MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches

Hello,

I've only recently become aware of the existence of Perceptual Control Theory from some roundabout link to Alvin Mahrer's "Experiential Psychotherapy." My first reaction was "wow" I can't believe I've never heard of this before. Briefly, as an introduction to my first post to this list, after a 4 year stint in prison 20 years ago, I paroled to a Zen Buddhist monastery and then to California where I obtained my Master's degree in Counseling Psychology from the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto. However, because I was on parole from a 25 year sentence, I was unable to register or be licensed as a Marriage and Family Therapist and didn't go on to complete my PhD to be licensed as a psychologist for the same reason.

Just last month, I discharged the parole and have been struggling with the desire to go back into the counseling field and to that extent have now applied to the Board of Behavioral Sciences to be registered as a Marriage and Family Therapist intern. Because of the convictions, I may or may not be allowed to register... I'm interested in a few areas including ex-offender re-entry, juvenile offenders, etc... and outside that group, just improving the experience and meaning in life for a more general population. If I'm not allowed to register I may even take the route of becoming a life coach or Un-Therapist to accomplish similar goals.

I'm very interested in knowing whether there are any licensed MFTs, Psychologists, or LCSW's in the Southern California area who are certified in ACT or use MOL or PCT in their work...? I've ordered Carey's MOL book and a couple of William Power's books to bone up on the subject, but even before receiving them, there is a resonance with what I've read so far and I want to absorb more...

Best wishes,

Keith

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.04.0801 MDT)]

Keith Daniels (2008.04.04) --

Kind of a rough start on a life, there -- I'm glad it's behind you. I probably have less to offer by way of encouragement than others might have, since I always earned my living doing something other than PCT research and never got any advanced degree. Probably your best best is to do what I did: find a way to make a living (I suggest one that leaves you walking around on the Outside), and give your all to PCT evenings and weekends until more opportunities open up. We're a lot closer to that now than ever before. You clearly deserve a second chance, but I guess you're going to have to make it for yourself. Maybe one of my colleagues here will be more useful.

Best regards,

Bill Powers

[From Dick Robertson,2008.04.04.0940CDT]

Cancel my question about Keith’s post. It has now appeared in my box. Must have been the time difference thing.

Best,

Dick R

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Powers powers_w@FRONTIER.NET
Date: Friday, April 4, 2008 9:15 am
Subject: Re: MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.04.0801 MDT)]

Keith Daniels (2008.04.04) –

Kind of a rough start on a life, there – I’m glad it’s behind
you. I
probably have less to offer by way of encouragement than others
might
have, since I always earned my living doing something other than
PCT
research and never got any advanced degree. Probably your best
best
is to do what I did: find a way to make a living (I suggest one
that
leaves you walking around on the Outside), and give your all to
PCT
evenings and weekends until more opportunities open up. We’re a
lot
closer to that now than ever before. You clearly deserve a
second
chance, but I guess you’re going to have to make it for
yourself.
Maybe one of my colleagues here will be more useful.

Best regards,

Bill Powers

[From Dick Robertson,2008.04.04.0944CDT]

···

From: Keith Daniels keith@BOOKBLOG.COM
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2008 10:50 pm
Subject: MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches

Keith,

I congratulate you on honing in on the real modern psychology. (I can say that because I’m not Bill Powers, the creator of it.) Bill’s suggestion to start by making a living however best you can and work on learning PCT in your avocation isn’t a bad one. Look what he did with such a plrogram.) But it might not be the only possibility. I see you are already exploring how you might use what you’ve learned in practical matters, and I hope one or the other of those plans works out for you. The internship idea might work, IF it pays enough so you can survive on it. And what about writing? Your letter suggests to me a certain literary capacity, and I wonder whether–with all the popular magazines that are out there–there might be openings for applying your special kinds of experience? Just a thought.

Good luck, and looking forward to hearing from you again. Oh, and what about scholarships to the upcoming PCT conference in Cherry Hill N J. Where do such things stand these days, Dr. David? (I e CSG president)

Best,

Dick R.

I’m very interested in knowing whether there are any licensed
MFTs,
Psychologists, or LCSW’s in the Southern California area who are
certified in ACT or use MOL or PCT in their work…?
I’ve ordered
Carey’s MOL book and a couple of William Power’s books to bone
up on the
subject, but even before receiving them, there is a resonance
with what
I’ve read so far and I want to absorb more…

Best wishes,

Keith

Dear Mr. Powers,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Despite my
experience with Zen Buddhism and Eastern philosophies, in general, which
tend to elevate the illuminated masters, I'm not personally prone to guru
worship. However, I am indeed honored and privileged to have the founder of
Perceptual Control Theory corresponding with me... I am grateful for your
thoughts.

I received some of your comments with a slight sense of humility and humor.
My start in life probably wasn't any rougher than most and it wasn't until
my mid to late twenties that my behavior escalated to the point where it was
out of control (slight pun intended). And thankfully, it's as behind me as
its ever going to get after being reborn into the free world over 15 years ago.

Psychology always had an intellectual interest for me, but it wasn't until I
had a lot of time on my hands (and toes and feet, etc) that I attempted to
delve deeper into to discern the causes and reasons of my own dilemma. Some
of those insights helped, some didn't. But all, in all... I've come to the
firm belief that taking personal responsibility is a key factor in healthy,
happy lives. Obtaining the advanced degree was something I pursued after
coming to the realization that I had put myself in a deficit and would need
something other than my charm and my incarceration on my resume to earn a
decent living after prison.

Fortunately for me, things improved dramatically. While studying at ITP, I
began working for a .com company in the late 90's and rode a wonderful wave
of startup, acquisition, ipo's, etc. that helped me make that living. Added
to that having the immense good fortune to meet and marry a wonderful
MD/research scientist who has helped keep my feet on the ground and on track
for the last 12 years.

I think you might have miscontrued/constructed my initial post. I wasn't
seeking someone to help me make a living, I was seeking a local,
professional resource that I might study with, under, etc. and learn more
about the Method of Levels and PCT-based therapy. I'm also more inclined at
this stage of life (closing in on my 50's) to make opportunities than to
wait for them to open up. From some of the real-world applications that I've
seen/read others using PCT for, it seems that there could be many such
opportunities. (All of which involve staying walking around on the outside,
unless I'm visiting a jail/prison to help someone the way so many others
helped me decades ago and still today.

I definitely have had and hopefully taken advantage of the 2nd chances that
have been given me. Though I do have a distinct opinion on the theory that
"freedom is just a state of mind." I'm also very aware (especially since
the .com bust, that "dues to society" can never fully be re-paid as long as
that box on job applications asking if you've ever been convicted still
needs to be checked off. But, under the rubric of taking personal
responsibility, that's just something that has to be lived with.

Thanks again for your reply and for putting PCT into the world for thought,
discussion, and practice... I look forward to putting much more effort into
learning it and to looking for opportunities to eventually practice it.

Best regards,

L. Keith Daniels

Dear Mr. Robertson (Dick),

Thank you also for your kind reply. I was honored to have the creator of PCT
reply to my initial post and did not take his comments as being the only
possibility or the shutting of doors to others. It's very hard to garner
tone and intent from email or online postings so I chose to accept those
comments as very heartfelt and since suggestions.

I'm touched that you deduced from my initial post any literary capabilities.
I have fantasized about writing, but would have to get beyond my tendency to
procrastinate and organizational deficits to make a real run at it. As the
old saw goes, everyone has a book in them... and I may eventually find one
or more... at least that's where the fantasy takes me. :slight_smile: But thank you
still, for your kind words.

Life's been pretty good to me lately, so whether an internship was paid
adequately or even unpaid) is not a deal breaker for me. I'm more interested
in doing something meaningful and thus, I'd still love to hear from or about
any licensed therapists that utilize PCT-based therapies in their practice.
If they have room to talk, teach, take on an intern...all the better.

I did stumble across the IAACT site and their certification trainings (New
Vision Publications?) in Applied Control Theory and may very well, sign up
for the June or January 2009 trainings. I assume this is different that the
upcoming PCT Conference that you referenced. I'd be more than happy to
learn more about the whens and wheres of that conference, scholarship or not.

Thanks again for your words and Best wishes,

L. Keith

[From Jason Gosnell 4.7.08 17:40 CST]

Keith...Were there any benefits to your Zen studies? Also, any pitfalls
you experienced? And, how did it related to your psychology work???

Kind Regards, Jason Gosnell

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU] On Behalf Of L. Keith Daniels
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:19 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches

Dear Mr. Powers,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Despite my
experience with Zen Buddhism and Eastern philosophies, in general, which
tend to elevate the illuminated masters, I'm not personally prone to
guru
worship. However, I am indeed honored and privileged to have the founder
of
Perceptual Control Theory corresponding with me... I am grateful for
your
thoughts.

I received some of your comments with a slight sense of humility and
humor.
My start in life probably wasn't any rougher than most and it wasn't
until
my mid to late twenties that my behavior escalated to the point where it
was
out of control (slight pun intended). And thankfully, it's as behind me
as
its ever going to get after being reborn into the free world over 15
years ago.

Psychology always had an intellectual interest for me, but it wasn't
until I
had a lot of time on my hands (and toes and feet, etc) that I attempted
to
delve deeper into to discern the causes and reasons of my own dilemma.
Some
of those insights helped, some didn't. But all, in all... I've come to
the
firm belief that taking personal responsibility is a key factor in
healthy,
happy lives. Obtaining the advanced degree was something I pursued
after
coming to the realization that I had put myself in a deficit and would
need
something other than my charm and my incarceration on my resume to earn
a
decent living after prison.

Fortunately for me, things improved dramatically. While studying at ITP,
I
began working for a .com company in the late 90's and rode a wonderful
wave
of startup, acquisition, ipo's, etc. that helped me make that living.
Added
to that having the immense good fortune to meet and marry a wonderful
MD/research scientist who has helped keep my feet on the ground and on
track
for the last 12 years.

I think you might have miscontrued/constructed my initial post. I wasn't
seeking someone to help me make a living, I was seeking a local,
professional resource that I might study with, under, etc. and learn
more
about the Method of Levels and PCT-based therapy. I'm also more inclined
at
this stage of life (closing in on my 50's) to make opportunities than to
wait for them to open up. From some of the real-world applications that
I've
seen/read others using PCT for, it seems that there could be many such
opportunities. (All of which involve staying walking around on the
outside,
unless I'm visiting a jail/prison to help someone the way so many others
helped me decades ago and still today.

I definitely have had and hopefully taken advantage of the 2nd chances
that
have been given me. Though I do have a distinct opinion on the theory
that
"freedom is just a state of mind." I'm also very aware (especially
since
the .com bust, that "dues to society" can never fully be re-paid as long
as
that box on job applications asking if you've ever been convicted still
needs to be checked off. But, under the rubric of taking personal
responsibility, that's just something that has to be lived with.

Thanks again for your reply and for putting PCT into the world for
thought,
discussion, and practice... I look forward to putting much more effort
into
learning it and to looking for opportunities to eventually practice it.

Best regards,

L. Keith Daniels

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the question. I'm not quite sure if I should branch it off this
particular discussion or answer it here, but since I don't know how to
create a new branch off a reply that effectively makes the decision for me. :slight_smile:

I'm sure religion (along with politics) are subjects that Mr. Powers has
already discovered tends toward polarization of individuals and can
de-generate into flame wars. I'll try by best to ward that off, by staying
within my personal experience.

I came to Zen practice after my incarceration. I had rejected a
fundamentalist background early in my life, but had not replaced it with
another religious or spiritual practice. Self-inquiry led me to the belief
that part of my poor decision making could be tracked back to not having
some of these larger/beyond self core beliefs and practices to fall back on.
I spent some time corresponding with several of what I perceived to be more
inclusive religious organizations and found my own beliefs in line with
Buddhist philosophy. To make a quite long story, short (not short enough, I
know)...I ended up requesting to be paroled to a Zen Buddhist Monastery in
upstate New York and remained there as a resident-student for almost 2
years, including the last 9 months or in the "honored" position of Tenzo or
head chef.

Anyway, if you're at all paying attention to trends in psychology, you will
have no doubt noticed that "mindfulness" and "awareness" practices and
Buddhist-oriented psychotherapy is becoming quite popular and books about
such, are easily found on Amazon and in book stores. Zen practice, for me,
was all about insight and mindfulness, reducing attachments, etc. It
reminds me a lot of cognitive therapy in that it is our perceptions and not
the actual events that cause our suffering. The practice helped me realize
that.

The last 9 months at the monastery as cook/head chef also made me realize
that this mindfulness could be found in activity, not just in sitting on a
cushion, separated from the world...

There's always more to tell, but hopefully, that gives you a flavor of what
it meant to me...

L. Keith

···

Keith...Were there any benefits to your Zen studies? Also, any pitfalls
you experienced? And, how did it related to your psychology work???

Kind Regards, Jason Gosnell

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU] On Behalf Of L. Keith Daniels
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:19 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches

Dear Mr. Powers,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Despite my
experience with Zen Buddhism and Eastern philosophies, in general, which
tend to elevate the illuminated masters, I'm not personally prone to
guru
worship. However, I am indeed honored and privileged to have the founder
of
Perceptual Control Theory corresponding with me... I am grateful for
your
thoughts.

I received some of your comments with a slight sense of humility and
humor.
My start in life probably wasn't any rougher than most and it wasn't
until
my mid to late twenties that my behavior escalated to the point where it
was
out of control (slight pun intended). And thankfully, it's as behind me
as
its ever going to get after being reborn into the free world over 15
years ago.

Psychology always had an intellectual interest for me, but it wasn't
until I
had a lot of time on my hands (and toes and feet, etc) that I attempted
to
delve deeper into to discern the causes and reasons of my own dilemma.
Some
of those insights helped, some didn't. But all, in all... I've come to
the
firm belief that taking personal responsibility is a key factor in
healthy,
happy lives. Obtaining the advanced degree was something I pursued
after
coming to the realization that I had put myself in a deficit and would
need
something other than my charm and my incarceration on my resume to earn
a
decent living after prison.

Fortunately for me, things improved dramatically. While studying at ITP,
I
began working for a .com company in the late 90's and rode a wonderful
wave
of startup, acquisition, ipo's, etc. that helped me make that living.
Added
to that having the immense good fortune to meet and marry a wonderful
MD/research scientist who has helped keep my feet on the ground and on
track
for the last 12 years.

I think you might have miscontrued/constructed my initial post. I wasn't
seeking someone to help me make a living, I was seeking a local,
professional resource that I might study with, under, etc. and learn
more
about the Method of Levels and PCT-based therapy. I'm also more inclined
at
this stage of life (closing in on my 50's) to make opportunities than to
wait for them to open up. From some of the real-world applications that
I've
seen/read others using PCT for, it seems that there could be many such
opportunities. (All of which involve staying walking around on the
outside,
unless I'm visiting a jail/prison to help someone the way so many others
helped me decades ago and still today.

I definitely have had and hopefully taken advantage of the 2nd chances
that
have been given me. Though I do have a distinct opinion on the theory
that
"freedom is just a state of mind." I'm also very aware (especially
since
the .com bust, that "dues to society" can never fully be re-paid as long
as
that box on job applications asking if you've ever been convicted still
needs to be checked off. But, under the rubric of taking personal
responsibility, that's just something that has to be lived with.

Thanks again for your reply and for putting PCT into the world for
thought,
discussion, and practice... I look forward to putting much more effort
into
learning it and to looking for opportunities to eventually practice it.

Best regards,

L. Keith Daniels

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.07.1736 MDT)]

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Despite my
experience with Zen Buddhism and Eastern philosophies, in general, which
tend to elevate the illuminated masters, I'm not personally prone to guru
worship. However, I am indeed honored and privileged to have the founder of
Perceptual Control Theory corresponding with me... I am grateful for your
thoughts.

When you get to know me better you will find that I am also averse to guru worship, whether as giver or taker.

I received some of your comments with a slight sense of humility and humor.
My start in life probably wasn't any rougher than most and it wasn't until
my mid to late twenties that my behavior escalated to the point where it was
out of control (slight pun intended). And thankfully, it's as behind me as
its ever going to get after being reborn into the free world over 15 years ago.

You don't have to worry about your past with me. I'm very much a present-timer. The only thing that matters about the past (or the future) is what you think about it now. What I think about your past doesn't matter at all. Looking back on my own life I can find times when I could have ended up going with either side of the Force. Let us rejoice in our luck, grasshopper (mixing my star wars and kung fu hopelessly together).

I think you might have miscontrued/constructed my initial post. I wasn't
seeking someone to help me make a living, I was seeking a local,
professional resource that I might study with, under, etc. and learn more
about the Method of Levels and PCT-based therapy.

Yes, I was a little suspicious. Not any more.

I'm also more inclined at this stage of life (closing in on my 50's) to make opportunities than to wait for them to open up. From some of the real-world applications that I've seen/read others using PCT for, it seems that there could be many such opportunities. (All of which involve staying walking around on the outside, unless I'm visiting a jail/prison to help someone the way so many others helped me decades ago and still today.

Joining up with a scientific revolution in progress, while only in your forties, would be a heck of an adventure, and I envy you. You're more likely to be put to work than educated, but there may be ways for you to do it.

There are three centers where the method of levels is being developed as part of official clinical practices: Manchester University, England (Warren Mansell there and the Spratts from Scotland), University of Canberra, Australia (Tim and Margaret Carey), and Cherry Hill, New Jersey (David Goldstein and colleagues at a state facility for youthful offenders). To join up with any of those efforts you'd have to get a degree in clinical psychology to get licensed to practice, I would assume. They can tell you. IAACT is a notch or two lower on the academic scale, being run by professionals but not academics for the most part (there are some PhDs involved). There isn't much difference in my mind between the full and semi academics in terms of ability to apply the MOL and I think they're all giving it a good try. Also, I see nothing against just doing it, as long as you don't run afoul of state licensing regulations. It's best to learn MOL with others who are also learning, so maybe you can hook up with some PCTers who haven't yet started actual tryouts of the approach. Give them an incentive to get off dead center. They can lead you generously to a state of knowledge, while trying to get there themselves.

Maybe someone could come up with an idea for an internship.

Judging from your time zone, David Goldstein is probably the nearest. He's a workaholic, but may have time to offer some advice or suggestions (though as an MOL practitioner he is supposed to put a strict limit on that sort of thing).

Best regards,

Bill P.

When you get to know me better you will find that I am also averse to
guru worship, whether as giver or taker.

I hope I have the opportunity to do that... :slight_smile:

You don't have to worry about your past with me. I'm very much a
present-timer. The only thing that matters about the past (or the
future) is what you think about it now. What I think about your past
doesn't matter at all. Looking back on my own life I can find times
when I could have ended up going with either side of the Force. Let
us rejoice in our luck, grasshopper (mixing my star wars and kung fu
hopelessly together).

One of my favorite TV shows and favorite movies from the 70's. Had me smiling.

Yes, I was a little suspicious. Not any more.

I've learned a little suspicion isn't always a bad thing... :slight_smile:

Joining up with a scientific revolution in progress, while only in
your forties, would be a heck of an adventure, and I envy you. You're
more likely to be put to work than educated, but there may be ways
for you to do it.

That IS definitely an exciting thought. As you might have already been able
to tell, I have a bit of revolutionary in my own personality... Now, the
possibility to be able to generate something positive with it...that's
really exciting.

There are three centers where the method of levels is being developed
as part of official clinical practices: Manchester University,
England (Warren Mansell there and the Spratts from Scotland),
University of Canberra, Australia (Tim and Margaret Carey), and
Cherry Hill, New Jersey (David Goldstein and colleagues at a state
facility for youthful offenders). To join up with any of those
efforts you'd have to get a degree in clinical psychology to get
licensed to practice, I would assume. They can tell you. IAACT is a
notch or two lower on the academic scale, being run by professionals
but not academics for the most part (there are some PhDs involved).
There isn't much difference in my mind between the full and semi
academics in terms of ability to apply the MOL and I think they're
all giving it a good try. Also, I see nothing against just doing it,
as long as you don't run afoul of state licensing regulations. It's
best to learn MOL with others who are also learning, so maybe you can
hook up with some PCTers who haven't yet started actual tryouts of
the approach. Give them an incentive to get off dead center. They can
lead you generously to a state of knowledge, while trying to get
there themselves.

Thanks for the info. I actually thought I had read that Carey was in
Scotland, so its good to know the centers and people involved. Licensing,
may or may not be an issue... will have to deal with what the state hands me
in respect to my application. If I can get that far, finishing up the PhD
would go on the agenda.

Maybe someone could come up with an idea for an internship.

My eyes and ears are wide open...

Judging from your time zone, David Goldstein is probably the nearest.
He's a workaholic, but may have time to offer some advice or
suggestions (though as an MOL practitioner he is supposed to put a
strict limit on that sort of thing).

I see that you cc'd some of the resources you mentioned...so I'll be patient
and see if one or more has time to reply. In the meantime, I'll finish your
Behavior book and read through Dag's ebook he just released while waiting on
my copy of Method of Levels to arrive.

Thanks very much,

L. Keith

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.08.0401 MDT)]

L. Keith Daniels (2008.04.08) --

I see that you cc'd some of the resources you mentioned...so I'll be patient
and see if one or more has time to reply.

I did that also in case you wanted to talk to them directly.

  In the meantime, I'll finish your
Behavior book and read through Dag's ebook he just released while waiting on
my copy of Method of Levels to arrive.

Good. Keep in touch.

Best,

Bill P.

Dear Bill Powers,

I have had the great fortune to have read some of the literature on PCT. I am also fascinated by this theory and how it can apply to so many areas. I have also been blessed by being accepted to run my project on PCT with Warren Mansell as my superviser. I will research participants whom have recovered from Alcoholism and apply the spiritual model of recovery to PCT framework.

I have experience in Alcoholism. I have recovered and embarked on a an amazing journey.I have only recently started to develope an understanding of PCT. I find the concept fascinating. It has opened new doors of thought and I am excited about applying this to my future research.

If you could recommend any books or papers. I would be imensly grateful to you.

Thankyou and Regards

susan <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET>:

···

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.07.1736 MDT)]

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Despite my
experience with Zen Buddhism and Eastern philosophies, in general, which
tend to elevate the illuminated masters, I'm not personally prone to guru
worship. However, I am indeed honored and privileged to have the founder of
Perceptual Control Theory corresponding with me... I am grateful for your
thoughts.

When you get to know me better you will find that I am also averse to
guru worship, whether as giver or taker.

I received some of your comments with a slight sense of humility and humor.
My start in life probably wasn't any rougher than most and it wasn't until
my mid to late twenties that my behavior escalated to the point where it was
out of control (slight pun intended). And thankfully, it's as behind me as
its ever going to get after being reborn into the free world over 15 years ago.

You don't have to worry about your past with me. I'm very much a
present-timer. The only thing that matters about the past (or the
future) is what you think about it now. What I think about your past
doesn't matter at all. Looking back on my own life I can find times
when I could have ended up going with either side of the Force. Let us
rejoice in our luck, grasshopper (mixing my star wars and kung fu
hopelessly together).

I think you might have miscontrued/constructed my initial post. I wasn't
seeking someone to help me make a living, I was seeking a local,
professional resource that I might study with, under, etc. and learn more
about the Method of Levels and PCT-based therapy.

Yes, I was a little suspicious. Not any more.

I'm also more inclined at this stage of life (closing in on my 50's) to make opportunities than to wait for them to open up. From some of the real-world applications that I've seen/read others using PCT for, it seems that there could be many such opportunities. (All of which involve staying walking around on the outside, unless I'm visiting a jail/prison to help someone the way so many others helped me decades ago and still today.

Joining up with a scientific revolution in progress, while only in your
forties, would be a heck of an adventure, and I envy you. You're more
likely to be put to work than educated, but there may be ways for you
to do it.

There are three centers where the method of levels is being developed
as part of official clinical practices: Manchester University, England
(Warren Mansell there and the Spratts from Scotland), University of
Canberra, Australia (Tim and Margaret Carey), and Cherry Hill, New
Jersey (David Goldstein and colleagues at a state facility for youthful
offenders). To join up with any of those efforts you'd have to get a
degree in clinical psychology to get licensed to practice, I would
assume. They can tell you. IAACT is a notch or two lower on the
academic scale, being run by professionals but not academics for the
most part (there are some PhDs involved). There isn't much difference
in my mind between the full and semi academics in terms of ability to
apply the MOL and I think they're all giving it a good try. Also, I see
nothing against just doing it, as long as you don't run afoul of state
licensing regulations. It's best to learn MOL with others who are also
learning, so maybe you can hook up with some PCTers who haven't yet
started actual tryouts of the approach. Give them an incentive to get
off dead center. They can lead you generously to a state of knowledge,
while trying to get there themselves.

Maybe someone could come up with an idea for an internship.

Judging from your time zone, David Goldstein is probably the nearest.
He's a workaholic, but may have time to offer some advice or
suggestions (though as an MOL practitioner he is supposed to put a
strict limit on that sort of thing).

Best regards,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.08.1037 MDT)]

Dear Bill Powers,

I have had the great fortune to have read some of the literature on
PCT. I am also fascinated by this theory and how it can apply to so
many areas. I have also been blessed by being accepted to run my
project on PCT with Warren Mansell as my superviser. I will research
participants whom have recovered from Alcoholism and apply the
spiritual model of recovery to PCT framework.

I have experience in Alcoholism. I have recovered and embarked on a an
amazing journey.

I, too, Susan, I too -- recovered, and embarked.

I have only recently started to develope an
understanding of PCT. I find the concept fascinating. It has opened
new doors of thought and I am excited about applying this to my future
research.

If you could recommend any books or papers. I would be imensly
grateful to you.

Tune into http://www.perceptualcontroltheory.org/

That will give you links to just about everything there is including some that aren't any more but haven't been weeded (my so-called web page, for example. One of these days ...). Pay special attention to Rick Marken's on-line demos, and Dag Forssell's monumental resource collections, both linked to the URL above.

Thankyou and Regards

susan

And best to you, and welcome aboard,

Bill P.

[from Jason Gosnell 4.09.08 15:43 CST]

Thanks Keith.

(I suspect someone will tell you at some point to do a little heading
thing above if they haven't already...looks like it's me maybe.)

Maybe it was Zen Mountain Monastery??? I love their web-site.

I have done some work in this area, sesshins, but never lived in a
monastery. I do MBSR with clients, ACT, and THE WORK. I have studied
Morita Therapy in my own way, but never have done the training. I have
done some of FOCUSING which we discussed once on here...also, there are
some Zen/mindfulness dialogues from the past in the archives I think. I
have learned a lot from PCT, it fits with everything I have tried.

I have not much time to engage the list serve anymore. I just read when
I can.

Happy learning/good luck!!

Kind Regards, Jason

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU] On Behalf Of L. Keith Daniels
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:43 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the question. I'm not quite sure if I should branch it off
this
particular discussion or answer it here, but since I don't know how to
create a new branch off a reply that effectively makes the decision for
me. :slight_smile:

I'm sure religion (along with politics) are subjects that Mr. Powers has
already discovered tends toward polarization of individuals and can
de-generate into flame wars. I'll try by best to ward that off, by
staying
within my personal experience.

I came to Zen practice after my incarceration. I had rejected a
fundamentalist background early in my life, but had not replaced it with
another religious or spiritual practice. Self-inquiry led me to the
belief
that part of my poor decision making could be tracked back to not having
some of these larger/beyond self core beliefs and practices to fall back
on.
I spent some time corresponding with several of what I perceived to be
more
inclusive religious organizations and found my own beliefs in line with
Buddhist philosophy. To make a quite long story, short (not short
enough, I
know)...I ended up requesting to be paroled to a Zen Buddhist Monastery
in
upstate New York and remained there as a resident-student for almost 2
years, including the last 9 months or in the "honored" position of Tenzo
or
head chef.

Anyway, if you're at all paying attention to trends in psychology, you
will
have no doubt noticed that "mindfulness" and "awareness" practices and
Buddhist-oriented psychotherapy is becoming quite popular and books
about
such, are easily found on Amazon and in book stores. Zen practice, for
me,
was all about insight and mindfulness, reducing attachments, etc. It
reminds me a lot of cognitive therapy in that it is our perceptions and
not
the actual events that cause our suffering. The practice helped me
realize
that.

The last 9 months at the monastery as cook/head chef also made me
realize
that this mindfulness could be found in activity, not just in sitting on
a
cushion, separated from the world...

There's always more to tell, but hopefully, that gives you a flavor of
what
it meant to me...

L. Keith

Keith...Were there any benefits to your Zen studies? Also, any pitfalls
you experienced? And, how did it related to your psychology work???

Kind Regards, Jason Gosnell

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU] On Behalf Of L. Keith Daniels
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:19 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches

Dear Mr. Powers,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Despite my
experience with Zen Buddhism and Eastern philosophies, in general,

which

tend to elevate the illuminated masters, I'm not personally prone to
guru
worship. However, I am indeed honored and privileged to have the

founder

of
Perceptual Control Theory corresponding with me... I am grateful for
your
thoughts.

I received some of your comments with a slight sense of humility and
humor.
My start in life probably wasn't any rougher than most and it wasn't
until
my mid to late twenties that my behavior escalated to the point where

it

was
out of control (slight pun intended). And thankfully, it's as behind me
as
its ever going to get after being reborn into the free world over 15
years ago.

Psychology always had an intellectual interest for me, but it wasn't
until I
had a lot of time on my hands (and toes and feet, etc) that I attempted
to
delve deeper into to discern the causes and reasons of my own dilemma.
Some
of those insights helped, some didn't. But all, in all... I've come to
the
firm belief that taking personal responsibility is a key factor in
healthy,
happy lives. Obtaining the advanced degree was something I pursued
after
coming to the realization that I had put myself in a deficit and would
need
something other than my charm and my incarceration on my resume to earn
a
decent living after prison.

Fortunately for me, things improved dramatically. While studying at

ITP,

I
began working for a .com company in the late 90's and rode a wonderful
wave
of startup, acquisition, ipo's, etc. that helped me make that living.
Added
to that having the immense good fortune to meet and marry a wonderful
MD/research scientist who has helped keep my feet on the ground and on
track
for the last 12 years.

I think you might have miscontrued/constructed my initial post. I

wasn't

seeking someone to help me make a living, I was seeking a local,
professional resource that I might study with, under, etc. and learn
more
about the Method of Levels and PCT-based therapy. I'm also more

inclined

at
this stage of life (closing in on my 50's) to make opportunities than

to

wait for them to open up. From some of the real-world applications that
I've
seen/read others using PCT for, it seems that there could be many such
opportunities. (All of which involve staying walking around on the
outside,
unless I'm visiting a jail/prison to help someone the way so many

others

helped me decades ago and still today.

I definitely have had and hopefully taken advantage of the 2nd chances
that
have been given me. Though I do have a distinct opinion on the theory
that
"freedom is just a state of mind." I'm also very aware (especially
since
the .com bust, that "dues to society" can never fully be re-paid as

long

as
that box on job applications asking if you've ever been convicted still
needs to be checked off. But, under the rubric of taking personal
responsibility, that's just something that has to be lived with.

Thanks again for your reply and for putting PCT into the world for
thought,
discussion, and practice... I look forward to putting much more effort
into
learning it and to looking for opportunities to eventually practice it.

Best regards,

L. Keith Daniels

[from Keith Daniels 4.10.08 16:21 PST]

Hi Jason,

from your email, it sounds as if you are a practicing therapist. If you
don't mind answering, how long have and where do you practice? Are you a
psychologist, MFT, LPC, LCSW or some other three or four-letter acronym? :slight_smile:

[from Jason Gosnell 4.09.08 15:43 CST]

(I suspect someone will tell you at some point to do a little heading
thing above if they haven't already...looks like it's me maybe.)

No one's yet mentioned the "header" protocol, so you are the first. It looks
to me like the software puts in the standard header...so I assume you're
referring to the [from ...] that follows it.. From both a personal
perspective and as a former professional online community designer, I don't
really like this particular style.... but I do realize that I've walked into
a long-standing community with its own habits and preferences... So, I'll
do my best to make my posts more readable by the group, if that helps.
Personally, it's pretty easy for me to tell who a post comes from given the
by-lines and automatic headers posted... Occasionally, it is hard to tell
exactly who or what particular post is being responded to.

Maybe it was Zen Mountain Monastery??? I love their web-site.

No, though I have visited ZMM. I was a resident at fairly nearby Dai Bosatsu
Zendo (http://www.daibosatsu.org)

I have done some work in this area, sesshins, but never lived in a
monastery. I do MBSR with clients, ACT, and THE WORK. I have studied
Morita Therapy in my own way, but never have done the training. I have
done some of FOCUSING which we discussed once on here...also, there are
some Zen/mindfulness dialogues from the past in the archives I think. I
have learned a lot from PCT, it fits with everything I have tried.

Given your interests and the work you do, it sounds like we have somewhat
similar proclivities and tastes. Morita Therapy and Naikan Therapy became
familiar to me through David Reynold's "Constructive Living." Took a
"Focusing" workshop/seminar while at ITP. Seriously considering doing some
training at UCLA's mindfulness program if I am able to be licensed. (ACT is
newer (post ITP days) and I"m only just now becoming familiar with it. But
PCT does seem to fit right into the mix very well.

Happy learning/good luck!!

Thanks.

L. Keith

[From Jason Gosnell 4.10.08 20:24 CST]

Keith:

I am an LMHC (LPC in other states). I practice in Ft. Walton Beach, FL.
And, have been for maybe 11-12 years total to include
internships/practicums.

I think I have the header issue right. The seniors can correct me. I
just wonder, is it Standard time? Maybe I am wrong and we're on Daylight
now. I forget which is which. I am also a part to full-time flake
so...there's that. Anyway...the little < must be automatic, but I have
never considered it.

I do the CL stuff and have for a few years--no formal training. I do
that a lot with sexual offenses. I have an offender program and have had
one for maybe 8-9 years. I love it, but it is hard to tell if I am
helping. I love to do Naikan in there. For other PCTers...this is the
Japanese "therapy" that consists of contemplating three questions: What
have I received from others? What have I given/returned? And, What
troubles have I caused others? You can apply the questions to any target
as well...mom, dad, work, USA, GOD/emptiness, etc. Whatever you can
conceptualize or percept...any form. It tends to produce an awareness of
interdependence, a sense of connectedness, increased well-being,
gratitude, and a better/fuller sense of reality when compared to the
self-centered tendency we have. Also, it makes our own perceived wrongs
from others more tolerable as it broadens the perspective of life and
"others" quite a bit. It's good. Maybe I need another dose.

I learned this stuff from David Hubbard, my mentor for ACT/CL mainly.
Check archives for his attempt at Zen/mindfulness/PCT. He tried. Another
Zen student I guess one could say. I prefer Zen to classic Buddhism, but
lately I am interested in the old teachings too.

I also see ADHD/oppsotional kids (and their family of course) and I am
thinking about how to apply mindfulness to ADHD. Maybe someone at UCLA
is doing that??? It seems as if there is.

I suggest one more thing...I am only learning it gradually. I hope that
it will work in ADHD, etc. No formal work yet...The Eyebody method. Do
you know about it? It's on the web. Maybe www.eyebody.com???

I got hooked on the ideas when I noticed my vision became
three-dimensional after a mindfulness retreat with Kabat-Zinn. I could
find no references to this strange shift...even in Zen. Nothing. Except,
the Zen art guy, Franck...he said he found that out by using a
stereoscope. Same thing. All of a sudden it happened. Then, I realized,
I have seen only in two dimensions most of my life! Meaning...a very
flat visual surface, so space-depth. I kept yapping about it--everyone
thought I was insane. Weird. For weeks I could hear from inside my body
and see things in-depth. Mostly I can still, but I lose it during work
week stress to some extent. I am still stress-fragile socially at times
and get lost in mind stuff. So, it needs to deepen or expand I feel...I
don't know for sure about how to work with that. I just keep going with
it. I love it. This is why I tell people about presence/mindfulness.
There is something going on there. My life is still quite messy of
course, so it wasn't a cure in itself.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your ideas and see what you discover here.
You're lucky because PCT is now being applied more clinically it seems.
So, right time, right place in some sense. It is, so far, the ultimate
description of "re-organization." ACT is almost the clinical application
of PCT.

Finally, no one mentions that Dick did a nice book on PCT for clinical
stuff. I like to mention it because it got lost somehow. I ate it up in
about 2 days.

Regards, Jason Gosnell

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU] On Behalf Of L. Keith Daniels
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:33 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: MOL PCT Therapists/Counselors/Life Coaches

[from Keith Daniels 4.10.08 16:21 PST]

Hi Jason,

from your email, it sounds as if you are a practicing therapist. If you
don't mind answering, how long have and where do you practice? Are you a
psychologist, MFT, LPC, LCSW or some other three or four-letter acronym?
:slight_smile:

[from Jason Gosnell 4.09.08 15:43 CST]

(I suspect someone will tell you at some point to do a little heading
thing above if they haven't already...looks like it's me maybe.)

No one's yet mentioned the "header" protocol, so you are the first. It
looks
to me like the software puts in the standard header...so I assume you're
referring to the [from ...] that follows it.. From both a personal
perspective and as a former professional online community designer, I
don't
really like this particular style.... but I do realize that I've walked
into
a long-standing community with its own habits and preferences... So,
I'll
do my best to make my posts more readable by the group, if that helps.
Personally, it's pretty easy for me to tell who a post comes from given
the
by-lines and automatic headers posted... Occasionally, it is hard to
tell
exactly who or what particular post is being responded to.

Maybe it was Zen Mountain Monastery??? I love their web-site.

No, though I have visited ZMM. I was a resident at fairly nearby Dai
Bosatsu
Zendo (http://www.daibosatsu.org)

I have done some work in this area, sesshins, but never lived in a
monastery. I do MBSR with clients, ACT, and THE WORK. I have studied
Morita Therapy in my own way, but never have done the training. I have
done some of FOCUSING which we discussed once on here...also, there are
some Zen/mindfulness dialogues from the past in the archives I think. I
have learned a lot from PCT, it fits with everything I have tried.

Given your interests and the work you do, it sounds like we have
somewhat
similar proclivities and tastes. Morita Therapy and Naikan Therapy
became
familiar to me through David Reynold's "Constructive Living." Took a
"Focusing" workshop/seminar while at ITP. Seriously considering doing
some
training at UCLA's mindfulness program if I am able to be licensed. (ACT
is
newer (post ITP days) and I"m only just now becoming familiar with it.
But
PCT does seem to fit right into the mix very well.

Happy learning/good luck!!

Thanks.

L. Keith

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.10.1935 MDT)]

Keith Daniels 4.10.08 16:21 PST --

No one's yet mentioned the "header" protocol, so you are the first. It looks
to me like the software puts in the standard header...so I assume you're
referring to the [from ...] that follows it.. From both a personal
perspective and as a former professional online community designer, I don't
really like this particular style

It's just a way of stuffing two bushes with one bird. First, it tells youi who is writing the post, so you don't have to search through the header or hope there's a signature at the bottom. Not all posts are self-evidently from a recognizeable person.

Second, it provides a date-time reference and a name that automatically appears when you do a Reply, so all you have to do is delete a few letters at the beginning and end, and you have a ready-made identifier for the post you're replying to. We have occasional problems with mis-attributions of posts, and this just about eliminates them.

If you identify yourself as the sender with a date-time line that can easily be edited to become a reference to a cited post, it doesn't really matter how you do that.

And the software that puts all this in the post is between your ears.

Oh, yeah, we use the YYYYMMDD.TTTT format for sorting and searching purposes. The [From distinguishes our header from the From field in the mailer's header when you want to search your files for CSGnet posts. The "From" helps remind people who wrote the post.

Another local custom is NOT to let long chains of replies build up at the bottoms of posts. The idea is to delete everything in a reply except the specific sentences to which you're replying or on which you're commenting. This cuts down on storage space considerably, especially for a post with 30 lines of header above it and 300 lines of quoted posts below it.

Fairly often people will reply as if the only possible recipient is the person to whose post they are replying (ignoring the other 90+ people who see it):

···

================================================
Yeah, I know what you mean

No salutation, no signature, no indication of what is being commented on.

The overall idea is to make it easy for the reader to know who wrote the post, and to cite other people's posts correctly when replying.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Keith Daniels 4.12.08 00:24 CDT]

?Should the header time be in CT or in our own local zone?

[From Jason Gosnell 4.10.08 20:24 CST]

I am an LMHC (LPC in other states). I practice in Ft. Walton Beach, FL.
And, have been for maybe 11-12 years total to include
internships/practicums.

In California, that level is probably the equivalent of LMFT and I think its
the only state that doesn't have an LPC equivalent. But LPC will be
licensed here shortly, I think. MFT's probably will be able to choose to be
grandfathered in if they wish. (Just my take on the status of the current CA
law)

I do the CL stuff and have for a few years--no formal training. I do
that a lot with sexual offenses. I have an offender program and have had
one for maybe 8-9 years. I love it, but it is hard to tell if I am
helping.

As an ex-offender myself, I can tell you that this is a population that
truly needs help, though its my experience that the vast majority of
offenders aren't ready to help themselves yet. I did my practicum at a
residential half-way house in San Francisco for dual diagnosis (Addiction +
) probationers and parolees (many of whom were court-ordered into
treatment). There were more than a few that would rather live under a
bridge than be in any kind of shelter. And the recidivism rate is almost
ridiculous. Still, if any group ever needed help...this is one of them.
While I'd prefer to be dealing with growth-oriented, "actualizing" clients,
I would love to give back to this group as well.

love to do Naikan in there. For other PCTers...this is the
Japanese "therapy" that consists of contemplating three questions: What
have I received from others? What have I given/returned? And, What
troubles have I caused others?

For some reason, Reynold's CL has always appealed to me. But I haven't used
it on anyone but myself.

I learned this stuff from David Hubbard, my mentor for ACT/CL mainly.
Check archives for his attempt at Zen/mindfulness/PCT. He tried. Another
Zen student I guess one could say. I prefer Zen to classic Buddhism, but
lately I am interested in the old teachings too.

I'll do a search of the archive for threads by DH. Thanks. I'm more at home
with Zen/Mahayana than Theravadan (sorry if I digress to far off the PCT
topic here). A funny storyline in my life is that when I met my wife, who is
from Thailand (a Buddhist country), I was a practicing Buddhist and she was
a Presbyterian. :slight_smile: I'm doing most of my Buddhist study now on a Chinese
Ch'an school called Hua Yen. And semi-related am more of a non-dualist
which reminds me (there are a couple of books out on Non-Dual Thought and
Psychotherapy which you might find interesting. "The Sacred Mirror" is the
title of one of them. Good reading.

I also see ADHD/oppsotional kids (and their family of course) and I am
thinking about how to apply mindfulness to ADHD. Maybe someone at UCLA
is doing that??? It seems as if there is.

There's a lot of research on mindfulness going on at UCLA and in the LA area
in general. If you get out this way to take a seminar, let me know.

I suggest one more thing...I am only learning it gradually. I hope that
it will work in ADHD, etc. No formal work yet...The Eyebody method. Do
you know about it? It's on the web. Maybe www.eyebody.com???

Have never heard of the EyeBody method, but it sounds semi-related to
Shapiro's EMDR. The last therapist I went to also tried something new I had
never heard of called BrainSpotting which is probably along the same lines.

find no references to this strange shift...even in Zen. Nothing. Except,
the Zen art guy, Franck...he said he found that out by using a
stereoscope.

Man, that's a name from the past. Actually met this guy at some event in New
York when I was living up there. Very interesting character.

My life is still quite messy of course, so it wasn't a cure in itself.

Whose isn't? :slight_smile:

Anyway, I'd love to hear your ideas and see what you discover here.
You're lucky because PCT is now being applied more clinically it seems.
So, right time, right place in some sense. It is, so far, the ultimate
description of "re-organization." ACT is almost the clinical application
of PCT.

I'm a baby with PCT right now, so I have a lot of learning (maybe I should
say unlearning) to do.

Finally, no one mentions that Dick did a nice book on PCT for clinical
stuff. I like to mention it because it got lost somehow. I ate it up in
about 2 days.

More about this? Which book?

Thanks,

Keith

[From Bill Powers (2008i.04.12.0252 MDT)]

Keith Daniels 4.12.08 00:24 CDT--

?Should the header time be in CT or in our own local zone?

Notice the above: MDT, CDT. Local time. We can figure it out from there, but usually it's just the unique number that matters. People used to write "In Yrs. of the 21st Inst. you said..."

Therapy:
All these references to different nuances, flavors, and techniques of therapy ought to be making you wonder. When you read Tim Carey's book you'll see his slant on this. What is it that helps people get better? Is is possible that each person who gets better just happened to pick a practitioner who does the exact things that will help just a person with that exact problem? Or could it be that what helps a person is always the same, and that in each successful case, each practitioner accidentally or on purpose includes that ingredient? And is it possible that all the other things the practitioner does that are unique to that approach are irrelevant, or even a wee bit counterproductive?

In PCT, what causes change in a person is reorganization. Reorganization is driven in proportion to intrinsic error, and intrinsic error is a deep sense of wrongness stemming from basic malfunctions in the organism. In other words, what causes change in a person is internal, and no outside agency can do it for the person.

The only handle a "guide" has on the "explorer" (well, we need some way to tell them apart) is that the guide can listen to the explorer and direct attention to topics the explorer brings up in passing, with a bias toward higher-level topics. When I call attention to your nose, suddenly your nose is there in the conscious field. We can assume it was there all the time, but awareness is mobile and not all-encompassing, so there are always perceptual signals that exist but are not in awareness.

This is the key tool of the method of levels. The explorer is encouraged to describe what is currently in the foreground of attention, and the guide listens for disruptions, comments that are outside the flow of the description and are about the description rather than part of it. For example, the explorer pauses and asks, "Did I make that clear?" This indicates another point of view, a concern for the clarity of the description, and is not part of the description. We can assume that this concern was not invented on the spot; it was already present and was determining how the person communicates. It is involved with the control of a higher-level perception, a perception of clarity -- and it implies a reference level or purpose: a high degree of clarity rather than a low one.

That's basically all there is to it. The guide is there to help spot the up-a-level comments (or expressions or body language -- anything) and ask about them before awareness moves on to something else. If the explorer is having problems, we can assume that reorganization is going on. But a basic hypothesis of the method of levels is that the main focus of reorganization is the place where awareness is focused. So when awareness moves from one viewpoint to another, so does the main effect of this reorganizing process. The guide tries to keep attracting the focus of awareness to higher levels, as indicated by background comments or other communications. This is rarely done prescriptively and never analytically. Ideally, it's always done by selecting some aspect of what the explorer says or does, so the guide is following rather than leading. The idea is to call attention to what is actually there, and not put thoughts into the explorer's head. That's why we use the term "explorer." The explorer is the only one who can see what is actually going on in there.

If there are no hitches in this process, it will result in a sort of random walk up the levels to an interesting state of mind which we term the "observer self." It's been called a lot of names through history. It's a state of serenity, of pure awareness, of awareness without involvement in thought. I'm sure the idea is familiar to you, Gavin and Keith, as well as others in CSGnet.

There are almost always hitches. The one most often encountered is internal conflict. You find not one higher-level thought, but two (or more) and they are mutually contradictory. In fact, this is where we find most people when they come in for help: they are stuck in a conflict, or a whole network of conflicts, and are reorganizing like mad but at the wrong level. Now the job of the guide is to bring the conflict itself into the foreground. And this brings up another basic hypothesis of the MOL.

Awareness, the hypothesis says, is always centered somewhere in the brain's hierarchy of control system, receiving perceptions from below but remaining unaware (for the time being) of all the control systems which are working at higher levels. You are aware of what is good and bad about what you're aware of, but you're not, at the moment, aware of why they're good or bad -- what they're good or bad FOR. All you know is that Daddy's hitting Mommy is bad. Why it's bad may take you another 20 years to work out.

In MOL, the way it's worked out is to keep trying to bring all sides of the conflict into the foreground AT THE SAME TIME. This side, then that side, then back to this side, then some more of that side. After a while, the explorer will let you know that both sides are now in view, and a few simple questions (such as "what are you thinking about these sides now?" will verify this. Or the explorer will spontaneously comment that it's like being up above or backed off from the conflict, perhaps thinking "Well, I sure can't do both of those things at the same time." This shows that awareness has moved to a higher level viewpoint, involved in some superordinate system, and if reorganization is going on is is likely to resolve the conflict then and there. That is usually what happens: the conflict simply dissolves. It doesn't take long, and is sometimes quite sudden.

Then the upward movement continues -- or the session ends.

I think that if you look at various forms of therapy, you will find in them interactions between therapist and client that very often accomplish the same things I have described above. Bringing background thoughts to the foreground. Examining them for a while; then noticing a new batch of background thoughts and repeating the process. Or exploring conflicts: I want this, but if I get it then I can't have that, which I also intensely want. Backing off from a point of view in order to look at it -- and thus moving to a new point of view from which to look. Any therapy, any technique, any philosopy, any meditation that accomplishes these ends will move the focus of reorganization from wrong or useless places to places that will actually improve matters. And any therapy, or therapy session, in which these things don't happen will fail to help.

What the MOL does is simply leave out everything that doesn't help, and focus on the one thing that does put reorganization to work where it will do more good: going up a level. One of David Goldstein's clients who was an old hand at psychotherapy said, after a few sessions with MOL, "This is fast-track therapy, isn't it?" It certainly is. Tim Carey's group of associates, in the National Health in Scotland, was the only group in the clinic that had no waiting list, though they had as many referrals as any other group.

So while you folks are bandying about all the latest fashions in Zen and Shrinkdom, consider this: maybe they're all doing the same things that work, and a lot of different things that don't have any effect, or maybe work the wrong way. If you can figure out what the parts are that work, then you don't need the rest, do you? Except socially, I mean.

If you want to try an MOL exercise, try this. Get an interested friend to monitor, and start seeing how many times in a row you can catch a background thought and bring it into the foreground. You have to talk out loud while doing this; the friend is there to say, occasionally, "Did you hear what you just said?" and things like that. Do you go in circles? Is this infinite regress? Do you reach an endpoint? Do you hit a conflict that stops it?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Keith Daniels (2008.04.19.2311 PDT)]

[From Bill Powers (2008i.04.12.0252 MDT)]

Notice the above: MDT, CDT. Local time. We can figure it out

Thanks for the clarification.

All these references to different nuances, flavors, and techniques of
therapy ought to be making you wonder. When you read Tim Carey's book
you'll see his slant on this. What is it that helps people get
better?

Actually, it doesn't really make me wonder at all. Despite my "perception"
that there is a determination to use PCT to describe/explain all behavior, I
am personally not fully signed on yet and believe that humans are too
complex organisms to believe that any one explanation is the absolute
be-all, end-all. I feel the same way about religion/s as well.

I have to admit that I've just read a few chapters in Method of Levels, but
I can't say that the first case example of the guy who couldn't decide
whether to let his girlfriend stay in his house for a year or move her to an
apartment was earth-shattering. Primarily because it was what I'd consider
a menial or trivial problem. I'm hoping I'll come across case histories of
tougher clients/issues further in the book, before rendering any further
judgment.

Where I do agree with you is that I don't believe it is the particular
nuance, practitioner, or style of therapy that is responsible for a client
improving (how to measure improvement is another matter). But I do think
some are more likely to help than others and perhaps MOL is of that sort.
it is the ability to view the problem from a different perspective/level
that produces that insight. It seems to me that whether you use those words
or not, that is what MOL is doing also.

is it possible that all the other things the practitioner does that
are unique to that approach are irrelevant, or even a wee bit
counterproductive?

Yes. Not only possible, but likely.

In PCT, what causes change in a person is reorganization.
Reorganization is driven in proportion to intrinsic error, and
intrinsic error is a deep sense of wrongness stemming from basic
malfunctions in the organism.

This sounds like good theory, but I don't yet have a clue whether it's true
or not.

In other words, what causes change in a
person is internal, and no outside agency can do it for the person.

This I agree with 100% Except to add, that I believe it is possible that
external inputs (possibly including metaphysical inputs, God, etc) can
stimulate internal change. Whitehead's Process Philosophy/Theology of a god
that nudges humans but gives them free will to make their choice is an
example of that sort of consideration. Of course, I realize that PCT is a
science-based theory, so something so ephemeral as that might not be up the
PCT alley.

If there are no hitches in this process, it will result in a sort of
random walk up the levels to an interesting state of mind which we
term the "observer self." It's been called a lot of names through
history. It's a state of serenity, of pure awareness, of awareness
without involvement in thought. I'm sure the idea is familiar to you,
Gavin and Keith, as well as others in CSGnet.

I actually think there may be a step beyond the Observer Self into a
non-dual "pure awareness"... but I'm with you on this.

There are almost always hitches. The one most often encountered is
internal conflict. You find not one higher-level thought, but two (or
more) and they are mutually contradictory. In fact, this is where we
find most people when they come in for help: they are stuck in a
conflict, or a whole network of conflicts, and are reorganizing like
mad but at the wrong level.

I know that you believe other therapies might accidentally be helpful, but I
think this hitch pretty much describes the exact method or purpose in at
least one therapy that I'm aware of, Depth-Oriented Brief Psychotherapy or
Coherence Therapy. As I said early on, I'm somewhat guru aversive and I
should add "Truth" aversive as well. When someone tells me or implies that
their beliefs are the one and only Truth, I tend to be rather doubtful and
somewhat dismissive. I know I'm treading on thin water hear, but I am not
so much a believer of faith as a believer in action. Which is why Buddha's
"be the light unto yourself (prove it to your own satisfaction) statement
had me wanting to know more. With PCT, I understand I can test and prove
and maybe I'll come to a "truth" conclusion of my own with it.

I think that if you look at various forms of therapy, you will find
in them interactions between therapist and client that very often
accomplish the same things I have described above. Bringing
background thoughts to the foreground. Examining them for a while;
then noticing a new batch of background thoughts and repeating the
process. Or exploring conflicts: I want this, but if I get it then I
can't have that, which I also intensely want.

Yes, which may render some of my earlier comments either inappropriate or moot.

So while you folks are bandying about all the latest fashions in Zen
and Shrinkdom, consider this: maybe they're all doing the same things
that work, and a lot of different things that don't have any effect,
or maybe work the wrong way. If you can figure out what the parts are
that work, then you don't need the rest, do you? Except socially, I mean.

It took me a while to respond to this because I perceived it as fairly
dismissive comments and I wanted to respond after careful/calm
consideration, not in haste. I still need to say that I find a lot I like
about what I've learned of PCT and MOL so far and will continue to explore.

Thanks again and best regards,

Keith

···

from my experience, insight is frequently the key component to change. And