities, but the perceptions being investigated are at higher levels. To model quantitatively something like the control of word choice in a sentence, for example, would seem to require modeling numerous parallel lines of control all the way down to Intensity inputs; not to mention modeling memory and imagination far more comprehensively than has ever been done in any PCT simulation so far. Is it possible (would it be legitimate!) to finesse the problem by providing inputs to higher levels without actually modeling the lower levels that generate them? What then would be the basis or principle for quantification?

Add to this that in many fields–certainly for language–the controlled perceptions and the reference values for them are subject to collective control. We can adopt the simplifying assumption that e.g. parties to a dialog speak the same dialect of the same language, but we cannot ignore that engaging in dialog, understanding the other, and establishing agreements (or not) are matters of collective control. Kent has modeled collective control with great success, but limited to easily quantified variables or to abstract quantities without ‘real-world’ referents. How greatly will adding the above factors of memory and imagination complexify research into collective control?

A number of fields face these challenges as they come to PCT. I suppose collectively we could be said to represent another point of view, albeit rather inchoate, and one not as likely to result in misunderstanding and quarrel as the above. I think we tend to be rather more meek and unpretentious about our PCT chops. There’s no good response when we’re told how essential quantification and modeling are to doing ‘real PCT research’, with the implicit (or explicit) scolding at what dilletante sluggards we are. Perhaps it is only that I lack imagination and initiative, but these challenges have seemed daunting to me, and that is why I have asked Rick and Bruce (Abbott) to apply their expertise and experience to articulating the methodology of PCT more comprehensively.

Another point of view takes quantification in the direction of analyzing the systemic properties of control systems as mathematical objects or in information-theoretic terms. This may turn out to be important for understanding reorganization, the evolution of control systems, their limitations, and the perhaps as yet unrealized capacities of control systems, e.g. when they are technologically supported or augmented. Martin has been pioneering this aspect.

Are there other points of view or avenues of engagement in PCT that I have omitted?

If any of these points of view is beyond the pale of legitimate PCT, now would be an optimum time to make that case. Failing that, it behooves each of us to consider that true statements may be put in different words, and to distinguish genuine contradictions from differences of interest, emphasis, and quantifiability.

···

/Bruce

[From Rick Marken (2017.12.24.1515)]

···

Bruce Nevin (2017.12.23.11:00 ET)–

BN: How does an interest in the messiness of neurophysiology and neurochemistry find a place in this canonical methodology of PCT? What is required for them to be in the same discussion without quarrel?

RM: I don’t recall any quarrels set off by disagreements about neurophysiology/ neurochemistry. I wish there were more neurophysiology intelligently woven into these discussions. An example of how to do this is found in B:CP. Bill used lots of neurophysiological findings to support his speculations about the levels of control, for example.Â

BN: Another matter now. Quantification is central to our core methodology. But some of us work in fields where it is not obvious how to represent an individual’s controlled perceptions (and disturbances to them) by numerical quantities. Â

RM: I think studies of control of higher level perceptual variables – like the variables controlled in speaking and writing – will have to be done without quantification for some time. But I think there are ways to show what variables are being controlled when speaking or interacting using essentially qualitative methods. I think linguists have been using such methods for a long time. For example, you might test the type of grammatical structures a person is controlling (or not controlling) for by presenting sentences with particular structures and see how (or whether) the person “corrects” them, as in “the coin game” (which was itself a qualitative approach to testing for a controlled variable).

BN: Add to this that in many fields–certainly for language–the controlled perceptions and the reference values for them are subject to collective control.

RM: I think it’s no more difficult to study “collective control” than it is to study individual control. I can’t think of any situation where it isn’t obvious (or can’t be made obvious) that some controlled result – such as an iPhone – is being produced by the efforts of many individuals. In such cases it seems to me that the goal of research would be to determine what perceptions the different individuals involved in producing the final result are controlling for. For each individual you could do something like a PERceptual COntroL Analysis of Tasks (PERCOLATe), as described in my book MORE MIND READINGS (https://www.amazon.com/More-Mind-Readings-Methods-Purpose/dp/0944337430/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514153285&sr=1-5). Then you could show how, by controlling the variables they control individually, the the final product – the iPhone – results.

BN: Kent has modeled collective control with great success, but limited to easily quantified variables or to abstract quantities without ‘real-world’ referents. Â

Â

RM: I think that is, indeed, the important shortcoming of Kent’s modeling; it has not been tested againstwhat you call “real world” referents and what I call data.Â

Â

BN: There’s no good response when we’re told how essential quantification and modeling are to doing ‘real PCT research’, with the implicit (or explicit) scolding at what dilletante sluggards we are. Perhaps it is only that I lack imagination and initiative, but these challenges have seemed daunting to me, and that is why I have asked Rick and Bruce (Abbott) to apply their expertise and experience to articulating the methodology of PCT more comprehensively.

RM: I plan to do exactly that. But I hope you don’t think I have been scolding anyone (explicitly or implicitly) for not doing PCT research using quantitative modeling. If I’ve been doing any “scolding” at all it’s because it looks like very few people on CSGNet are doing any PCT research at all; certainly not the kind of research Bill hoped would be done to develop a science of living control systems. But I think the work of the Plooij’s on the development of control capabilities in infant chimps is a good example of qualitative research of the kind Bill was hoping to see – research aimed at testing Bill’s hypothesis about the specific types of perceptual variables that organisms control and the relationship between them.

Â

BN: Another point of view takes quantification in the direction of analyzing the systemic properties of control systems as mathematical objects or in information-theoretic terms. This may turn out to be important for understanding reorganization, the evolution of control systems, their limitations, and the perhaps as yet unrealized capacities of control systems, e.g. when they are technologically supported or augmented. Martin has been pioneering this aspect.

 RM: In my opinion, without data as a guide, this kind of research is an exercise in counting angles on pin heads.

BN: Are there other points of view or avenues of engagement in PCT that I have omitted?

RM: I would just add that B:CP gives a hint about the directions that Bill hoped PCT research would go in terms of the amount of space dedicated to different topics in the book. Here is a table showing the proportion of B:CP dedicated to the different topics:

Intro
23%
Levels
37%
Learning/Memory/Emotion/Conflict
29%
Methodology
6%
Control operation
3%
Â

RM: Note that most of B:CP is dedicated to Bill’s hypothesis about the levels of control – the types of perceptual variables that Bill thought were controlled at different levels of the control hierarchy. This suggests to me that the main thing Bill would have liked to see tested about his theory was his hypothesis about the classes (types) of perceptual variables that organisms control. The next largest section is dedicated to topics that all seem to have to do with Bill’s theory of reorganization. The Intro section is next and I would say that this part of the text is generally about the fact that behavior is a control phenomenon and how the theory of control explains this phenomenon. Finally there are small (but crucial) section on methodology and the mathematics of control system operation.Â

RM: Here are my estimates of the proportions of published PCT-based research that have been dedicated to each of these topics:

Intro
60%
Levels
4%
Learning/Memory/Emotion/Conflict
1%
Methodology
30%
Control operation
5%

RM: Obviously these are very subjective, ball park estimates. But I don’t think they are that far off the mark. And they certainly show where future research should be focused – at testing the hypothesis about the levels (classes) of perception that are controlled and at testing Bill’s theory about how the reorganization process works.Â

BN: If any of these points of view is beyond the pale of legitimate PCT, now would be an optimum time to make that case. Failing that, it behooves each of us to consider that true statements may be put in different words, and to distinguish genuine contradictions from differences of interest, emphasis, and quantifiability.Â

RM: I think the best way to distinguish genuine contradictions from differences of interest, emphasis, and quantifiability is to center these discussions around data, qualitative or quantitative. There will still be disagreements (as in the case of the power law, for example) but at least there is the possibility of resolving them using the scientific rather than the Talmudic approach.Â

Best

Rick

/Bruce


Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Bruce, Rick

I personally think that at last you started with much better way to come to GENERAL THEORY OF BEHAVIOR OF LCS. I like it.

···

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 12:20 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: methodology and perceived disagreements

[From Rick Marken (2017.12.24.1515)]

Bruce Nevin (2017.12.23.11:00 ET)–

BN: How does an interest in the messiness of neurophysiology and neurochemistry find a place in this canonical methodology of PCT? What is required for them to be in the same discussion without quarrel?

RM: I don’t recall any quarrels set off by disagreements about neurophysiology/ neurochemistry. I wish there were more neurophysiology intelligently woven into these discussions.

HB : I can’t beleive that you wrote this Rick.Here you are my guy Rick. I sometimes really don’t understand you. Once you are talking about special RCT theory which is valid for some cases of LCS behavior, And now you are talking about the methodological ways how to come to GENERAL THEORY OF BEHAVIOR of organisms and you are fully supporting Bill with his neurophysiological evidences. I’ve been teling you all the time that Bill used many physiological (neuro) »facts« to support his theory.

I proposed »neurophysological« courses on CSGnet but it seems that nobody »heard«.

RM : An example of how to do this is found in B:CP. Bill used lots of neurophysiological findings to support his speculations about the levels of control, for example.

I think it’s to narrow to speak about »his speculations about the levels of control«. I’d say his speculations about how generally organisms function including all physiology of organisms becasue he started with gemetical sources.

So why don’t you start analysing real life cases on the PCT bases and accept my oppinion of GENERAL THEORETICAL BASES which is by my oppinion situated in definitions (B:CP) and diagram (LCS III).

One problem I see is that you should stop with »data« or that you would compare them to real life situations and confirm general theory.

Boris

BN: Another matter now. Quantification is central to our core methodology. But some of us work in fields where it is not obvious how to represent an individual’s controlled perceptions (and disturbances to them) by numerical quantities.

RM: I think studies of control of higher level perceptual variables – like the variables controlled in speaking and writing – will have to be done without quantification for some time. But I think there are ways to show what variables are being controlled when speaking or interacting using essentially qualitative methods. I think linguists have been using such methods for a long time. For example, you might test the type of grammatical structures a person is controlling (or not controlling) for by presenting sentences with particular structures and see how (or whether) the person “corrects” them, as in “the coin game” (which was itself a qualitative approach to testing for a controlled variable).

BN: Add to this that in many fields–certainly for language–the controlled perceptions and the reference values for them are subject to collective control.

RM: I think it’s no more difficult to study “collective control” than it is to study individual control. I can’t think of any situation where it isn’t obvious (or can’t be made obvious) that some controlled result – such as an iPhone – is being produced by the efforts of many individuals. In such cases it seems to me that the goal of research would be to determine what perceptions the different individuals involved in producing the final result are controlling for. For each individual you could do something like a PERceptual COntroL Analysis of Tasks (PERCOLATe), as described in my book MORE MIND READINGS (https://www.amazon.com/More-Mind-Readings-Methods-Purpose/dp/0944337430/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514153285&sr=1-5). Then you could show how, by controlling the variables they control individually, the the final product – the iPhone – results.

BN: Kent has modeled collective control with great success, but limited to easily quantified variables or to abstract quantities without ‘real-world’ referents.

RM: I think that is, indeed, the important shortcoming of Kent’s modeling; it has not been tested againstwhat you call “real world” referents and what I call data.

BN: There’s no good response when we’re told how essential quantification and modeling are to doing ‘real PCT research’, with the implicit (or explicit) scolding at what dilletante sluggards we are. Perhaps it is only that I lack imagination and initiative, but these challenges have seemed daunting to me, and that is why I have asked Rick and Bruce (Abbott) to apply their expertise and experience to articulating the methodology of PCT more comprehensively.

RM: I plan to do exactly that. But I hope you don’t think I have been scolding anyone (explicitly or implicitly) for not doing PCT research using quantitative modeling. If I’ve been doing any “scolding” at all it’s because it looks like very few people on CSGNet are doing any PCT research at all; certainly not the kind of research Bill hoped would be done to develop a science of living control systems. But I think the work of the Plooij’s on the development of control capabilities in infant chimps is a good example of qualitative research of the kind Bill was hoping to see – research aimed at testing Bill’s hypothesis about the specific types of perceptual variables that organisms control and the relationship between them.

BN: Another point of view takes quantification in the direction of analyzing the systemic properties of control systems as mathematical objects or in information-theoretic terms. This may turn out to be important for understanding reorganization, the evolution of control systems, their limitations, and the perhaps as yet unrealized capacities of control systems, e.g. when they are technologically supported or augmented. Martin has been pioneering this aspect.

RM: In my opinion, without data as a guide, this kind of research is an exercise in counting angles on pin heads.

BN: Are there other points of view or avenues of engagement in PCT that I have omitted?

RM: I would just add that B:CP gives a hint about the directions that Bill hoped PCT research would go in terms of the amount of space dedicated to different topics in the book. Here is a table showing the proportion of B:CP dedicated to the different topics:

Intro

23%

Levels

37%

Learning/Memory/Emotion/Conflict

29%

Methodology

6%

Control operation

3%

RM: Note that most of B:CP is dedicated to Bill’s hypothesis about the levels of control – the types of perceptual variables that Bill thought were controlled at different levels of the control hierarchy. This suggests to me that the main thing Bill would have liked to see tested about his theory was his hypothesis about the classes (types) of perceptual variables that organisms control. The next largest section is dedicated to topics that all seem to have to do with Bill’s theory of reorganization. The Intro section is next and I would say that this part of the text is generally about the fact that behavior is a control phenomenon and how the theory of control explains this phenomenon. Finally there are small (but crucial) section on methodology and the mathematics of control system operation.

RM: Here are my estimates of the proportions of published PCT-based research that have been dedicated to each of these topics:

Intro

60%

Levels

4%

Learning/Memory/Emotion/Conflict

1%

Methodology

30%

Control operation

5%

RM: Obviously these are very subjective, ball park estimates. But I don’t think they are that far off the mark. And they certainly show where future research should be focused – at testing the hypothesis about the levels (classes) of perception that are controlled and at testing Bill’s theory about how the reorganization process works.

BN: If any of these points of view is beyond the pale of legitimate PCT, now would be an optimum time to make that case. Failing that, it behooves each of us to consider that true statements may be put in different words, and to distinguish genuine contradictions from differences of interest, emphasis, and quantifiability.

RM: I think the best way to distinguish genuine contradictions from differences of interest, emphasis, and quantifiability is to center these discussions around data, qualitative or quantitative. There will still be disagreements (as in the case of the power law, for example) but at least there is the possibility of resolving them using the scientific rather than the Talmudic approach.

Best

Rick

/Bruce

Richard S. Marken

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
–Antoine de Saint-Exupery