MOL

CSGnet Archive CSG2005
41

[From Bill Powers (2011.06.16.1126 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2011.06.16.0920) –

BP: Anyhow, the therapist will
be IN if any side-effects are encountered. My statement is in the
mail.

RM: I’ll look for it but I
probably won’t pay it since a side effect of the reorganization seems to
be a complete lack of anxiety about not paying my MOL
bills;-)

Oh darn. I really hate it when I have to call in the enforcers. They’re
good, but they’re so expensive. Anyhow, how’s that old anxiety
doing there?

Best,

Bill P.

42

From Bill Powers (2008.08.04.1748 MDT)]

Several people sent statements which I think were meant as additions to my list of 25.

Susan McCormack:

I was able to get a better perspective on some of the difficulties I
have been facing and as a result my perceptions and belief in my
ability to do something about them changed!

That's something a client might say after a successful session -- but it wouldn't separate any therapy from another, would it? The point of my 25 statements is that I thought they would fit some therapies but not MOL, or MOL but not some other therapies. For example, "I was told the real meanings of my thoughts and feelings" might fit with a classical psychoanalysis, but definitely not with MOL. "In the session, I was told or shown that my unpleasant thoughts are incorrect" might suggest Cognitive Behavior Therapy, but would be very unlike MOL. "The therapist seemed to have more insights into my problems than I did" would indicate a therapist who does a lot of interpreting in terms of hidden motivations or meanings ("psychologizing"), which would not be expected in MOL. And so on. I tried to make each statement so it might be rated as "like" the experience of some therapy I knew about but not like the experience of other therapies, especially MOL. It would have been better, of course, if I knew more about other therapies. Also, it would have been a better list if I had included more statements that would be accepted as like the experience of MOL but definitely unlike other therapies.

Shelley Brierley:

I don't know how it happened, however, I left the session, clearly seeing
what I needed to do and feeling better about the situation.

I left knowing I finally found someone who understood me better than I
understood myself.

The first one is like Susan's: it might be appropriate as a description of the experience of any successful therapy session (though in MOL sessions, the client usually can see very clearly how it happened). The second, however (perhaps it was intended this way) would describe a therapy in which the therapist is an "expert" who claims to understand people better than they understand themselves. This would go with my statement "001: I found that my own ideas were inferior to the therapist's ideas about my problems," or maybe "008: The therapist seemed to have more insights into my problems than I did." I think MOL practitioners would rate Shelley's second statement and my number 1 and number 8 as highly unlike the experience of MOL. Clients in MOL sessions have commented that they liked the fact that they were able to think for themselves about their problems and find their own solutions. And MOL therapists avoid having insights for their clients (or at least telling the clients about them, because they're usually inaccurate).

If I misstate anything, all you MOL experts out there, feel free to set me straight.

Best,

Bill P.

43

You are correct in your assumption of what I intended Bill, as I meant for
the second to describe a therapy in which the therapist is an "expert" who
claims to understand people better than they understand themselves.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:35 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: MOL

From Bill Powers (2008.08.04.1748 MDT)]

Several people sent statements which I think were meant as additions
to my list of 25.

Susan McCormack:

I was able to get a better perspective on some of the difficulties I
have been facing and as a result my perceptions and belief in my
ability to do something about them changed!

That's something a client might say after a successful session -- but
it wouldn't separate any therapy from another, would it? The point of
my 25 statements is that I thought they would fit some therapies but
not MOL, or MOL but not some other therapies. For example, "I was
told the real meanings of my thoughts and feelings" might fit with a
classical psychoanalysis, but definitely not with MOL. "In the
session, I was told or shown that my unpleasant thoughts are
incorrect" might suggest Cognitive Behavior Therapy, but would be
very unlike MOL. "The therapist seemed to have more insights into my
problems than I did" would indicate a therapist who does a lot of
interpreting in terms of hidden motivations or meanings
("psychologizing"), which would not be expected in MOL. And so on. I
tried to make each statement so it might be rated as "like" the
experience of some therapy I knew about but not like the experience
of other therapies, especially MOL. It would have been better, of
course, if I knew more about other therapies. Also, it would have
been a better list if I had included more statements that would be
accepted as like the experience of MOL but definitely unlike other
therapies.

Shelley Brierley:

I don't know how it happened, however, I left the session, clearly seeing
what I needed to do and feeling better about the situation.

I left knowing I finally found someone who understood me better than I
understood myself.

The first one is like Susan's: it might be appropriate as a
description of the experience of any successful therapy session
(though in MOL sessions, the client usually can see very clearly how
it happened). The second, however (perhaps it was intended this way)
would describe a therapy in which the therapist is an "expert" who
claims to understand people better than they understand themselves.
This would go with my statement "001: I found that my own ideas were
inferior to the therapist's ideas about my problems," or maybe "008:
The therapist seemed to have more insights into my problems than I
did." I think MOL practitioners would rate Shelley's second statement
and my number 1 and number 8 as highly unlike the experience of MOL.
Clients in MOL sessions have commented that they liked the fact that
they were able to think for themselves about their problems and find
their own solutions. And MOL therapists avoid having insights for
their clients (or at least telling the clients about them, because
they're usually inaccurate).

If I misstate anything, all you MOL experts out there, feel free to
set me straight.

Best,

Bill P.

44

[From Tim Carey (980819.0600)]

Hi Bill,

As there seemed to be some talk about making the private lists public on
CSG I'll post to this site.

I had my second session last night with the woman I spoke to you about last
week. She has significant problems with her anger. She can remember being
angry since she was two and has been in many relationships where she was
physically abused.

Last week she told me that her life sucked and when she came in this week
she had a number of issues going on that she was working herself up about.

Again in this session she told me that she thought she was pitiful and
again (this is starting to become disturbingly repetitive) I was at a loss
for words. I realise now I should have just asked her about "pitiful". She
also told me that what she was doing was childish and that adults shouldn't
have these kinds of problems. She said that she wanted to have the picture
that other ladies her age had but when I talked to her about her picture
she said it was all in pieces ... she actually mentioned a jig-saw puzzle.

One interesting feature was when she came to the conclusion that her life
was pitiful she said "OK, I know that now. So how do I change??" Here I was
at a real loss for what to do in terms of MOLing. I know that at this point
the problem had more to do with me than the therapy interaction because I
felt really pressured to come up with some nifty answer.

Again, the session had some good points to it, but generally I felt like I
was trying to "make" it happen rather than being in the experience.

Sometime I'm just a bit thick.

Regards,

Tim

45

[From Bill Powers (980818.1850 MDT)]

Tim Carey (980819.0600)--

I had my second session last night with the woman I spoke to you about last
week. She has significant problems with her anger. She can remember being
angry since she was two and has been in many relationships where she was
physically abused.

Last week she told me that her life sucked and when she came in this week
she had a number of issues going on that she was working herself up about.

Again in this session she told me that she thought she was pitiful and
again (this is starting to become disturbingly repetitive) I was at a loss
for words. I realise now I should have just asked her about "pitiful".

I agree.

She
also told me that what she was doing was childish and that adults shouldn't
have these kinds of problems. She said that she wanted to have the picture
that other ladies her age had but when I talked to her about her picture
she said it was all in pieces ... she actually mentioned a jig-saw puzzle.

Tell me more about being childish, about being an adult, child, adult,
child ...

One interesting feature was when she came to the conclusion that her life
was pitiful she said "OK, I know that now. So how do I change??" Here I was
at a real loss for what to do in terms of MOLing.

"Are you asking me how you can change?"
"Right, how do I change?"
"You're really waiting for me to tell you how""
"......."
"So tell me how you're feeling as you wait for me to tell you. Are you
calm? Anxious? Curious? What's happening in there? What thoughts are there?"

I know that at this point
the problem had more to do with me than the therapy interaction because I
felt really pressured to come up with some nifty answer.

The nifty answer, I think, is always the MOST obvious answer -- which is
very easy to overlook. You need to pause and say, "Oh, I'm worried about
finding a nifty answer." Then you can put that aside.

Sometime I'm just a bit thick.

Nah. You just have to remember to go up a level, too. Does it bother you to
think you're thick?

Best,

Bill P.

46

[From Tim Carey (980819.0600)]

Hi Bill,

As there seemed to be some talk about making the private lists public on
CSG I'll post to this site.

Thanks very much, Tim - and thanks, Bill, for the reply.

47

Hi Bill,

Whoops I forgot we were on CSG

[From Tim Carey (980819.1310)]

Tell me more about being childish, about being an adult, child, adult,
child ...

Great, thanks.

>One interesting feature was when she came to the conclusion that her

life

>was pitiful she said "OK, I know that now. So how do I change??" Here I

was

>at a real loss for what to do in terms of MOLing.

"Are you asking me how you can change?"
"Right, how do I change?"
"You're really waiting for me to tell you how""
"......."
"So tell me how you're feeling as you wait for me to tell you. Are you
calm? Anxious? Curious? What's happening in there? What thoughts are

there?"

This is wonderful, thanks again!!

>Sometime I'm just a bit thick.

Nah. You just have to remember to go up a level, too. Does it bother you

to

think you're thick?

It doesn't bother me as long as I know I've got you to send emails to :wink:
Actually, its bothering me less and less and for the sessions I really get
into, it doesn't bother me at all. Thanks for asking by the way :wink:

I just had another session with the 15 year old we'd talked about who's
really angry. I'm finding the going up a level really tough with him
although we seem to be covering some ground. If I ask him what he thinks
about something or what thoughts are going through his head, he just stares
at me blankly and says nothing. I need to think up another way of
approaching this.

MOL did come in handy with him though when he was explaining to me that he
liked to do Line Dancing. I thought this was a bit unusual and even more so
when he said he did it with a Kung Fu club and he had to do Kung Fu in
order to Line Dancing. So I just played dumb (it wasn't really playing) and
asked him heaps of questions about it. I eventually realised that what he
was talking about was LION Dancing NOT, LINE Dancing. It's a Chinese dance
where two people put on a lion suit and dance around the crowd. I couldn't
believe it.

After this little miscommunication we did have quite an interesting
conversation. He told me that sometimes when he is dancing he gets kicked
or sworn at by people in the crowd and he says it doesn't bother him, he
just accepts that that's what some people do. I asked him what school would
be like if he had the same attitude at school (he currently thumps anyone
who looks sideways at him at school). He got this weird look and said
"Could I treat school like Lion Dancing?" as though this had never occurred
to him. We then had a bit of a chat about what that might be like.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Tim

48

[From Tim Carey (980819.2250)]

Hi Bill,

The chap I saw tonight is a young man who has had various labels piled on
him at different times (OCD - obsessive compulsive disorder, Asperges,
Schizoid traits, etc., etc.). He is 20 but has currently returned to school
to complete what he did not finish when he was there as a student. As a 14
year old he refused to go to school and there seemed to be quite a deal of
anxiety associated with this and subsequent decisions.

A therapist had been seeing him before me and had been treating him for OCD
with not much luck. In the first session he had with me he spoke about
wanting to do lots of things like get an education, exercise, get a part
time job, etc., but he finds he procrastinates a lot.

During this session I spent some time talking to him about how he went
about making decisions and just generally asking him lots of questions
about that. I eventually drew a bit of a graph on the whiteboard to try
and map out what he found easy to decide on and what he found difficult. He
really liked this and said that he had never thought about his decision
making like this before.

An interesting feature of my interview with this man was the extent to
which he spoke in dualities. He says that he wants to study philosophy at
university and that he likes to consider everything before deciding. He
would frequently present both sides of a perspective when he was talking.
Things like: the world could be a better place ... but it probably never
will; damn this seems to make so much sense ... but tomorrow it will
probably all be just the same.

On quite a few occasions it seemed like he'd made a shift, only for him to
pause a couple of seconds and then give the other perspective e.g., Things
aren't just going to happen, I've got to get out there and make them happen
.. but then maybe I shouldn't rock the boat.

During the week I had wondered whether "thinking/deciding/procrastinating"
might have become his way of reducing anxiety. He may have learned to avoid
situations where he felt anxious by saying that he was just "thinking". In
other words, thinking could be his way of controlling level of anxiety. To
investigate this I got together 18 little scenarios that he was required to
only answer yes or no to. The scenarios were things like: Your friend has
bad breath, do you tell him? You don't get charged for the drinks at a
restaurant, do you correct the error?

When I read out the first 9 cards, he found it really difficult to answer
with out giving an explanation.In fact he gave an explanation on every one
of the first 9 despite my instructions. He would say things like: I'd say
yes ... of course that's in an ideal world, in the actual world I'd say
.... To make it a bit more pressurised I told him he only had 5 seconds to
answer. For the next 9 I read a bit faster and he actually just answered
yes or no, but then at the end he spent some time explaining his decisions.
I don't know how much this tells me but it was an interesting activity.

What are your thoughts?

Regards

Tim

49

[From Bill Powers (980819.0658 MDT)]

Tim Carey (980819.1310)--

I just had another session with the 15 year old we'd talked about who's
really angry. I'm finding the going up a level really tough with him
although we seem to be covering some ground. If I ask him what he thinks
about something or what thoughts are going through his head, he just stares
at me blankly and says nothing. I need to think up another way of
approaching this.

Are you waiting for him to make a background-type comment, or are you
trying to push him up a level? The general question, "What are you
thinking?", may have the general answer, "None of your business." I think
it's important to follow, not lead, and just wait for the opportunity.

Is this kid seeing you voluntarily?

Best,

Bill P.

50

[From Kenny Kitzke (980819.0600)]

<Lloyd Klinedinst (980819.2037)]

Tim Carey said:

As there seemed to be some talk about making the private lists public on
CSG I'll post to this site.

<Thanks very much, Tim - and thanks, Bill, for the reply.>

I second your emotion! This is much better than debating religious
convictions on the CSGNet. :sunglasses:

MOL is an inherent PCT topic. I am extremely interested in MOL in
application. I am offering to do some Work-Life Counseling at my clients
and learn, demonstrate and improve MOL counseling techniques.

I will do this without charge (an indication of what my early attempts will
probably be worth when, as with Tim Carey, the employee says or does
something that leaves me breathless and confused about what to say or do
next.)

Anyone trying to apply MOL/PCT, I encourage you to post publically always
using that subject so those who are not interested can easily delete that
mail.

Kenny

51

[From Tim Carey (980820.0635)]

Are you waiting for him to make a background-type comment, or are you
trying to push him up a level? The general question, "What are you
thinking?", may have the general answer, "None of your business." I think
it's important to follow, not lead, and just wait for the opportunity.

Good point Bill. Thanks.

Is this kid seeing you voluntarily?

Apparently so, but I don't think he has a high opinion of the mental health
profession at the moment. He punched a hole in the wall of his
psychiatrists office and was hospitalised and medicated as a kind of
"punishment"!! He's says he's sick of constantly telling people about his
problems and nothing being done about it.

Tim

52

[From Tim Carey (980820.0645)]

[From Bill Powers (980819.1252 MDT)]

create a conflict between him and you. The pattern is sitting right there
staring both of you in the face. Get him to describe it. I predict that

as

soon as you can get him to talk about this "on the other hand" pattern,

he

will tell you all about it, and without doing it.

Excellent comments Bill. I really like the idea of talking about the
pattern. It seems a very natural thing to do because it comes up in almost
every conversation we have, and I am really interested in what might be
going on for him.

The simplicity of this stuff is wonderful. Thanks for your patience Bill.

Regards,

Tim

53

[From Tim Carey (980821.0700)]

I had my second session yesterday with a woman who wanted help with
parenting problems. She has three year old twins who run riot and don't
listen to her. As I spoke to her though, it became apparent that there is
much more going on. She was hospitalised earlier in the year for depression
and suicidal ideation, she has had various phobias, episodes of mania, and
panic attacks. As we spoke she said what she really wanted was confidence.
She would like to be able to tell people when she thinks something is going
right but at the moment she just "freezes".

At one point she asked me if I thought she was normal and I used the script
you had suggested in a previous post Bill.

"Are you wondering whether I think you're normal?"
"Yes"
"Do you really want to know whether I think you're normal or not?"
"Yes, do you?"
"What's going on for you as you sit there waiting for me to tell you
whether I think you're normal or not?"

The first time we had this dialogue she didn't answer this question but
started to talk about how I should know what's normal because that's my job
etc., etc., and then she started chatting about something else. About 5-10
minutes later however she asked me again if I thought she was normal and we
had essentially the same dialogue as above. This time when I asked the
"what's going on for you question" she said:

"Well I just feel really small like everyone is towering over me and
looking down at me."

This seemed to be really significant for her and we chatted a bit about how
this feeling was for her. Eventually she said that she just couldn't tell
people when something was bothering her. I asked her if this concerned her,
she said yes, and when I asked her about her concerns she said:

"I think about what I should say to them but then I think everyone will
look at me if I do that and then I just freeze."

This is about all we got to in this session. What are your thoughts Bill?
Where would you go from here? I kind of had in mind just to start talking
next week generally to see what was going on for her and go from there.
Would you mention specifically what we talked about last week and try to
get this going again or just take what comes? What about you David, what do
you think? I'm not really used to doing MOL on an ongoing basis, so I'm
really interested to see where this will go.

Cheers,

Tim

54

Chris Carey is seeing a woman in individual therapy and is using the MOL. He
says: "I'm not really used to doing MOL on an ongoing basis, so I'm really
interested to see where this will go."

He described a session and wonders how to proceed with the next session. Chris,
have you described the MOL to this woman? When you are doing it with her, do
you say something like: Let's do the MOL for the topic X which you have just
mentioned and see where it takes us. Is this OK? I have taken this approach
with a man I worked with recently and it seemed to work fine. I also tape
recorded the sessions using a Radio Shack tape recorder and two microphones. It
worked fine, both voices were very clear. I still haven't transcribed the
tapes.

Chris has a tentative plan of: " I kind of had in mind just to start talking
next week generally to see what was going on for her and go from there." This
sounds fine. This is what my favorite psychotherapist Alvin Mahrer does with
his Experiential Psychotherapy. In the case I described above with the man, I
came up with a short list of topics based on the case and asked the man to talk
about each topic as we used the MOL to explore the topic.

From what you told us about the woman, some topics which occur to me: Being a

parent. Being in the hospital. The experience of talking to other people.

I like the idea of separating the MOL work from non MOL conversation. It is a
different way of conversing. People experience it as a little strange. But if
one clearly says: I am going into my MOL mode now and it is mutually
agreeable, then there does not seem to be a problem. Also, it is harder to
work in the MOL mode because one is concentrating and listening much harder.

Take care.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re: MOL
Date: 8/20/98

55

[From Bill Powers (980820.2113 MDT)]

Tim Carey (980821.0700)--

This seemed to be really significant for her and we chatted a bit about how
this feeling was for her. Eventually she said that she just couldn't tell
people when something was bothering her. I asked her if this concerned her,
she said yes, and when I asked her about her concerns she said:

"I think about what I should say to them but then I think everyone will
look at me if I do that and then I just freeze."

This is about all we got to in this session. What are your thoughts Bill?
Where would you go from here? I kind of had in mind just to start talking
next week generally to see what was going on for her and go from there.
Would you mention specifically what we talked about last week and try to
get this going again or just take what comes? What about you David, what do
you think? I'm not really used to doing MOL on an ongoing basis, so I'm
really interested to see where this will go.

Hard to give good advice from this distance. It sounds to me as though
she's talking about very important concerns, real things that will make a
big difference when she gets them sorted out. It seems to me that the only
thing you can do, MOL-wise, is to listen for opportunities to get her to
talk about her reaction to expressing what's bothering her. I don't think
you need to direct her back onto this track; nothing else is more important
to her, and this subject will inevitably keep coming up until she can
finally deal with it.

Here's what the guru wants to say:

This is a bad problem of long standing, and you have to be patient. Just
keep listening for the opening to the next level and gently encourage her
to take that one step up, even if only for a few minutes. The only thing
that will help her to change is to go up a level, and then another.
Reorganization follows awareness, but if my understanding of it is right,
it's random, and she may have to try many ways to get out of this problem.
I hope she does.

Best,

Bill P.

56

[From Tim Carey (980821.1850)]

From: David Goldstein

Hi David, thanks for your comments and insights. I like the idea of
explaining the concept to the people you work with. It seems to be
important.

Regards,

Tim

57

[From Tim Carey (980821.18590)]

[From Bill Powers (980820.2113 MDT)]

Hard to give good advice from this distance.

I'd never noticed :slight_smile:

It sounds to me as though

she's talking about very important concerns, real things that will make

a

big difference when she gets them sorted out. It seems to me that the

only

thing you can do, MOL-wise, is to listen for opportunities to get her to
talk about her reaction to expressing what's bothering her. I don't think
you need to direct her back onto this track; nothing else is more

important

to her, and this subject will inevitably keep coming up until she can
finally deal with it.

Yep, this all seems to make sense. Thanks

Here's what the guru wants to say:

I always like hearing from the guru :wink:

This is a bad problem of long standing, and you have to be patient. Just
keep listening for the opening to the next level and gently encourage her
to take that one step up, even if only for a few minutes. The only thing
that will help her to change is to go up a level, and then another.

Again, patience is really important isn't it?

Reorganization follows awareness, but if my understanding of it is right,
it's random, and she may have to try many ways to get out of this

problem.

I hope she does.

I like this randomness idea. What do you think about explaining the
reorganisation process to her (particularly the idea that things might even
seem a bit out of control for a while)? Is this
important/necessary/beneficial? What would be the important things to make
her aware of?

Regards,

Tim

58

[From Bill Powers (980821.0658 MDT)]

Tim Carey (980821.1859)--

I like this randomness idea. What do you think about explaining the
reorganisation process to her (particularly the idea that things might even
seem a bit out of control for a while)? Is this
important/necessary/beneficial? What would be the important things to make
her aware of?

I do think it helps to understand about reorganization. Then, when you're
reorganizing, you can say, "I'm not going nuts and falling to pieces; I'm
reorganizing, and pretty soon things will be a little better because of
it." The biggest difficulty people have is not really the problem itself
(whatever it is), but being stuck in it for years and years. When you've
been stuck in a problem for a long time, the most important thing is to try
something new -- even at random. If that doesn't make things better, you
can try again. But if you just keep doing the same things you've always
done about the problem, you'll still have it when you're finished. As the
RT people put it, "Is what you'e doing getting you what you want?" And the
follow-on question, if the answer is _no_, should be "Well, then, wouldn't
it be better to try something different?"

Best,

Bill P.

59

[From Tim Carey (980822.0930)]

[From Bill Powers (980821.0658 MDT)]

done about the problem, you'll still have it when you're finished. As the
RT people put it, "Is what you'e doing getting you what you want?" And

the

follow-on question, if the answer is _no_, should be "Well, then,

wouldn't

it be better to try something different?"

I heard a catchy phrase once from a course I did (NLP I think) ... "If you
always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always
got"

Thanks for the comments on reorganisation.

Tim

60

[From Bruce Kodish 980821.21:00 PT]

In a message dated 98-08-21 19:41:49 EDT, Tim Cary wrote:

<<
I heard a catchy phrase once from a course I did (NLP I think) ... "If you
always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always
got"
  >>

Hi Tim,

Just to confuse things ( 8-> ), from a PCT point of view (at least the way I
understand it) that doesn't seem accurate. Of course, I'm new to this
discipline and I may be way off base. If so, I hope someone will correct me.

If I have nigh exactly the 'same' motor output each time say I turn into my
driveway with my car, I'm going to get different outcomes each time, perhaps
quite undesirable outcomes. That's because different disturbances, however
minor, likely will occur each time I make the turn. Maybe I'm trying to keep
my cat from jumping out of her carrying box next to me. Maybe I have one hand
occupied with the coffee cup I'm holding. Maybe there's a strong crosswind.
Maybe I have a flat tire, etc.

If I control for the stable (relatively invariant) outcome of perceiving my
car safely between the two walls on either side of the driveway, my output
will need to vary in varying degrees and ways.

Tim, what understanding does the quote you mentioned seek to convey? I have
heard it quoted a number of times. What insight does it provide for you? And
could it get stated differently to take into account the notion of variable
actions for relatively invariant outcomes?

Regards,

Bruce Kodish

Pasadena, CA
Tel:626-441-4627
email:bikodish@aol.com
http://www.transmillennium.net/brucekodish/