Miracles (was Conversation Analysis (CA))

[From Rick Marken (980402.1510)]

Me:

The main point is that all this changing, whether it be of
goals or perceptions, is done by a system that is "outside"
the control hierarchy.

Bruce Gregory (980402.1640 EST) --

Aha. "Then a miracle happens..."

Not quite. Bill P. and Tom B. have built models of reorganization
and Dick Robertson has done some nice studies of the process. We
still don't know much about reorganization (as it happens in
therapy, for example) but it's not completely in "miracle"
territory.

No wonder I encounter such resistence.

The only resistence I see is to your idea that perceptions "call
forth" actions. I agree with you that reorganization seems rather
miraculous. I have no idea, for example, why Tom B. and I were
able to reorganize our conventional psychologist selves into PCT
selves while virtually every other conventional psychologist I've
met has not been unable to do it. It looks like a "miracle" to me.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (980402.2120 EST)]

Rick Marken (980402.1510)]

Me:

The main point is that all this changing, whether it be of
goals or perceptions, is done by a system that is "outside"
the control hierarchy.

Bruce Gregory (980402.1640 EST) --

Aha. "Then a miracle happens..."

Not quite. Bill P. and Tom B. have built models of reorganization
and Dick Robertson has done some nice studies of the process. We
still don't know much about reorganization (as it happens in
therapy, for example) but it's not completely in "miracle"
territory.

No wonder I encounter such resistence.

The only resistence I see is to your idea that perceptions "call
forth" actions. I agree with you that reorganization seems rather
miraculous. I have no idea, for example, why Tom B. and I were
able to reorganize our conventional psychologist selves into PCT
selves while virtually every other conventional psychologist I've
met has not been unable to do it. It looks like a "miracle" to me.

Since you are in a (relatively) contrite mood (I am reminded of the famous
opening sentence of Jim Watson's _The Double Helix_: "I have never seen
Francis Crick in a modest mood.") I will try to explain why I was driven to
an emphasis on perception (forget about the "call forth" part it is only
metaphorical and it obviously doesn't work for you.) I realized that I
cannot adjust my reference levels, nor should I expect to be able to do so
in an HPCT model. Reorganization, as far as I could see, is no help.
Reorganization is a process that either (a) leads to random changes in the
reference levels or (b) is a "puppet master" that runs the HPC hierarchy. If
(a) is true, changes are just as likely to make things worse which is O.K.
while the system is "hunting" for a solution, but hardly helps if you are
trying to limit your intake of Jack Daniel's. If (b) is the case we have
created a homunculus that looks suspiciously like a "soul". I settled on the
idea that a higher level system would have to alter the reference of a lower
system, and it could only do this if it were experiencing an error. If it
were not experiencing and error, how to make it do so? The only way I could
see to do this was to give it a new perception _and_ a reference level
associated with that new perception. ("See, grip the racket like this."
"Like this?" "No. like this." "Oh, I see...") This seemed to me to be the
way I learned to do anything new. I had to find a perceptual distinction
that allowed me to create a new domain of control. Trying to reset reference
levels associated with old perceptions got me nowhere. My attention seems to
play a key role in allowing reorganization to take place (type (a)
reorganization)). This is why I am enamoured of new possibilities of
perception. It is not perfect, but it seems a lot less miraculous, and truer
to my experience, than "consciousness resetting reference levels." I'm much
happier with consciousness as an observer than cannot directly affect the
hierarchy--as Bill first proposed.

Bruce

[From Rick Marken (980402.2200)]

Bruce Gregory (980402.2120 EST)

I realized that I cannot adjust my reference levels, nor should I
expect to be able to do so in an HPCT model.

But we can easily adjust our reference levels voluntarily. That's
what we are doing when we change from keeping the cursor aligned
with the target to keeping it 2 cm to the left of the target; or
when we change the clench of our hand from fist to open, etc, etc.

Reorganization, as far as I could see, is no help.

Reorganization does help; you can see it improving the initially
poor controlling done by Bill's "Little Man".

This seemed to me to be the way I learned to do anything new. I
had to find a perceptual distinction that allowed me to create
a new domain of control.

I agree that learning new perceptual variables to control is an
important aspect of reorganization. I believe that what rankled me
about your earlier post was the suggestion that the way to solve
control problems is to perceive things in a new way -- like
perceiving the Jack Daniels in such a way that you don't want
to drink it. I reacted to this because it sounded to me like a
recommendation to hallucinate: "you can solve your drinking
problem by learning to perceive the Jack Daniels as swill
instead of the delicious, intoxicating brown liquor that it is".

Rather than saying that the way to deal with troublesome
perceptions (a nagging wife, a seductive bottle of booze,
a boring job) is by learning to perceive things differently,
how about saying that the way to deal with control problems
is by learning to control different perceptual variables?
I bet this is what you meant anyway and I just misinterpreted
your earlier statement in my constant rush to be contrary;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bruce Gregory (980402.0535 EST)]

Rick Marken (980402.2200)]

Bruce Gregory (980402.2120 EST)

I realized that I cannot adjust my reference levels, nor should I
expect to be able to do so in an HPCT model.

But we can easily adjust our reference levels voluntarily. That's
what we are doing when we change from keeping the cursor aligned
with the target to keeping it 2 cm to the left of the target; or
when we change the clench of our hand from fist to open, etc, etc.

Yes, I know. I've wrestled with this too. How do we manage to apparently
change some reference levels easily and "voluntarily", while others remain
so hard to affect? My guess is that we are controlling at a higher level and
this higher level adjusts our reference for cursor position in its effort to
maintain control. Make sense?

Reorganization, as far as I could see, is no help.

Reorganization does help; you can see it improving the initially
poor controlling done by Bill's "Little Man".

This seemed to me to be the way I learned to do anything new. I
had to find a perceptual distinction that allowed me to create
a new domain of control.

I agree that learning new perceptual variables to control is an
important aspect of reorganization. I believe that what rankled me
about your earlier post was the suggestion that the way to solve
control problems is to perceive things in a new way -- like
perceiving the Jack Daniels in such a way that you don't want
to drink it. I reacted to this because it sounded to me like a
recommendation to hallucinate: "you can solve your drinking
problem by learning to perceive the Jack Daniels as swill
instead of the delicious, intoxicating brown liquor that it is".

Yes, I suspected as much. No, I wasn't recommending hallucination. (Although
it does have its charms :wink: )

Rather than saying that the way to deal with troublesome
perceptions (a nagging wife, a seductive bottle of booze,
a boring job) is by learning to perceive things differently,
how about saying that the way to deal with control problems
is by learning to control different perceptual variables?

Perfect. Not only does that help me to see what I wanted to say, but it
helps me to say it differently in the future. That's what I meant about the
principle of charity. I know a few (very few!) people who are brilliant at
it. They can take the stupidest statement and respond to it as though it was
brilliantly thoughtful. This approach has many virtues. First it makes the
question feel good about him/her self. Second it leaves them open to
accepting something they might otherwise reject as threatening. I wish I
could do it more often...

I bet this is what you meant anyway and I just misinterpreted
your earlier statement in my constant rush to be contrary;-)

Fortunately I _never_ get defensive ;-).

Bruce the Repentant