Minsky quote

CSGnet Archive CSG2015
1

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.21.1340)]

···

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

RM: One of the principle activities of the brain certainly must be making making changes in itself. But from a PCT perspective I like to say that the principle activity of the brain is to provide specifications for what the brain itself should experience. The brain provides the “specs” for experience (perception) and the body in which the brain is housed acts to keep keep what the brain experiences “up to spec”.

The principal activities of brains are making changes in themselves. -Marvin Minsky

PY: What do my fellow PCTers think about this quote?

Best

Rick

–

Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

2

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.21.16.58]

    [From Rick Marken (2015.10.21.1340)]

Fascinating. You know, that could almost be a nano-review of J.G.

Taylor’s “The Behavioral Basis of Perception” ( Yale U. P, 1962),
which I reviewed for the Canadian Journal of Psychology when it came
out. I have long wished J. G. (no relation, though I came to know
him quite well) and W.T.P. had met in the 1960s or 1970s. I think
PCT would have been streets ahead by now.

I'm pretty sure that  J.G. would have quickly seen that his

perception-action-perception feedback theory would not have been
appreciably altered by substituting control and reorganization for
the Hullian reinforcement he had to use, that being what he knew,
while W.T.P. would have been handed a theoretical and experimental
basis for the perceptual side of reorganization. In other words, the
way I see it now, Jim showed how the perceptions we have are built,
maintained and adapted because by controlling them we survive in the
real environment, while Bill showed how they could be organized (the
control hierarchy) and how control can adapt (reorganization). Their
theories fit like two pieces of a jigsaw, and both did plenty of
experiments and demonstrations in complete ignorance of each other
(so far as I know). Pity.

Martin
···

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu
wrote:

      RM: One of the principle activities of the brain certainly

must be making making changes in itself. But from a PCT
perspective I like to say that the principle activity of the
brain is to provide specifications for what the brain itself
should experience. The brain provides the “specs” for
experience (perception) and the body in which the brain is
housed acts to keep keep what the brain experiences “up to
spec”.

              The principal activities of

brains are making changes in themselves. -Marvin
Minsky

              PY: What do my fellow PCTers think about this quote?
3

Well why didn’t you tell WTP about JGT back in the day, if you knew him since the 60s?

···

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu
wrote:

      RM: One of the principle activities of the brain certainly

must be making making changes in itself. But from a PCT
perspective I like to say that the principle activity of the
brain is to provide specifications for what the brain itself
should experience. The brain provides the “specs” for
experience (perception) and the body in which the brain is
housed acts to keep keep what the brain experiences “up to
spec”.

              The principal activities of

brains are making changes in themselves. -Marvin
Minsky

              PY: What do my fellow PCTers think about this quote?
4

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.21.19.45]

I heard about Powers after JGT died, and I didn't have a

special-version DeLorean.

Martin
···

On 2015/10/21 6:24 PM, PHILIP JERAIR
YERANOSIAN wrote:

  Well why didn't you tell WTP about JGT back in the

day, if you knew him since the 60s?

  On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <      >

wrote:

mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net

      [Martin Taylor

2015.10.21.16.58]

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.21.1340)]

              On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR

YERANOSIAN <>
wrote:

                    The principal activities

of brains are making changes in themselves.
-Marvin Minsky

                    PY: What do my fellow PCTers think about this

quote?

            RM: One of the principle activities of the brain

certainly must be making making changes in itself. But
from a PCT perspective I like to say that the principle
activity of the brain is to provide specifications for
what the brain itself should experience. The brain
provides the “specs” for experience (perception) and the
body in which the brain is housed acts to keep keep what
the brain experiences “up to spec”.

      Fascinating. You know, that could almost be a nano-review of

J.G. Taylor’s “The Behavioral Basis of Perception” ( Yale U.
P, 1962), which I reviewed for the Canadian Journal of
Psychology when it came out. I have long wished J. G. (no
relation, though I came to know him quite well) and W.T.P. had
met in the 1960s or 1970s. I think PCT would have been streets
ahead by now.

      I'm pretty sure that  J.G. would have quickly seen that his

perception-action-perception feedback theory would not have
been appreciably altered by substituting control and
reorganization for the Hullian reinforcement he had to use,
that being what he knew, while W.T.P. would have been handed a
theoretical and experimental basis for the perceptual side of
reorganization. In other words, the way I see it now, Jim
showed how the perceptions we have are built, maintained and
adapted because by controlling them we survive in the real
environment, while Bill showed how they could be organized
(the control hierarchy) and how control can adapt
(reorganization). Their theories fit like two pieces of a
jigsaw, and both did plenty of experiments and demonstrations
in complete ignorance of each other (so far as I know). Pity.

      Martin

pyeranos@ucla.edu

5

when did you hear about powers?

···

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR
YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu
wrote:

            RM: One of the principle activities of the brain

certainly must be making making changes in itself. But
from a PCT perspective I like to say that the principle
activity of the brain is to provide specifications for
what the brain itself should experience. The brain
provides the “specs” for experience (perception) and the
body in which the brain is housed acts to keep keep what
the brain experiences “up to spec”.

                    The principal activities

of brains are making changes in themselves.
-Marvin Minsky

                    PY: What do my fellow PCTers think about this

quote?

6

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.21.22.51]

I don't remember exactly, but it must have been around 1990, because

by 1992 I had already been asked by a colleague on a NATO research
group to give a four-hour keynote tutorial in Paris on the Layered
Protocol approach to human-computer interaction, and had recognized
that LPT was a specialized application of PCT
.I had been
trying to get the group to understand PCT, and that was the reason
for the invitation. I don’t remember when JGT died, because at my
age decades go by too fast, but I think it must have been late 70s
or early 80s. He had retired when I met him first in the early
1960s.
Martin

···

On 2015/10/21 8:11 PM, PHILIP JERAIR
YERANOSIAN wrote:

when did you hear about powers?

http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/ParisTutorial.pdf

  On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <      >

wrote:

mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net

      [Martin Taylor

2015.10.21.19.45]

      I heard about Powers after JGT died, and I didn't have a

special-version DeLorean.

      Martin

On 2015/10/21 6:24 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN wrote:

        Well why didn't you tell WTP about JGT

back in the day, if you knew him since the 60s?

        On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <> wrote:

mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net

            [Martin Taylor

2015.10.21.16.58]

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.21.1340)]

                    On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR

YERANOSIAN <>
wrote:

                          The principal

activities of brains are making changes in
themselves. -Marvin Minsky

                          PY: What do my fellow PCTers think about

this quote?

                  RM: One of the principle activities of the brain

certainly must be making making changes in itself.
But from a PCT perspective I like to say that the
principle activity of the brain is to provide
specifications for what the brain itself should
experience. The brain provides the “specs” for
experience (perception) and the body in which the
brain is housed acts to keep keep what the brain
experiences “up to spec”.

            Fascinating. You know, that could almost be a

nano-review of J.G. Taylor’s “The Behavioral Basis of
Perception” ( Yale U. P, 1962), which I reviewed for the
Canadian Journal of Psychology when it came out. I have
long wished J. G. (no relation, though I came to know
him quite well) and W.T.P. had met in the 1960s or
1970s. I think PCT would have been streets ahead by now.

            I'm pretty sure that  J.G. would have quickly seen that

his perception-action-perception feedback theory would
not have been appreciably altered by substituting
control and reorganization for the Hullian reinforcement
he had to use, that being what he knew, while W.T.P.
would have been handed a theoretical and experimental
basis for the perceptual side of reorganization. In
other words, the way I see it now, Jim showed how the
perceptions we have are built, maintained and adapted
because by controlling them we survive in the real
environment, while Bill showed how they could be
organized (the control hierarchy) and how control can
adapt (reorganization). Their theories fit like two
pieces of a jigsaw, and both did plenty of experiments
and demonstrations in complete ignorance of each other
(so far as I know). Pity.

            Martin

pyeranos@ucla.edu

7

So you couldn’t tell JGT about WTP. Was WTP at least aware of JGT’s research?

···

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR
YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu
wrote:

                  RM: One of the principle activities of the brain

certainly must be making making changes in itself.
But from a PCT perspective I like to say that the
principle activity of the brain is to provide
specifications for what the brain itself should
experience. The brain provides the “specs” for
experience (perception) and the body in which the
brain is housed acts to keep keep what the brain
experiences “up to spec”.

                          The principal

activities of brains are making changes in
themselves. -Marvin Minsky

                          PY: What do my fellow PCTers think about

this quote?

8

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.22.12.51]

It's hard to know. I mentioned his work a few times when I first

joined the predecessor of CSGnet, but it got blown off as not being
control, which, of course it wasn’t. So your question hinges on the
meaning of “aware”. Does the fact that I mentioned it two or three
times around 1990 mean he had to have been aware of it? I’d be
surprised if he was aware that JGTs work supported his, or if he was
aware of all of JGT’s demonstrations (which include a movie of
Seymour Papert learning to ride a bike when wearing reversing
spectacles, and then being able to ride while putting the spectacles
on and taking them off, and falling when he was given spectacles
that felt the same but didn’t reverse left-right. Making the movie
must have been quite painful for Papert (who contributed a chapter
to Jim’s book), but it was funny to watch. I can’t find it on the
web, and I wonder if it still exists). One of JGT’s published
demonstrations is the development of a new perception – blindsight
in a sighted person, the ability to locate an object and distinguish
it among similar objects by sound alone. The key was the behavioural
feedback loop. I don’t know if WTP was aware of it.
Martin

···

On 2015/10/22 12:12 PM, PHILIP JERAIR
YERANOSIAN wrote:

  So you couldn't tell JGT about WTP. Was WTP at least

aware of JGT’s research?

  On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <      >

wrote:

mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net

      [Martin Taylor

2015.10.21.22.51]

On 2015/10/21 8:11 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN wrote:

when did you hear about powers?

      I don't remember exactly, but it must have been around 1990,

because by 1992 I had already been asked by a colleague on a
NATO research group to give a four-hour keynote tutorial in
Paris on the Layered Protocol approach to human-computer
interaction, and had recognized that LPT was a specialized
application of PCT http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/ParisTutorial.pdf .I
had been trying to get the group to understand PCT, and that
was the reason for the invitation. I don’t remember when JGT
died, because at my age decades go by too fast, but I think it
must have been late 70s or early 80s. He had retired when I
met him first in the early 1960s.

      Martin

        On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <> wrote:

mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net

            [Martin Taylor

2015.10.21.19.45]

            I heard about Powers after JGT died, and I didn't have a

special-version DeLorean.

            Martin


              On 2015/10/21 6:24 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN

wrote:

              Well why didn't you tell WTP

about JGT back in the day, if you knew him since the
60s?

              On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <> wrote:

mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net

                  [Martin

Taylor 2015.10.21.16.58]

                      [From Rick Marken

(2015.10.21.1340)]

                          On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP

JERAIR YERANOSIAN <>
wrote:

                                The principal

activities of brains are making
changes in themselves. -Marvin
Minsky

                                PY: What do my fellow PCTers think

about this quote?

                        RM: One of the principle activities of the

brain certainly must be making making
changes in itself. But from a PCT
perspective I like to say that the principle
activity of the brain is to provide
specifications for what the brain itself
should experience. The brain provides the
“specs” for experience (perception) and the
body in which the brain is housed acts to
keep keep what the brain experiences “up to
spec”.

                  Fascinating. You know, that could almost be a

nano-review of J.G. Taylor’s “The Behavioral Basis
of Perception” ( Yale U. P, 1962), which I
reviewed for the Canadian Journal of Psychology
when it came out. I have long wished J. G. (no
relation, though I came to know him quite well)
and W.T.P. had met in the 1960s or 1970s. I think
PCT would have been streets ahead by now.

                  I'm pretty sure that  J.G. would have quickly seen

that his perception-action-perception feedback
theory would not have been appreciably altered by
substituting control and reorganization for the
Hullian reinforcement he had to use, that being
what he knew, while W.T.P. would have been handed
a theoretical and experimental basis for the
perceptual side of reorganization. In other words,
the way I see it now, Jim showed how the
perceptions we have are built, maintained and
adapted because by controlling them we survive in
the real environment, while Bill showed how they
could be organized (the control hierarchy) and how
control can adapt (reorganization). Their theories
fit like two pieces of a jigsaw, and both did
plenty of experiments and demonstrations in
complete ignorance of each other (so far as I
know). Pity.

                  Martin

pyeranos@ucla.edu

9

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.22.14.59]

[Richard Pfau (2015.10.22 13:00 EDST)]

Martin,

      Thanks for mentioning and providing access to .

Very informative!

With Regards,

Richard Pfau

        You are

most welcome!

    Martin
···

http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/ParisTutorial.pdfmmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
csgnet@lists.illinois.edu

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.21.22.51]

          I don't remember exactly, but it must have been around

1990, because by 1992 I had already been asked by a
colleague on a NATO research group to give a four-hour
keynote tutorial in Paris on the Layered Protocol approach
to human-computer interaction, and had recognized that LPT
was a specialized application of PCT .I
had been trying to get the group to understand PCT, and
that was the reason for the invitation. I don’t remember
when JGT died, because at my age decades go by too fast,
but I think it must have been late 70s or early 80s. He
had retired when I met him first in the early 1960s.
Martin

            On 2015/10/21 8:11 PM, PHILIP

JERAIR YERANOSIAN wrote:

            when did you hear about

powers?

http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/ParisTutorial.pdf

            On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <>

wrote:
mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
[Martin Taylor 2015.10.21.19.45]

                I heard about Powers after JGT died, and I didn't

have a special-version DeLorean.

                Martin


                  On 2015/10/21 6:24 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN

wrote:

                  Well why didn't you tell WTP about JGT

back in the day, if you knew him since the 60s?

                  On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, Martin Taylor <>

wrote:

mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.21.16.58]

                          [From Rick Marken

(2015.10.21.1340)]

                              On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM,

PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN <>
wrote:

                                    The

principal activities of brains
are making changes in
themselves. -Marvin Minsky

                                    PY: What do my fellow PCTers

think about this quote?

                            RM: One of the principle activities of

the brain certainly must be making
making changes in itself. But from a PCT
perspective I like to say that the
principle activity of the brain is to
provide specifications for what the
brain itself should experience. The
brain provides the “specs” for
experience (perception) and the body in
which the brain is housed acts to keep
keep what the brain experiences “up to
spec”.

                      Fascinating. You know, that could almost be a

nano-review of J.G. Taylor’s “The Behavioral
Basis of Perception” ( Yale U. P, 1962), which
I reviewed for the Canadian Journal of
Psychology when it came out. I have long
wished J. G. (no relation, though I came to
know him quite well) and W.T.P. had met in the
1960s or 1970s. I think PCT would have been
streets ahead by now.

                      I'm pretty sure that  J.G. would have quickly

seen that his perception-action-perception
feedback theory would not have been
appreciably altered by substituting control
and reorganization for the Hullian
reinforcement he had to use, that being what
he knew, while W.T.P. would have been handed a
theoretical and experimental basis for the
perceptual side of reorganization. In other
words, the way I see it now, Jim showed how
the perceptions we have are built, maintained
and adapted because by controlling them we
survive in the real environment, while Bill
showed how they could be organized (the
control hierarchy) and how control can adapt
(reorganization). Their theories fit like two
pieces of a jigsaw, and both did plenty of
experiments and demonstrations in complete
ignorance of each other (so far as I know).
Pity.

                      Martin

pyeranos@ucla.edu

10

The principal activities of brains are making changes in themselves. -Marvin Minsky

What do my fellow PCTers think about this quote?

11

From the point of the view of an observer of the brain, perhaps that is so. He may have extrapolated from the behavior of nerve cells in vitro. Our concern in PCT is from the point of view of the control hierarchy embodied in the brain, but the vehicle for that point of view is obviously relevant. I have long wondered what inputs are controlled by the cells in the brain, from their points of view. What’s in it for the cell? There are also points of view from the several levels of the hierarchy, from the several sensory modalities, and perhaps even from anatomically or functionally identifiable parts of the brain, though I am not a fan of the neo-phrenology popularly known in cogsci as modularity.

···

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 9:53 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

The principal activities of brains are making changes in themselves. -Marvin Minsky

What do my fellow PCTers think about this quote?