MOL not written in grant

[From Dick Robertson] (980217.0647CDT)

[From Bill Powers (980215.0843 MST)]

Dick Robertson (980215.0717CDT) --

What I wish here is that you could report the interaction as close to
verbatim as possible.

I second the motion. However, verbatim transcripts are somewhat expensive
to produce -- either in your own highly-valuable time, or using hired help.
I wonder whether it could be time to seek some grant money -- would a
health insurer see some point in funding research into more efficient
(hence shorter-term) therapy?

If money were forthcoming, it could be used to get transcripts made, or to
purchase voice-recognition programs that would give a fairly accurate
printed output from tape-recorded inputs.

Are you listening David? I'm not connected with an institution any more, and
it's been so long since I've written a grant proposal I couldn't remember how.
What we need is an enterprising young fellow like David Goldstein at this
point.

In the mean time, of course, we have your next set of chatroom trials, and I
hope you would be able to take enough notes to reproduce short segments from a
session like I did, so we can look at the actual exchange of words.

Then, the next problem area I'd like to bring up for discussion is that of
intractable behavior, like overeating, etc. or going back to the same partner
who keeps beating up on you figuratively or literally. This brings up the
whole ball of wax of habit and compulsion. I don't think anybody knows nearly
enough yet about these topics, and what I find with trying to bring in the MOL
is that the person says, "Yes, I _know_ that isn't good for me but I can't help
myself." Reorganization goes on in cognition but doesn't seem to touch the RS
conflict in the habit-area.

What say anybody?

[From Bill Powers (980217.0619MST)]

Dick Robertson (980217.0647CDT)--

Then, the next problem area I'd like to bring up for discussion is that of
intractable behavior, like overeating, etc. or going back to the same partner
who keeps beating up on you figuratively or literally. This brings up the
whole ball of wax of habit and compulsion. I don't think anybody knows

nearly

enough yet about these topics, and what I find with trying to bring in the

MOL

is that the person says, "Yes, I _know_ that isn't good for me but I can't

help

myself." Reorganization goes on in cognition but doesn't seem to touch

the RS

conflict in the habit-area.

What's "the RS conflict"?

This seems like a good time to give public thanks to Mike Acree. Two weeks
ago, I got a book from Mike called _Allen Carr's easy way to stop smoking._
I finished the book on Feb. 4th, and haven't had a cigarette since. I've
waited this long just to see if it was for real. It appears to be so. You
were very brave, Mike, and I thank you for your temerity.

Sticker inside the book:

Allen Carr's Easyway USA
12823 Kingsbridge Lane
Houston TX 77077
(281) 597 1904

I don't know if I'm really ready to talk about this yet. A couple of
observations, maybe.

1. Carr is anything but nondirective. You need to be ready to quit, and you
need to make a committment to go all the way through the book and do what
he says. In effect, I decided to put myself in his hands instead of being
self-controlling. The MOL was in the back of my mind all the way, at Mike's
suggestion, but I wasn't trying to analyze Carr's method.

2. Carr uses every trick to get the reader to look at what smoking is
really like. He knows every rationalization, every excuse, every
misperception involved in smoking; somewhere in there I'm sure he touches
on every reader's exact hangup. This is like the MOL with a lot of guessing
about the next level up. He gets it right often enough to outweigh the
wrong guesses.

3. Carr understands the tricky logic of the conflict behind smoking (and
I'm sure behind a lot of other bad habits -- if I'd been trying to stop
drinking the same approach would have worked). He pounds that message home
as if talking to an especially stupid child, which basically is the case.
The message goes like this: You are smoking to cure the feeling that is
caused by smoking. This feeling is what we call "wanting a cigarette." This
feeling is not painful; it's just a sense of emptiness, and if you smoke a
cigarette or two you can make it (a) go away, and (b) come back stronger in
a few minutes. The only thing pleasant about smoking a cigarette is that it
makes this unpleasant emptiness, which is caused by smoking cigarettes, go
away so that for a moment it's as if you had never started smoking. If you
had never started smoking you would never want a cigarette; people who do
not smoke do not get this empty feeling. That's because it's caused by
smoking. Got it, stupid?

I don't know if the pure nondirective MOL could lead a person to understand
this message spontaneously. Actually, just a few days before the book
arrived from Mike, I had pretty much worked out the basic problem, which
was that I was smoking to get rid of the feelings caused by smoking. But I
didn't see where to go from there. For me, where to go from there was to
have someone else to whom I had given over control rub my nose in that idea
until I actually grasped it. This idea is so startling and so simple that
it simply doesn't connect at first. It's sort of like grasping PCT for the
first time -- everything in you yells that it can't be that simple. If it's
that simple, how come I didn't understand it long ago?

But of course it is that simple. I was smoking to get rid of the feeling
that is caused by smoking, just as I used to drink to get rid of the
feelings that are caused by drinking. Something in me still drops its jaw
at that. But it's starting to seem real.

Enough of that.

Best,

Bill P.

From Dick Robertson] (980217.0647CDT); Fred Nickols(980217.1610)

About recording therapy sessions:

For purposes of studying the MOL process in therapy, we have to solve
the problem of how to get transcripts of therapy sessions. I am
skeptical that the available software can do this with any kind of
accuracy. I am also skeptical that anything but the struggling DMG
Foundation would support MOL research at this point.

I would appreciate tips from people who have recorded meetings. I have
no need to reinvent the wheel.

About breaking habits:

I wonder whether the approach which Bill talked about would work with
eating. The strategy of abstaining from the addictive substance can be
followed for cigarettes and alcoholic beverages. It can't be followed
with eating. When a person tries to do it, we wind up with an eating
disorder such as anorexia and bulemia.

It is interesting that Bill made a decision to give up control to the
author of the book. This is what the AA/NA people have people do: Admit
to a problem, admit to no control over it, put yourself in the care of
another party who claims to have an answer(higher power, for example).

I like the idea of looking at an effective therapy and thinking about it
in terms of PCT. Seems like Bill is reconsidering some of his
previously stated views on therapy.

Bill Powers wrote:

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re: MOL not written in grant; Bill Powers (980217.0619MST);
Date: 2/18/98

[From Bill Powers (980217.0619MST)]

Dick Robertson (980217.0647CDT)--

>Then, the next problem area I'd like to bring up for discussion is that of
>intractable behavior, like overeating, etc. or going back to the same partner
>who keeps beating up on you figuratively or literally. This brings up the
>whole ball of wax of habit and compulsion. I don't think anybody knows
nearly
>enough yet about these topics, and what I find with trying to bring in the
MOL
>is that the person says, "Yes, I _know_ that isn't good for me but I can't
help
>myself." Reorganization goes on in cognition but doesn't seem to touch
the RS
>conflict in the habit-area.

What's "the RS conflict"?

This seems like a good time to give public thanks to Mike Acree. Two weeks
ago, I got a book from Mike called _Allen Carr's easy way to stop smoking._
I finished the book on Feb. 4th, and haven't had a cigarette since. I've
waited this long just to see if it was for real. It appears to be so. You
were very brave, Mike, and I thank you for your temerity.

Sticker inside the book:

Allen Carr's Easyway USA
12823 Kingsbridge Lane
Houston TX 77077
(281) 597 1904

I don't know if I'm really ready to talk about this yet. A couple of
observations, maybe.

1. Carr is anything but nondirective. You need to be ready to quit, and you
need to make a committment to go all the way through the book and do what
he says. In effect, I decided to put myself in his hands instead of being
self-controlling. The MOL was in the back of my mind all the way, at Mike's
suggestion, but I wasn't trying to analyze Carr's method.

2. Carr uses every trick to get the reader to look at what smoking is
really like. He knows every rationalization, every excuse, every
misperception involved in smoking; somewhere in there I'm sure he touches
on every reader's exact hangup. This is like the MOL with a lot of guessing
about the next level up. He gets it right often enough to outweigh the
wrong guesses.

3. Carr understands the tricky logic of the conflict behind smoking (and
I'm sure behind a lot of other bad habits -- if I'd been trying to stop
drinking the same approach would have worked). He pounds that message home
as if talking to an especially stupid child, which basically is the case.
The message goes like this: You are smoking to cure the feeling that is
caused by smoking. This feeling is what we call "wanting a cigarette." This
feeling is not painful; it's just a sense of emptiness, and if you smoke a
cigarette or two you can make it (a) go away, and (b) come back stronger in
a few minutes. The only thing pleasant about smoking a cigarette is that it
makes this unpleasant emptiness, which is caused by smoking cigarettes, go
away so that for a moment it's as if you had never started smoking. If you
had never started smoking you would never want a cigarette; people who do
not smoke do not get this empty feeling. That's because it's caused by
smoking. Got it, stupid?

I don't know if the pure nondirective MOL could lead a person to understand
this message spontaneously. Actually, just a few days before the book
arrived from Mike, I had pretty much worked out the basic problem, which
was that I was smoking to get rid of the feelings caused by smoking. But I
didn't see where to go from there. For me, where to go from there was to
have someone else to whom I had given over control rub my nose in that idea
until I actually grasped it. This idea is so startling and so simple that
it simply doesn't connect at first. It's sort of like grasping PCT for the
first time -- everything in you yells that it can't be that simple. If it's
that simple, how come I didn't understand it long ago?

But of course it is that simple. I was smoking to get rid of the feeling
that is caused by smoking, just as I used to drink to get rid of the
feelings that are caused by drinking. Something in me still drops its jaw
at that. But it's starting to seem real.

Enough of that.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (980218.1542 MST)]

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re: MOL not written in grant; Bill Powers (980217.0619MST);

From Dick Robertson] (980217.0647CDT); Fred Nickols(980217.1610)

Date: 2/18/98

About recording therapy sessions:

For purposes of studying the MOL process in therapy, we have to solve
the problem of how to get transcripts of therapy sessions. I am
skeptical that the available software can do this with any kind of
accuracy. I am also skeptical that anything but the struggling DMG
Foundation would support MOL research at this point.

I suggest getting an appointment with an insurance company executive and
telling him or her what we're trying to do. The pitch is that we want to
find out whether the MOL can speed therapy, at least in some identifiable
subset of cases. The support we need for a pilot study is minimal, and the
potential returns for insurers who are obligated to pay for mental health
treatments are considerable.

The available software isn't perfect, but it would vastly reduce the time
needed to get a clean transcript of a session. The session would already be
in a text file, and all that would be needed would be editing against a
playback of the tape.

About breaking habits:

I wonder whether the approach which Bill talked about would work with
eating. The strategy of abstaining from the addictive substance can be
followed for cigarettes and alcoholic beverages. It can't be followed
with eating. When a person tries to do it, we wind up with an eating
disorder such as anorexia and bulemia.

I suspect that the problem with overeating is different. However,
undereating would be similar in that not eating creates a feeling of
emptiness, which the anorexic might being trying to cure by not eating.

With smoking, the problem for at least some people is a misattribution of
the cause of an unpleasant feeling. Also, the act that removes the
unpleasant feeling also happens to be the cause of its return. This would
seem to apply to bulemia the most directly: overeating fills the empty spot
but the result is an unpleasant feeling that is removed by purging. The
purging, or course, leads to that unpleasant empty feeling, normally known
as being hungry.

I don't know how all this would work out under the MOL, but it's worth a look.

Best,

Bill P.

···

It is interesting that Bill made a decision to give up control to the
author of the book. This is what the AA/NA people have people do: Admit
to a problem, admit to no control over it, put yourself in the care of
another party who claims to have an answer(higher power, for example).

I like the idea of looking at an effective therapy and thinking about it
in terms of PCT. Seems like Bill is reconsidering some of his
previously stated views on therapy.

[From Bruce Nevin (980219.0545)]

Bill Powers (980217.0619MST)--

Two weeks
ago, I got a book from Mike called _Allen Carr's easy way to stop smoking._
I finished the book on Feb. 4th, and haven't had a cigarette since. I've
waited this long just to see if it was for real. It appears to be so.

Congratulations!

I don't know if I'm really ready to talk about this yet.

Sounds like you're still reorganizing.

3. Carr understands the tricky logic of the conflict behind smoking (and
I'm sure behind a lot of other bad habits [...] He pounds that message home
as if talking to an especially stupid child, which basically is the case.
The message goes like this: You are smoking to cure the feeling that is
caused by smoking. This feeling is what we call "wanting a cigarette." This
feeling is not painful; it's just a sense of emptiness, and if you smoke a
cigarette or two you can make it (a) go away, and (b) come back stronger in
a few minutes. The only thing pleasant about smoking a cigarette is that it
makes this unpleasant emptiness, which is caused by smoking cigarettes, go
away so that for a moment it's as if you had never started smoking. If you
had never started smoking you would never want a cigarette; people who do
not smoke do not get this empty feeling. That's because it's caused by
smoking. Got it, stupid?

Intelligence and intellectual honesty are core values for you. To be
successful with some other people that I have known he might have to cover
emotional moves like

* So I'm stupid. What else is new. <plunge>

* Yeah, but right now I really *need* a reward, I feel so awful, life
(people, person X) is so unfair! <plunge>

* Yeah, but I really *deserve* a reward right now. <plunge>

Does he?

I started smoking when I was about 14, quit after about a year and a half.
Whatever the truth of the matter, I have always identified as a key to my
quitting the experience of seeing my father quit smoking. We lived in a
trailer park. There was a public laundry/bathroom building in the center of
the park. I found a pack of his Old Golds hidden there. "Wait a minute!
What is wrong with this picture? I'm the adolescent here!" I was also lucky
that I was not a heavy smoker, and it was not established as part of my
social identity and my way of affirming relationships.

Self image seems to be part of this.

  Bruce Nevin

[From Fred Nickols (980219.1455 EST)]

Bill Powers (980218.1542 MST)--

I suggest getting an appointment with an insurance company executive and
telling him or her what we're trying to do. The pitch is that we want to
find out whether the MOL can speed therapy, at least in some identifiable
subset of cases. The support we need for a pilot study is minimal, and the
potential returns for insurers who are obligated to pay for mental health
treatments are considerable.

That's not where I'd go -- I'd try Nathan Myrhvold and the Natural Language
Processing unit at Microsoft.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
The Distance Consulting Company
nickols@worldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~nickols/distance.htm

[FRom Bill Powers (980220.0330 MST)]

Bruce Nevin (980219.0545)--

Intelligence and intellectual honesty are core values for you. To be
successful with some other people that I have known he might have to cover
emotional moves like

* So I'm stupid. What else is new. <plunge>

* Yeah, but right now I really *need* a reward, I feel so awful, life
(people, person X) is so unfair! <plunge>

* Yeah, but I really *deserve* a reward right now. <plunge>

Does he?

There's a limit to what kind of problems one can anticipate open-loop, but
yes, I think he [Allen Carr] touches on all these things. For example, the
"reward" thing is handled by saying, basically, "What do you mean,
'reward'? There's nothing pleasant about smoking." And he's right.

Self image seems to be part of this.

I go for simpler explanations. You didn't get hooked, but that's not
because of any fancy reasoning you did at the age of 14. Most likely, you
just didn't like how it felt to smoke, and didn't fall into the trap of
giving credit to the cigarette for curing the bad feelings caused by
smoking. As Carr puts it, you didn't learn to hit yourself on the head with
a hammer because it felt so good when you stopped.

Best,

Bill P.