money and PCT

[From Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.13:21 CDT]

I ran across an article today
in Real World Economics Review (warning: this is a heterodox economics journal)

**Efficient market theory vs.
Keynes’s liquidity
theory ** 85

Paul Davidson download pdf

In it, Davidson makes the following point, which I thought had
relevance for a PCT based model of the economy:

Taming uncertainty in Keynes’s liquidity theory

For decisions that involved potential large spending outflows or
possible large income inflows that span a significant length of time, people
“know” that they do not know what the future will be.
Nevertheless, society has attempted to create institutions that will provide
people with some control over their uncertain economic destinies.

In capitalist economies the use of money and legally binding
money contracts to organize production and sales of goods and services
permits individuals to have some control over their cash inflows and outflows
and therefore some control of their monetary economic future. Purchase
contracts provide household decision makers with some monetary cost control
over major aspects of their cost of living today and for months and perhaps
years to come. Sales contracts provide business firms with the legal promise
of current and future cash inflows sufficient to meet the business
firms’ costs of production and generate a profit.

Note that in this view, money is not just some other good to be
exchanged. It, plus legally binding contracts denominated in money, is
the mechanism by which we achieve our economic reference signals.

Yes, we could write barter contracts, but as Davidson says
later:

Money is that thing that government decides will settle all
legal contractual obligations. This definition of money is much wider than
the definition of legal tender which is “ This note is legal tender for
all debts, private and public”

An individual is said to be liquid if he/she can meet all
contractual obligations as they come due. For business firms and households
the maintenance of one’s liquid status is of prime importance if
bankruptcy is to be avoided.

Hence, people hold money (as savings) in times of uncertainty
(which all times are really, though we seem to forget this as a society
after times have been good for a while). They hold money so that even in the
face of economic disturbances (even planned ones like college for the kids) they
can continue to maintain their reference signals. If they don’t
have the money, they take on debt to acquire it.

Money, then, has special properties, the chief one being
that it is the most liquid of all assets. As such, it is that asset that most
easily enables people to control their economic lives (although if they take on
too much debt, they will quickly find they lose in the long run what they
gained in the short run),

At least, that’s my interpretation of money and PCT. I’d
be interested in hearing others’.

Frank

···

From: Control Systems
Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill
Powers
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 1:18 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: [CSGNET] economics

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.07.0945 MDT)]

Frank Lenk (2009.09.06.20:32 CDT] –

FL: Well, Bill, since you’ve thrown down the gauntlet,
I guess I need to reply.

WARNING: About 2/3 of the proposal is actually a
review of the urban sociology literature. The problem I (ultimately) want to
solve is concentrated poverty among minorities in urban areas (affecting mostly
African-Americans in Kansas City, but also Latinos). The model I am hoping
develop is merely a tool for understanding more clearly the nature of problem
and the effectiveness of proposed solutions. I think PCT and agent-based
modeling give me the best chance of developing such a tool.

BP: I think so, too. I hope you’re aware of the recent book by McClelland and
Ferraro, “Purpose, Meaning, and Action,” which is about using PCT in
sociology.

[http://www.amazon.com/Purpose-Meaning-Action-Theories-Sociology/dp/1403967989

](http://www.amazon.com/Purpose-Meaning-Action-Theories-Sociology/dp/1403967989)I’ll go over the draft dissertation in more detail, but there are a couple
of points to make.

The main one for now is the idea that reference levels originate in the social
system. I think this is a simple mistake, and one reason why the model of
individuals has to be kept in mind. A reference level is simply a particular
state of a perception that has been selected as a target or goal. A cruise
control works that way: when the driver pushes a button, the current
speedometer reading is stored as a reference signal, which then serves to
specify the speedometer reading that is to be maintained. The driver, a
higher-order control system, pushes the button when satisfied with the current
speed.

Each person has perceptions of various aspects of society. Society exists only
as the set of all individual perceptions of it (where else could it be?).
People may learn to use similar words to refer to social variables (like
“respect”), but those words often point to very different
perceptions.

from interacting with people, individuals determine which results of social
interactions they like or don’t like, and set their reference levels for the
social variables they perceive accordingly. They control those social variables
(or try to) according to the way they see them, not the way other people see
them. The mistake old-time sociologists made was to assume that the society
they saw was the same one that the individuals in it saw. I think your model
might benefit from acknowledging that what a suburban researcher sees as
“urban core decline” might be quite different from what a resident of
the urban core sees. This might make the behavior of such a resident more
comprehensible to the researcher. It might be that the resident sees the
“decline” as part of someone’s effort – maybe his own – to make
life better.

FL: I should also say that, while I did not know him, Bill
Williams was a professor at my school, the University of Missouri-Kansas City
(UMKC). I was introduced to PCT by a colleague of his, Dr. Jim Sturgeon.

BP: I remember Bill’s talking about Jim Sturgeon, who helped Bill achieve
recognition that he despaired of ever getting. It’s good to know that Sturgeon
was spreading the word about PCT, too.

FL: The major difference in my approach from Bill
P.’s, at least as I see it, is that I am doing the modeling at a couple
of levels below the economy itself. I understand the need for simplicity
– In trying to explain what I am doing to others, I have often to said that
I would be satisfied if I produced decent model of a family, let alone an
entire economy or society. But in our search for starting simple, Bill
and I are starting in different places. I would like to model at the
level of, not just individuals, but individuals who interact with each other
within families and communities. I want a model that starts from their
basic (intrinsic) needs and has the economy emerge from their social
interactions and the interactions with the available technology (which I would
have to specify).

That’s actually the same level I want to get to, but I’m starting with a model
that initially takes into account only the mechanics of the economy: buying and
selling, working and earning. The next step is a similarly low-level model of
the producers and their plants. All agent-based, of course – nothing happens
just because it happens. Then I would start getting into questions of why the
reference levels for the lower-level perceptions are set one way rather than
another. Because I am not an economist, I have to take small steps, and would
expect that at some stage real economists would get impatient and say
“Move over, let me do that.” I would happily comply.

As I said in my earlier post, one can view the economy as
simply a set of behaviors we use to control the amount of food in our bellies,
subject to certain environmental constraints. My conception of the environment
includes the social as well as the natural and the technological,
however. I want my agents to figure out how to organize themselves to
live in the virtual world inside my computer, much as we have had to figure out
how to organize ourselves to live in this one.

You’re just talking about higher-level organizations than I am starting with.
To me, social aspects of the economy boil down to what individuals think the
society is and should be, which in turn come from their experiences with it
(including what others tell them about it). The only way these higher-level
systems can work, however, is through adjusting the reference levels for the
systems I am trying to model first.

There are several reasons for my wanting to model at this
level. First, I think that the only human behavior we truly understand is
that which we experience, which is that of ourselves and small groups of others
with whom we regularly associate. This is the level at which we have any
expertise to specify our model. Our common, every-day experience provides
the data we need to begin, though ideally this would be checked against results
from psychology, anthropology and sociology.

OK, I agree that families are a good place to start, being a finite unit with
not too many interactions. In my approach families would enter initially only
as dependents – drains on the store of goods and services which breadwinners
work to pay for. I don’t mean they’re resented for that – that’s a matter for
higher levels of control. I just mean they have that effect.

Second, human behavior is always in reference to others.
Under all but the rarest of circumstances, there is no such thing as an
isolated individual living alone. We depend upon others for our most basic
needs - for food, for sex and parenting of offspring to
reproduce. A model that begins with its “atom” an
isolated individual is likely to produce a different outcome from one that
specifies interactions between individuals from the beginning (perhaps a
mother-child relationship is the atom of social models).

Don’t worry about that part of it, it will be added once the foundation is
laid. At the level where I’m considering the model now, reference signals are
simply variables and we can look at the consequences of adjusting them. We can
introduce more people, and see the consequences of different combinations of
reference levels being sought in a common environment. This doesn’t commit us
to any particular reference settings; it just says that if you set them this
way, that is what will happen. Then, of course, we have to try to test
that prediction with data.

Obviously, to get interacting individuals one has to
start by identifying, specifying and debugging the control systems inside a
single individual, but those control systems should be built to perceive others
and let others influence the individual’s references (learning by
emulation or mimicry, for example) and perceptions (or at least what is
important to perceive).

Yes, and this is my intention once the lower levels are taken care of. Though I
think references are acquired in a way somewhat different from what you assume
(I maintain that children learn perceptions and references mainly by watching
what adults do and interacting with them, not by listening to what they say).
And anyway, we don’t just “learn references.” We learn to adjust
references in real time for lower systems as a means of controlling
higher-order variables. Reference signals are normally variable according to
actions initiated at higher levels and disturbances that tend to alter
higher-level perceptions. We don’t just “set and forget” references.

Third, and this is especially important given my problem of
concentrated minority poverty, once we allow others to influence either our
references or our perceptions (and probably both), the notion of Power rears
its head. Who influences whom and how? There is much evidence that, at
least partially, we set our references according to the behavior of those more
powerful than we. This is certainly true of a child. It also probably
accounts (again, at least partially) for the transmission of stereotypes, roles
and norms.

I think our references and perceptions grow out of social intereactions not by
imitation so much as by resisting disturbances. What we take away from social
interactions is mainly what we learned to do to maintain control, not what we
saw the other person doing. In some cases, of course, a child sees something
another person is doing, and says “I could do that!” But the actual
learning comes from the doing, not the watching. A great deal of what is
learned (for example, from being abused) is what one has to learn to maintain
control of one’s own life.

So in my proposed approach, the economy is behavior we
engage in to control the food, shelter and water we need to survive while we
engage in other behavior to control for the other things that are important
(perhaps more important) to us – mating, parenting, gaining social
position or esteem. Clearly, these purposes are inter-related – one
who controls the resources for food and shelter also becomes powerful and
desirable as a mate and a parent. Some (many?) will argue that gaining
esteem or social position is really all about maximizing potential for mating,
so in this sense is only a behavior to control for mating probability or
frequency rather than a reference. I tend to think that while this may
have originally been the case, humans and their antecedents have been social
creatures long enough that some hardwiring of an intrinsic need for belonging
to a group or being valued by the group is likely.

Isn’t it simpler to assume that what is hardwired is a desire for certain
consequences of belonging or being valued? Those desires are satisfied in
different people by different behaviors, sometimes by opposite behaviors –
which accounts for the low correlations one gets in any study aimed at finding
universal behavior patterns. Some people like being with other people all the
time; some people like a lot of time alone. It’s not the behaviors we care
about, it’s the consequences they produce. Some might say that people learn to
make fires in order to imitate others who made fires. I say they learned to
make fires because they want to stay warm.

Reading through Bill’s approach again, I think it is
clear that it is simpler and more achievable more quickly than mine. But
one of the things I uncover in my survey of the agent-based modeling literature
is that the models are very sensitive to assumptions, especially about what the
rules are that the agents follow.

Yes, indeed. And those rules are variables or adjustable features in my model.
I check out rules to see how they work, but anyone can plug any rules they like
into the same model to see what happens. For example, in the model I sent you,
a plant manager keeps inventories at a fixed level by adjusting prices. That
works quite well and gives a reasonable law of supply and demand, but maybe
there are other ways of doing the same thing. You can substitute the other
ways, or you can add more plants and managers and see what happens when
different managers work according to different rules. Maybe some rules lead to
going out of business. Others may generate conflicts.

In PCT terms, where do our references actually come from? If
they are simply assumptions made by the modeler, they will be subject to
criticism. Some are intrinsic, yes. But the rest? We must learn them. We likely
learn them as kids, both from experience and from others. So let’s model
the learning process in families and groups of families and see what kind of
economy we can derive from members’ efforts to satisfy their needs.

Fine, the reorganization algorithm has been checked out in systems of up to 500
interacting control systems. It ought to work with four or five people
controlling 10 or 20 variables. But you do need a starting point – an
underlying architecture of control systems to provide parameters that can be
reorganized.

My strategy in general is to model control systems and leave their detailed
properties to be determined. Where I assume reference levels to test the model,
I want to substitute higher-order control systems to adjust them once the lower
level is working right. Where I assume particular controlled variables, anyone
is free to propose other controlled variables. Ditto for means of action. The
only reason for making particular assumptions about the lower-level systems is
to make sure they will work, and to learn what they can do.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.12.1514 MDT)]

It’s pretty hard to figure out who is saying what in some of these posts.
I’ve started adopting whosever idea it was to put initials at the start,
like BP: for Bill Powers, and FL: for Frank Lenk when the author changes.
If we all used styled text for messages, the normal process of quoting
would put vertical bars beside quoted material, double vertical bars
beside quotes of quotes, and so on. But I keep getting what is obviously
unstyled text from people and the paragraphs just keep appearing with no
indication of who is talking. So I’m using, when I remember to do so, a
method that will identify the current writer no matter how the messages
are sent.

Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.13:21 CDT) –

FL: I ran across an article
today in Real World Economics Review (warning: this is a heterodox
economics journal)

**Efficient market theory vs. Keynes’s liquidity
theory ** 85

Paul Davidson

download pdf

In it, Davidson makes the following point, which I thought had relevance
for a PCT based model of the economy:

Taming uncertainty in Keynes’s liquidity theory

For decisions that involved potential large spending outflows or possible
large income inflows that span a significant length of time, people
“know” that they do not know what the future will be. Nevertheless,
society has attempted to create institutions that will provide people
with some control over their uncertain economic
destinies.

In capitalist economies the use
of money and legally binding money contracts to organize production and
sales of goods and services permits individuals to have some control over
their cash inflows and outflows and therefore some control of their
monetary economic future. Purchase contracts provide household decision
makers with some monetary cost control over major aspects of their cost
of living today and for months and perhaps years to come. Sales contracts
provide business firms with the legal promise of current and future cash
inflows sufficient to meet the business firms’ costs of production and
generate a profit.

BP: What is missing from this is a proposal about what effect this
certainty or uncertainty will have on the goal-seeking behavior of
individuals. From that, we should be able to make predictions about the
effects of changes in these uncertainties – given a reliably correct
model of the mechanisms of the economy.

FL: Note that in this view,
money is not just some other good to be exchanged. It, plus legally
binding contracts denominated in money, is the mechanism by which we
achieve our economic reference signals.

Yes, we could write barter contracts, but as Davidson says
later:

Money is that thing that government decides will settle all legal
contractual obligations. This definition of money is much wider than the
definition of legal tender which is “ This note is legal tender for all
debts, private and public”

BP: I’m trying to figure out how you decided I was proposing barter
contracts. I wasn’t, not intentionally. I did say that my beginning model
would treat cash reserves much like any other commodity – that is, the
consumer would have a reference level for how much cash reserve was
wanted, and adjust purchases to avoid getting too far away from the
reference condition. There would be similar considerations for the
purchases, too: How hungry will I let myself get just to keep my cash
reserve at the level I want? Or how many extra hours will I work, and how
tired will I let myself get, to support the levels of consumption and
cash reserves existing at present? Money, because it can legally be used
to purchase anything for sale, is a pretty valuable commodity, much
easier than trading dogs for shoes, but there are still interactions
among all the control systems involved. Once the model is built and
working, you can put in any loop gains or perceptual weightings that you
please, to see what the effects will be.

FL: An individual is said to be
liquid if he/she can meet all contractual obligations as they come due.
For business firms and households the maintenance of one’s liquid status
is of prime importance if bankruptcy is to be avoided.

Hence, people hold money (as savings) in times of uncertainty (which
all times are really, though we seem to forget this as a society
after times have been good for a while).

BP: As far as my initial model proposal is concerned, this is the place
where the things you’re talking about interface with the model. Are there
goals for avoiding bankruptcy? How much liquidity is desired? Those
things will affect the reference levels for cash reserves, which in turn
will have to be considered together with desires for goods and the need
for some time to rest. Tell me what those reference levels are. I’ll plug
them into the model and see what the consequences are.

FL: Money, then, has special
properties, the chief one being that it is the most liquid of all
assets. As such, it is that asset that most easily enables people
to control their economic lives (although if they take on too much debt,
they will quickly find they lose in the long run what they gained in the
short run),

BP: Fine, so let’s figure out how to put those properties of money into
the model. Actually, some of them are there already, in that money can be
withdrawn at any time from the cash reserve and be used to buy anything
the person wants to acquire. However you talk about that fact,
“liquidity” is build into the model already. The model, for the
time being, does not have any corresponding mechanisms for barter
exchanges – X units of one good for Y units of another good. You could
always add that if you wished, and give some people the appropriate sets
of perceptions and reference levels. And flea markets.

Remember, all this has to be done in six days. On the seventh day you
rest.

The kind of modeling I’m talking about doesn’t involve terms like
“liquidity”. The situation in the model that corresponds to
liquidity is simply money in the cash reserve, but how you characterize
that doesn’t affect how the model runs. You’re talking about the
psychology of individuals, which is a separate subject. What’s important
is to portray the mechanisms of the economy correctly; once you’ve done
that, in all the necessary massively parallel interlocking loops way, you
can try out proposals for all sorts of psychologizing and see how
realistic the result will be. But if you don’t have a correct and
reasonably complete model of the mechanics of the economy, you can’t do
that. The first thing you have to do is make sure that when you make
assumptions about what people want and do, the model will give you the
correct consequences.

Best,

Bill P.

(Gavin Ritz 2009.09.13.15.00NZT)

[From Bill Powers
(2009.09.12.1514 MDT)]

It’s pretty hard to figure out who is saying what in some of these posts. I’ve
started adopting whosever idea it was to put initials at the start, like BP:
for Bill Powers, and FL: for Frank Lenk when the author changes. If we all used
styled text for messages, the normal process of quoting would put vertical bars
beside quoted material, double vertical bars beside quotes of quotes, and so
on. But I keep getting what is obviously unstyled text from people and the
paragraphs just keep appearing with no indication of who is talking. So I’m
using, when I remember to do so, a method that will identify the current writer
no matter how the messages are sent.

Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.13:21 CDT) –

FL: I ran across an
article today in Real World Economics Review (warning: this is a heterodox
economics journal)

Efficient market theory vs. Keynes**’s
liquidity theory ** 85

Paul Davidson download
pdf

In it, Davidson makes the following point, which I thought had relevance for a
PCT based model of the economy:

Taming uncertainty in Keynes’s liquidity theory
For decisions that involved potential large spending outflows or possible large
income inflows that span a significant length of time, people
“know” that they do not know what the future will be. Nevertheless,
society has attempted to create institutions that will provide people with some
control over their uncertain economic destinies.

Taming uncertainty is probably the most
silly thing I have ever heard with respect to an economy. In fact if one looks
at differential price movements it looks fractal, nothing there that says there
is any certainty at all. Clustered volatility is the only certainty one gets. Is
that a reflection of mind? What is it?

Mandelbrot has shown this clustered
fractal volatility over and over again.

In capitalist economies
the use of money

Money is not well defined, neither is
value, in fact the use of money as a measure is the problem as it measures both
qualitative and quantitative things together and in any bi-conditional way. Quite
the opposite in science which has clear distinctions between say energy
(Joules) and entropy (J/K or bits/ symbol). A good read on this is V. Chalidze
Entropy and money.

and legally binding money
contracts to organize production and sales of goods and services permits
individuals to have some control over their cash inflows and outflows and
therefore some control of their monetary economic future. Purchase contracts
provide household decision makers with some monetary cost control over major
aspects of their cost of living today and for months and perhaps years to come.
Sales contracts provide business firms with the legal promise of current and
future cash inflows sufficient to meet the business firms’ costs of
production and generate a profit.

BP: What is missing from this is a proposal about what effect this certainty or
uncertainty will have on the goal-seeking behavior of individuals.

Absolutely.

From that, we should be
able to make predictions about the effects of changes in these uncertainties –

This will never happen, because we can’t
ever be certain of any agent especially once they are interacting. We go from a
lower state of missing information to a higher state of missing information so
as the numbers of agents become large (the economy) the uncertainty of knowing
more about the system decreases. This is at its essence really just entropy.

That’s why I want to find the relationship
between re-organisation (PCT) and entropy. I believe that’s where the
gold mine lies.

given a reliably correct
model of the mechanisms of the economy.

FL: Note that in this
view, money is not just some other good to be exchanged. It, plus legally
binding contracts denominated in money, is the mechanism by which we achieve
our economic reference signals.

Yes, we could write barter contracts, but as Davidson says later:

Money is that thing that government decides will settle all legal contractual
obligations. This definition of money is much wider than the definition of
legal tender which is “ This note is legal tender for all debts, private
and public”

Not sure what this has to do with PCT.
Money at its inception was a value linked to the gods (Moneta) and nothings changed it’s
still linked to the gods.

BP: I’m trying to figure out how you decided I was proposing barter contracts.
I wasn’t, not intentionally. I did say that my beginning model would treat cash
reserves much like any other commodity – that is, the consumer would have a
reference level for how much cash reserve was wanted, and adjust purchases to
avoid getting too far away from the reference condition. There would be similar
considerations for the purchases, too: How hungry will I let myself get just to
keep my cash reserve at the level I want? Or how many extra hours will I work,
and how tired will I let myself get, to support the levels of consumption and
cash reserves existing at present? Money, because it can legally be used to
purchase anything for sale, is a pretty valuable commodity, much easier than
trading dogs for shoes, but there are still interactions among all the control
systems involved. Once the model is built and working, you can put in any loop
gains or perceptual weightings that you please, to see what the effects will
be.

FL: An individual is said
to be liquid if he/she can meet all contractual obligations as they come due.
For business firms and households the maintenance of one’s liquid status
is of prime importance if bankruptcy is to be avoided.

Hence, people hold money (as savings) in times of uncertainty (which all
times are really, though we seem to forget this as a society after times have
been good for a while).

BP: As far as my initial model proposal is concerned, this is the place where
the things you’re talking about interface with the model. Are there goals for
avoiding bankruptcy? How much liquidity is desired? Those things will affect
the reference levels for cash reserves, which in turn will have to be
considered together with desires for goods and the need for some time to rest.
Tell me what those reference levels are. I’ll plug them into the model and see
what the consequences are.

FL: Money, then, has
special properties, the chief one being that it is the most liquid of all
assets. As such, it is that asset that most easily enables people to
control their economic lives (although if they take on too much debt, they will
quickly find they lose in the long run what they gained in the short run),

BP: Fine, so let’s figure out how to put those properties of money into the
model.

Impossible until we know how to measure money
and understand the entropy-energy equivalent in both economy and PCT. The first
step is define entropy in PCT. This idea is probably as radical as the concept
of PCT. I’m sure there won’t be many takers.

Actually, some of them
are there already, in that money can be withdrawn at any time from the cash
reserve and be used to buy anything the person wants to acquire. However you
talk about that fact, “liquidity” is build into the model already.
The model, for the time being, does not have any corresponding mechanisms for
barter exchanges – X units of one good for Y units of another good. You could
always add that if you wished, and give some people the appropriate sets of
perceptions and reference levels. And flea markets.

Remember, all this has to be done in six days. On the seventh day you rest.

The kind of modeling I’m talking about doesn’t involve terms like
“liquidity”. The situation in the model that corresponds to liquidity
is simply money in the cash reserve, but how you characterize that doesn’t
affect how the model runs. You’re talking about the psychology of individuals,
which is a separate subject. What’s important is to portray the mechanisms of
the economy correctly; once you’ve done that, in all the necessary massively
parallel interlocking loops way, you can try out proposals for all sorts of
psychologizing and see how realistic the result will be. But if you don’t have
a correct and reasonably complete model of the mechanics of the economy, you
can’t do that. The first thing you have to do is make sure that when you make
assumptions about what people want and do, the model will give you the correct
consequences.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.19:23 CDT]

Bill – I’m sorry my post wasn’t clear about
who was doing the talking when – on my email system, Davidson’s
quotes were in a different color and font. I forgot that this sometimes
gets scrambled or lost in transmission to other email systems.

Thank you again for taking the time to thoughtfully comment on
my ideas. I hope to be approved to begin my dissertation research by the end of
the year, and the more debugging of my ideas I can do now, the smoother and
quicker that work will go.

The comment on barter contracts wasn’t directed at your
proposal at all. It was directed at my own profession, which typically believes
that money is neutral –meaning it has no effect on the equilibrium values
of employment, production and real (inflation-adjusted) income. Keynes’s
liquidity preference theory is largely about the fact that if there is fundamental
uncertainty about the future, people will want to hold money, and holding or
hoarding money means not all income gets spent. If all income doesn’t get
spent, then Say’s law doesn’t hold (i.e., that supply creates its
own demand) and, in turn, this means that unemployment can result that is involuntary.
While this might be an unremarkable conclusion for non-economists (especially
given the current unemployment rate near 10 percent and those without a job
certainly don’t look like they are going without work voluntarily), orthodox
economists believe this can only happen if markets aren’t working
properly, e.g. if government imposes a minimum wage or laborers refuse to
accept a lower wage so that wages are “sticky” downward. Keynes
was arguing that involuntary unemployment is a natural occurrence in a monetary
production economy like modern capitalism. To those of a heterodox persuasion,
the fact that goods, contracts, and especially debts are denominated in money
means that money can never be neutral and, in fact, sticky wages are necessary
to keep incomes from dropping so far that prior debt and contractual
obligations cannot be met. In this view, fully flexible wages in an
economic downturn would lead to a loan and contract defaults that undermine the
financial system and cause a full-fledged depression. While the current
financial crisis was caused by home values declining rather than incomes, it is
true that it was increased defaults on sub-prime loans at higher than expected
rates that made the pricing of widely held but complex securities impossible,
and financial markets froze as a result. Thus, there does seem to be a
link between increased risk of defaults and financial system collapse, lending
some credence to the heterodox point of view.

But these are arguments that are made between heterodox and
orthodox economists, and I did not intend to drag this list into that set of
controversies. I should not have made the barter contract comment, or
perhaps even discussed any of the above, as well. I really do want to keep the focus
on PCT modeling more than on theoretical arguments. In fact, I see the modeling
as the only way to move beyond arguments, because it gives us something we can
test the theories with.

From that standpoint, I mainly sent the Davidson quotes along
because I hadn’t really thought about money in PCT terms before - as something
that provides a mechanism for maintaining homeostasis in a changing economic environment.
I was wondering if this way of viewing money made any sense to others with more
experience thinking in PCT (sometimes it feels like I am learning to think in a
new language, and I’m not sure I’m thinking properly yet).

BP: The kind of modeling I’m talking about doesn’t
involve terms like “liquidity”. The situation in the model that
corresponds to liquidity is simply money in the cash reserve, but how you
characterize that doesn’t affect how the model runs. You’re talking about the
psychology of individuals, which is a separate subject. What’s important is to
portray the mechanisms of the economy correctly; once you’ve done that, in all
the necessary massively parallel interlocking loops way, you can try out
proposals for all sorts of psychologizing and see how realistic the result will
be. But if you don’t have a correct and reasonably complete model of the
mechanics of the economy, you can’t do that. The first thing you have to do is
make sure that when you make assumptions about what people want and do, the
model will give you the correct consequences.

FL: Your point is well taken, as correct consequences are
critical for modeled agents to “know” whether their behaviors are
actually controlling the perceptions they want to control. But I thought
that PCT was more about modeling at the level of purposes than at the level of
mechanisms. If so, shouldn’t I start by questioning what is the purpose
of the economy? What is the purpose of money? What are we trying to
control that we create such things? To my mind, economic behavior is what we
engage in to take care of our physical needs for food, clothing and shelter, which
in turn are driven by the need that we live long enough to mate, reproduce and
have offspring that survive us. From this lofty viewpoint, the economy is
simply a set of behaviors that higher level systems need to organize (and
reorganize, especially when conflicts arise) until most people can achieve
these goals. The uncertainty that Davidson speaks of is nothing but a
fact that all life must deal with by developing systems that are robust with
respect to disturbances, from being able to make rapid adjustments to changing
circumstances to accumulating reserves to draw upon when necessary - e.g.,
fat cells for our bodies and savings for our budgets. Sometimes, though, the
changes are too big or too rapid for us to cope and we get crashes –
population or economic – and then we have to start over again.

The ease with which PCT accommodates such a reasonable story
about the economy is one of the things I love about it.

The one flaw I see in my description above is that there may not
be any higher level control systems that operate at the level of the economy as
a whole to reorganize it. Perhaps that is what government is supposed to be (I
can hear all my neoclassical economist friends cringing at the thought), but
even if one believes that, there is ample room to question its
effectiveness. There may only be lots of individual higher level control
systems attempting to organize and reorganize their own economic behaviors in
their own tiny portion of the economic world. What kind of economic behavior
emerges from these individual efforts and whether it is sufficient to explain
the macroeconomic behavior we observe is one of things I’d love to
explore with a working model.

BP: Remember, all this has to be done in six days. On the
seventh day you rest.

FL: I think this is my problem. I’m hoping I can get
the computer to keep working on its own while I rest.

In my simulated world, I’d like to give my agents the
right purposes (by which I mean the purposes that people actually seem to have
and that, at least theoretically, we could confirm through interviews,
observations, experiments etc.). I’d like the process of reorganization
to get the mechanisms by which they achieve those purposes to be reasonable,
not necessarily duplicates of “real world” mechanisms but
reasonable behaviors given the way I’ve set up my artificial world in my
computer. Then I can make that artificial world and my agents more
closely resemble the real ones, gradually adding information, processes and/or
constraints until both the purposes and the mechanisms seem close enough to
this world that reasonable inferences about its workings can be drawn from experiments
on the simulated one.

I can see many pros for this kind of approach. Help me better
understand the cons.

Frank

···

From: Control Systems
Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill
Powers
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 4:52 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: [CSGNET] money and PCT

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.12.1514 MDT)]

It’s pretty hard to figure out who is saying what in some of these posts. I’ve
started adopting whosever idea it was to put initials at the start, like BP:
for Bill Powers, and FL: for Frank Lenk when the author changes. If we all used
styled text for messages, the normal process of quoting would put vertical bars
beside quoted material, double vertical bars beside quotes of quotes, and so
on. But I keep getting what is obviously unstyled text from people and the
paragraphs just keep appearing with no indication of who is talking. So I’m
using, when I remember to do so, a method that will identify the current writer
no matter how the messages are sent.

Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.13:21 CDT) –

FL: I ran across an article today in Real World Economics
Review (warning: this is a heterodox economics journal)

**Efficient market theory vs. Keynes’s liquidity
theory ** 85
Paul Davidson download
pdf

In it, Davidson makes the following point, which I thought had relevance for a
PCT based model of the economy:

Taming uncertainty in Keynes’s liquidity theory
For decisions that involved potential large spending outflows or possible large
income inflows that span a significant length of time, people “know”
that they do not know what the future will be. Nevertheless, society has
attempted to create institutions that will provide people with some control
over their uncertain economic destinies.

In capitalist economies the use of money and legally binding
money contracts to organize production and sales of goods and services permits
individuals to have some control over their cash inflows and outflows and
therefore some control of their monetary economic future. Purchase contracts
provide household decision makers with some monetary cost control over major
aspects of their cost of living today and for months and perhaps years to come.
Sales contracts provide business firms with the legal promise of current and
future cash inflows sufficient to meet the business firms’ costs of
production and generate a profit.

BP: What is missing from this is a proposal about what effect this certainty or
uncertainty will have on the goal-seeking behavior of individuals. From that,
we should be able to make predictions about the effects of changes in these
uncertainties – given a reliably correct model of the mechanisms of the
economy.

FL: Note that in this view, money is not just some other
good to be exchanged. It, plus legally binding contracts denominated in
money, is the mechanism by which we achieve our economic reference
signals.

Yes, we could write barter contracts, but as Davidson says later:

Money is that thing that government decides will settle all legal contractual
obligations. This definition of money is much wider than the definition of
legal tender which is “ This note is legal tender for all debts, private
and public”

BP: I’m trying to figure out how you decided I was proposing barter contracts.
I wasn’t, not intentionally. I did say that my beginning model would treat cash
reserves much like any other commodity – that is, the consumer would have a
reference level for how much cash reserve was wanted, and adjust purchases to
avoid getting too far away from the reference condition. There would be similar
considerations for the purchases, too: How hungry will I let myself get just to
keep my cash reserve at the level I want? Or how many extra hours will I work,
and how tired will I let myself get, to support the levels of consumption and
cash reserves existing at present? Money, because it can legally be used to
purchase anything for sale, is a pretty valuable commodity, much easier than
trading dogs for shoes, but there are still interactions among all the control
systems involved. Once the model is built and working, you can put in any loop
gains or perceptual weightings that you please, to see what the effects will
be.

FL: An individual is said to be liquid if he/she can meet
all contractual obligations as they come due. For business firms and households
the maintenance of one’s liquid status is of prime importance if
bankruptcy is to be avoided.

Hence, people hold money (as savings) in times of uncertainty (which all
times are really, though we seem to forget this as a society after times have
been good for a while).

BP: As far as my initial model proposal is concerned, this is the place where
the things you’re talking about interface with the model. Are there goals for
avoiding bankruptcy? How much liquidity is desired? Those things will affect
the reference levels for cash reserves, which in turn will have to be
considered together with desires for goods and the need for some time to rest.
Tell me what those reference levels are. I’ll plug them into the model and see
what the consequences are.

FL: Money, then, has special properties, the chief one
being that it is the most liquid of all assets. As such, it is that
asset that most easily enables people to control their economic lives (although
if they take on too much debt, they will quickly find they lose in the long run
what they gained in the short run),

BP: Fine, so let’s figure out how to put those properties of money into the
model. Actually, some of them are there already, in that money can be withdrawn
at any time from the cash reserve and be used to buy anything the person wants
to acquire. However you talk about that fact, “liquidity” is build
into the model already. The model, for the time being, does not have any
corresponding mechanisms for barter exchanges – X units of one good for Y
units of another good. You could always add that if you wished, and give some
people the appropriate sets of perceptions and reference levels. And flea
markets.

Remember, all this has to be done in six days. On the seventh day you rest.

The kind of modeling I’m talking about doesn’t involve terms like
“liquidity”. The situation in the model that corresponds to liquidity
is simply money in the cash reserve, but how you characterize that doesn’t
affect how the model runs. You’re talking about the psychology of individuals,
which is a separate subject. What’s important is to portray the mechanisms of
the economy correctly; once you’ve done that, in all the necessary massively
parallel interlocking loops way, you can try out proposals for all sorts of psychologizing
and see how realistic the result will be. But if you don’t have a correct and
reasonably complete model of the mechanics of the economy, you can’t do that.
The first thing you have to do is make sure that when you make assumptions
about what people want and do, the model will give you the correct
consequences.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.13.1121 MDT)]

Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.19:23 CDT) –

FL: From that standpoint, I
mainly sent the Davidson quotes along because I hadn’t really thought
about money in PCT terms before - as something that provides a mechanism
for maintaining homeostasis in a changing economic environment. I
was wondering if this way of viewing money made any sense to others with
more experience thinking in PCT (sometimes it feels like I am learning to
think in a new language, and I’m not sure I’m thinking properly
yet).

BP: Here is a diagram of the model for the program I sent you (it’s one
of the views you can call up while the program is running).

104124e.jpg

The arrows going into and out of the boxes labeled Rw and Rk are
money flows; you will notice that they both go to or from a box called
Rp. R means cash Reserve. The subscripts are w for Wage-earning consumer,
k for Capital-income consumer, and p for Plant (or Producer).

The arrows going from Rw and Rk into Rp are money being spent by
consumers to purchase goods (and services). Arrows from Rp into Rw and Rk
are, respectively, wages and capital distributions. Wage rate W is
multiplied by the number of worker hours per day (Nw) to determine labor
costs that the Plant must pay for out of its cash reserve.

There are similar paths involving Vw, Vk, and Vp, where V stands for
inVentory (of goods/services). Goods come out of the Plant inventory at a
certain rate and go into the inventories of wage earners and capital
income consumers, and the rate of money flow the other way is simply the
number of goods per unit time multiplied by the unit price. This is where
the transactions take place. Arrows coming out to the right represent the
use-rates of goods in inventory by wage-earners and capital income
consumers, Uw and Uk. Use subtracts goods from the inventories. The labor
of wage-earners is measured in worker-hours per unit time, which,
multiplied by an efficiency (or productivity) constant, generates the
rate at which goods/services appear in the plant’s inventory.

That describes all the flows of money and goods in the environment of the
control systems.

I created five control systems, which are shown across the top. They
represent what five managers (or one manager wearing five hats) are
controlling. The arrow going upward into each controller represents the
variable being sensed and controlled; the arrow coming downward out of
each box represents the parameter or variable that is varied as the means
of control. The reference signal inputs and the gains are shown in red
inside each control-system box.

All variables and constants shown in red are adjustable by the user while
the program runs (including reference level and gain in each control
system).

The five control systems represent a very simple model of the agents who
run this economy. From left to right:

Agent 1 controls the plant cash Reserve by means of varying the constant
Kmul, which determines the size of capital distributions compared with
wage payments; if Kmul equals 1, the capital distributions are equal to
the wage payments. When the cash reserve goes below the reference level,
the multiplier Kmul is reduced, so a smaller proportion of operating
costs is paid to capital-oncome consumers. I did not include another
agent to negotiate wages, but left them to be set by the user. I haven’t
included costs for plant maintenance, raw materials, or purchases from
other plants, either. Or depreciation.

Agent 2 controls the Plant inVentory by varying the prices for the goods.
If the inventory goes above the reference level, the price is lowered
(the goods go on sale); if it falls below, the price is raised. This is
half of the law of supply and demand for this economy.

Agents 3 and 4 are inside the Wage consumer. Agent 3 controls the
inventory of goods by making purchases at the rate Cw. “P” was
already used for price. If the number of goods on hand falls below the
reference level because of use of the goods, the rate of purchasing is
increased (and the opposite for excesses in inventory). This increases
the flow of goods into inventory, and when the goods on hand are
constant, the rate of purchase equals the rate of use. This is the other
half of the law of supply and demand. Note that Say’s law definitely does
not apply, except perhaps indirectly.

Agent 4 in the Wage consumer controls the cash Reserves by varying the
hours worked. If the cash reserves fall below their reference level, the
hours worked are increased, and if they rise above the reference level,
the hours are decreased.

Agent 5 is in the Capital-income consumer. This agent controls his
inventory of goods by varying the purchase rate Ck. The steady-state
inventory occurs when the purchase rate equals the Use rate.

Agent 5 has no control system for the cash reserve, because capital
income is determined by the plant manager controlling the plant’s cash
reserve. The capital-income consumer just gets whatever is left over
after all costs of production are met (including profit, I assume, though
that could be included in the money flow to the capital
consumer).

The money supply in this economy is constant and there is no growth.
There is no bank so there is no credit and no new money (though cash
Reserves can go negative), and no interest is charged when reserves do go
negative.

All the deficiencies of this model can be corrected by adding more
controllers and more properties. A whole financial superstructure has to
be added eventually, and the number of entities, consumers and plants,
will eventually have to be increased. But this model shows the basic
principles being used, and the way economic entities like the law of
supply and demand emerge from the model rather than being explicitly
introduced.

I think that our discussions will get somewhere faster if we start by
talking about the above model. It’s probably quite a bit different from
the usual economic model, though my ignorance in that area is
well-developed.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.15.1240)]

Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.19:23 CDT)–

From that standpoint, I mainly sent the Davidson quotes along
because I hadn’t really thought about money in PCT terms before - as something
that provides a mechanism for maintaining homeostasis in a changing economic environment.
I was wondering if this way of viewing money made any sense to others with more
experience thinking in PCT (sometimes it feels like I am learning to think in a
new language, and I’m not sure I’m thinking properly yet).

Not having any training at all in economics I think I am in a perfect position to understand economics from a PCT perspective;-) I don’t think I would describe my view of money (from a PCT Perspective) as a “mechanism for maintaining homeostasis in a changing economic environment”. I view money as simply a convenient way to deal with the fact that production in most economies is specialized. But let me start from the beginning.
My ideas about economics start with imagining the simplest possible economy; a single individual human. I view this individual as an economy of one. Being a purposeful agent, this person acts to control its inputs, the most important being those that are necessary for survival: food, water, and oxygen, etc. These inputs are controlled relative to specifications that are set autonomously inside the controller himself. In order to control, say, water input, the controller must vary his actions appropriately (going to different locations to find filled streams, building a cistern to collect rain water, etc) to compensate for disturbances (dried up streams, drought periods, etc) and keep the water input at its specified level.
This control process embodies the main components of an economy: production and consumption. The controller is acting to produce the inputs it consumes. When averaged over time we can see that the controller is continuously producing and consuming inputs so as to keep the inputs at their specified level.

So the simplest economy is, from my perspective, the controlling done by an individual. The individual controller is both producer and consumer simultaneously. The controller is continuously varying his actions in order to produce inputs that are consumed at a rate that maintains these inputs (and the physiological consequences thereof) at the specified level.

At the level of the individual, then, economics is the same as psychology; it is simply the science of control. Economics separates from psychology once many individual controllers are involved. But it’s not just the number of controllers that matters;what maters is how these individuals organize themselves into societies of controllers. As Adam Smith points out, the most significant thing about an collection of humans that make up an economy is specialization in terms of production. From a control theory perspective, specialization means that now individuals in a group no longer produce everything they consume; part of each person’s controlling is done by others. The individual who used to control his food input by doing his own hunting, butchering and cooking now depends on others to do this, while he takes care of producing other things, perhaps services like child rearing, which help control inputs for others as well as, possibly, himself.

Once we have specialization we have people depending on each other for the control of their own inputs; cooperation is essential. This makes specialization somewhat risky; non-cooperation by those producing the food could mean loss of control of food input by those who are specializing in child care, for example. But apparently people are very good at cooperating, at least in their own tribal groups, so specialization probably got started very early in human evolution. I Small bands of humans were, thus, the first economies, from my perspective, with some people specializing in hunting, others in food preparation, others in child care, etc. At this point there was probably no need for bartering or money; with very little specialization it is probably easy to share the fruits of specialization; the food producer just shares food with the child raiser and doesn’t worry about how much child rearing is needed to get a certain amount of food. Anthropology might help at this point; it would be interesting to know whether there are small groups of people where there is some degree of specialization (division of labor) that allows individuals in the group to control for what they need (survive) without the need for barter or money.

So the essence of an economy, for me, is specialization, where each individual’s ability to control their inputs depends, to a certain extent, on what is produced by every other individual. An economy is interdependent or “collective” control by a group of individual control systems. The interdependence is required by specialization. The success of this kind of control depends on cooperation; sharing. If the people who makes the food won’t share with the people who take care of the kids, for example, then specialization won’t work; it is literally every man (and woman) for himself (controlling alone).

In my next episode I talk about where I think money fits in to an economy.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Awesome. Thank you for sharing Rick. I look forward to your next episode!

···

Shannon

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@GMAIL.COM wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.15.1240)]

Frank Lenk (2009.09.12.19:23 CDT)–

From that standpoint, I mainly sent the Davidson quotes along
because I hadn’t really thought about money in PCT terms before - as something
that provides a mechanism for maintaining homeostasis in a changing economic environment.
I was wondering if this way of viewing money made any sense to others with more
experience thinking in PCT (sometimes it feels like I am learning to think in a
new language, and I’m not sure I’m thinking properly yet).

Not having any training at all in economics I think I am in a perfect position to understand economics from a PCT perspective;-) I don’t think I would describe my view of money (from a PCT Perspective) as a “mechanism for maintaining homeostasis in a changing economic environment”. I view money as simply a convenient way to deal with the fact that production in most economies is specialized. But let me start from the beginning.
My ideas about economics start with imagining the simplest possible economy; a single individual human. I view this individual as an economy of one. Being a purposeful agent, this person acts to control its inputs, the most important being those that are necessary for survival: food, water, and oxygen, etc. These inputs are controlled relative to specifications that are set autonomously inside the controller himself. In order to control, say, water input, the controller must vary his actions appropriately (going to different locations to find filled streams, building a cistern to collect rain water, etc) to compensate for disturbances (dried up streams, drought periods, etc) and keep the water input at its specified level.
This control process embodies the main components of an economy: production and consumption. The controller is acting to produce the inputs it consumes. When averaged over time we can see that the controller is continuously producing and consuming inputs so as to keep the inputs at their specified level.

So the simplest economy is, from my perspective, the controlling done by an individual. The individual controller is both producer and consumer simultaneously. The controller is continuously varying his actions in order to produce inputs that are consumed at a rate that maintains these inputs (and the physiological consequences thereof) at the specified level.

At the level of the individual, then, economics is the same as psychology; it is simply the science of control. Economics separates from psychology once many individual controllers are involved. But it’s not just the number of controllers that matters;what maters is how these individuals organize themselves into societies of controllers. As Adam Smith points out, the most significant thing about an collection of humans that make up an economy is specialization in terms of production. From a control theory perspective, specialization means that now individuals in a group no longer produce everything they consume; part of each person’s controlling is done by others. The individual who used to control his food input by doing his own hunting, butchering and cooking now depends on others to do this, while he takes care of producing other things, perhaps services like child rearing, which help control inputs for others as well as, possibly, himself.

Once we have specialization we have people depending on each other for the control of their own inputs; cooperation is essential. This makes specialization somewhat risky; non-cooperation by those producing the food could mean loss of control of food input by those who are specializing in child care, for example. But apparently people are very good at cooperating, at least in their own tribal groups, so specialization probably got started very early in human evolution. I Small bands of humans were, thus, the first economies, from my perspective, with some people specializing in hunting, others in food preparation, others in child care, etc. At this point there was probably no need for bartering or money; with very little specialization it is probably easy to share the fruits of specialization; the food producer just shares food with the child raiser and doesn’t worry about how much child rearing is needed to get a certain amount of food. Anthropology might help at this point; it would be interesting to know whether there are small groups of people where there is some degree of specialization (division of labor) that allows individuals in the group to control for what they need (survive) without the need for barter or money.

So the essence of an economy, for me, is specialization, where each individual’s ability to control their inputs depends, to a certain extent, on what is produced by every other individual. An economy is interdependent or “collective” control by a group of individual control systems. The interdependence is required by specialization. The success of this kind of control depends on cooperation; sharing. If the people who makes the food won’t share with the people who take care of the kids, for example, then specialization won’t work; it is literally every man (and woman) for himself (controlling alone).

In my next episode I talk about where I think money fits in to an economy.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.17.1600)]

Awesome. Thank you for sharing Rick. I look forward to your next episode!
Thanks, Shannon. Since you like it then I will continue;-)
Now we move to the role of money in the economy. Keep in mind that the essence of an economy, from my point of view, is control. Individuals are acting to produce inputs that match their references for the inputs that they want to consume. Individuals control, a process that involves production (via control actions) and consumption (use of the inputs that are produced). When there is specialization, inputs that all individuals in a group want to consume to some degree are produced by only a small subset of these individuals. This means that all individuals in the group depend on each other, to some extent, to be able to control their own inputs.
What each individual depends on is having others – farmers, hunters, child rearers, cooks, etc – who specialize in producing certain inputs – grain, meat, care, food preparation, etc – provide the inputs the inputs they want that they don’t produce themselves. The obvious way for individuals to obtain (consume) the inputs they don’t produce themselves is to trade their own specially produced inputs for those produced by others. This exchange of inputs (goods and services that have been produced by different individuals in a group) is, of course, a market.
As I noted in my earlier post, the market for exchange of inputs in small groups can be very informal; like the informal exchanges that go on in a family group (you make dinner while I set the table) this wouldn’t even look like a market. Some people in the group just agree to specialize in producing one input (a service such as child care) while others agree to produce another (a good such as food). The child rearers take care of the kids while the hunters are out producing food, which they bring back and share with the child rearers. Despite the specialization – which (as Adam Smith noted) improves the ability to produce inputs but makes individuals dependent on others for producing some of the inputs they want to control – everyone is able to control their inputs successfully because there is cooperation.
True markets, where there is what I would call quantitative exchange of the goods and services produced through specialization, probably emerges as both specialization and the size of the economic group increases. I imagine that the first quantitative exchange markets involved barter, which simply means that each person would exchange some amount of the specialized things they produce for the specialized things that others produce. So the potter trades a pot for some amount of grain from the farmer and some amount of childcare from the caregiver; the farmer trades some amount of grain for the a pot and some childcare; and the caregiver trades some childcare for grain and pots. The amount each trades for each is determined by a “bid-ask” control process; the bidder has some reference amount (of his own product) that he is willing to pay and the asker has some amount (of his product) he wants to get. This interactive control process will generally converge to a point where the bidder pays about what he’s willing to pay and the asker gets close to what he wanted to get. This market process, then, determines what each product (of specialization) costs in terms of all the other products. It is quantitative in the sense that the cost of each good or service exchanged in the market can be measured in terms of the number of other goods and/or services needed to obtain it.

I imagine that the market process using barter would be somewhat cumbersome, especially when the goods and services to be traded are hard to subdivide. If a camel is worth 2 years of grain, 2 years of childcare or 10 ceramic pots, how do you use it to get the 6 mos of grain, 6 mos of childcare and 2 pots that are the inputs you actually want. The answer was money; a common medium of exchange that would let you “divide” the camel into smaller purchasing parts (monetary units). So if the camel is worth 1000 units 6 mos of grain is 250, 6 mos of childcare is 250 and 2 pots are 200. So if you can sell the camel for 1000 you can buy what you need and have 300 money units left over to get other stuff. Money itself is just a symbol for what things are worth in terms of what other things are worth. All that the money units themselves must be are relatively small (so it’s easy to carry or store many of them), durable (so that they don’t rot away) and hard to counterfeit (for obvious reasons). This is why gold is a good monetary medium; it has all these properties. It also has the property of being valued itself; this led to the belief that money itself must have value. But this is clearly not true as the success of paper money attests. It’s not really value that is needed but agreement (a reference or goal shared by all individuals) that whatever is used as money will be accepted in exchange for the goods and services produced by the group.

So, for me, money is just a convenient quantitative symbol for how much of one good or service is needed in exchange of another. The exchange rate – how may fractions of a camel are needed to but 6 mos of grain, for example – is determined by the market. How the market works seems to have been the main interest of economists. As a non-economist, I’m content to accept that the markets work (trough the bid-ask control process mentioned earlier). the market works in the sense that ahe “exchange rate” for goods and services is fairly constant over time (ignoring inflation and deflation for the moment). That is, the price of goods and services stays relatively constant over, save for the slow fluctuations resulting from inflation ot deflation). The market provides a fairly stable solution to the assignment of monetary value to different goods and services.

What is interesting to me about money is not so much how it gets it’s “value” (how the market works) but the fact that it is a way of dealing with specialization. Money facilities control of the inputs people want to consume but that they themselves have not necessarily produced. So money allows me to go to the market and buy the food I have not grown, take a ride in the airplane I have not built and fix the car that I can’t fix. I do this by getting paid money for the specialized goods and/or services that I produce. Again, an economy is, I believe, all about control; but it’s about that special kind of control where many of the inputs each individual is controlling for are produced by others. And money is just a means of facilitating this control.

The story would end there except that money introduced some interesting new capabilities and problems that have to be considered when trying to model an economy. I think the most dramatic new capability introduced by money is “time binding”, to use Korzybski’s felicitous phrase. In this context it may be better to call this “anticipatory control”. Unlike many of the goods and services that money can buy (such as food and paper plates), money doesn’t spoil (well, it can spoil people but the money itself stays the same). So it can be stored (saved). This saved money can then be used to time bind; it can be loaned to purchase goods and services now with the promise of payback in the future. This capability led to the development of what I believe is the basis of what we call a capitalist economy: a banking and financial sector. I’ll try to deal with this in the next episode.

Best

Rick

···

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Shannon Williams verbingle@gmail.com wrote:

Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

( Gavin
Ritz 2009.09.19.14.12NZT)

[From
Rick Marken (2009.09.17.1600)]

Awesome. Thank you for sharing Rick. I look forward to your
next episode!
Thanks, Shannon. Since you like it then I will continue;-)
Now we move to the role of money in the economy. Keep in mind that the essence
of an economy, from my point of view, is control. Individuals are acting to produce inputs that match their references
for the inputs that they want to consume.
Individuals control, a process that involves production (via control actions)
and consumption (use of the inputs that are produced). When there is
specialization, inputs that all individuals in a group want to consume to some
degree are produced by only a small subset of these individuals. This means
that all individuals in the group depend on each other, to some extent, to be
able to control their own inputs.

This is probably
the only difference that PCT adds to this whole note Rick

What each individual depends on is having others – farmers, hunters, child
rearers, cooks, etc – who specialize in producing certain inputs – grain,
meat, care, food preparation, etc – provide the inputs the inputs they
want that they don’t produce themselves. The obvious way for individuals to
obtain (consume) the inputs they don’t produce themselves is to trade
their own specially produced inputs for those produced by others. This exchange
of inputs (goods and services that have been produced by different individuals
in a group) is, of course, a market.

Yes and
what new have we learned here about markets and PCT.

As I noted in my earlier post, the market for exchange of inputs in small
groups can be very informal; like the informal exchanges that go on in a family
group (you make dinner while I set the table) this wouldn’t even look like a
market. Some people in the group just agree to specialize in producing one
input (a service such as child care) while others agree to produce another (a
good such as food). The child rearers take care of the kids while the hunters
are out producing food, which they bring back and share with the child rearers.
Despite the specialization – which (as Adam Smith noted) improves the ability
to produce inputs but makes individuals dependent on others for producing some
of the inputs they want to control – everyone is able to control their inputs
successfully because there is cooperation.
True markets, where there is what I would call quantitative
exchange of the goods and services produced through specialization, probably
emerges as both specialization and the size of the economic group increases. I
imagine that the first quantitative exchange markets involved barter,
which simply means that each person would exchange some amount of the
specialized things they produce for the specialized things that others produce.
So the potter trades a pot for some amount of grain from the farmer and some
amount of childcare from the caregiver; the farmer trades some amount of grain
for the a pot and some childcare; and the caregiver trades some childcare for
grain and pots. The amount each trades for each is determined by a
“bid-ask” control process; the bidder has some reference amount (of
his own product) that he is willing to pay and the asker has some amount (of
his product) he wants to get.

This
interactive control process will generally converge to a point where the bidder
pays about what he’s willing to pay and the asker gets close to what he wanted
to get. This market process, then, determines what each product (of
specialization) costs in terms of all the other products. It is quantitative in
the sense that the cost of each good or service exchanged in the market can be
measured in terms of the number of other goods and/or services needed to obtain
it.

You are
making a lot of standard economic assumptions about “price” that actually
may be incorrect.

I imagine that the market process using barter would be somewhat cumbersome,
especially when the goods and services to be traded are hard to subdivide. If a
camel is worth 2 years of grain, 2 years of childcare or 10 ceramic pots, how
do you use it to get the 6 mos of grain, 6 mos of childcare and 2 pots that are
the inputs you actually want. The answer was money; a common medium of exchange
that would let you “divide” the camel into smaller purchasing parts
(monetary units). So if the camel is worth 1000 units 6 mos of grain is
250, 6 mos of childcare is 250 and 2 pots are 200. So if you can sell the camel
for 1000 you can buy what you need and have 300 money units left over to get
other stuff. Money itself is just a symbol for what things are worth in terms
of what other things are worth. All that the money units themselves must be are
relatively small (so it’s easy to carry or store many of them), durable (so
that they don’t rot away) and hard to counterfeit (for obvious reasons). This
is why gold is a good monetary medium; it has all these properties. It also has
the property of being valued itself; this led to the belief that money itself
must have value. But this is clearly not true as the success of paper money
attests. It’s not really value that is needed but agreement (a reference or
goal shared by all individuals) that whatever is used as money will be accepted
in exchange for the goods and services produced by the group.

So, for me, money is just a convenient quantitative symbol for how much of one
good or service is needed in exchange of another.

Money’s
been around for thousands of years and been exchanging for that time and in other forms probably
been around for a few thousand more. The concept of value and money is more
that just exchange because you can use gold, cockle shells or even purple dye
in olden times.

Money is
a means of exchange, a store of value, a quantitative-qualitative converter, a value
in itself, named of the god of Moneta to do with instruction and uniqueness.

The
exchange rate – how may fractions of a camel are needed to but 6 mos of grain,
for example – is determined by the market. How the market works seems to have
been the main interest of economists. As a non-economist, I’m content to accept
that the markets work (trough the bid-ask control process mentioned earlier). the
market works in the sense that ahe “exchange rate” for goods and
services is fairly constant over time (ignoring inflation and
deflation for the moment).

That
is, the price of goods and services stays relatively constant over, save for
the slow fluctuations resulting from inflation ot deflation).

This is
totally incorrect. I steer you to Mandelbrot’s latest book (mis) behavior
of Markets. For a fractal look at the market prices, which show anything but stableness.
Mandelbrot has look at corn prices (amongst others) and it has shown massive
clustered volatity for long periods of time. Typical power laws. Just like the distribution of wealth through
the nation.

The
market provides a fairly stable solution to the assignment of monetary value to
different goods and services.

Oh no it
doesn’t.

What is interesting to me about money is not so much how it gets it’s
“value” (how the market works) but the fact that it is a way of
dealing with specialization. Money facilities control of the inputs people want
to consume but that they themselves have not necessarily produced. So money
allows me to go to the market and buy the food I have not grown, take a ride in
the airplane I have not built and fix the car that I can’t fix. I do this by
getting paid money for the specialized goods and/or services that I produce.

That’s
a bit trivial.

Again,
an economy is, I believe, all about control;

Interesting
concept. Control of whom, what and why?

but it’s
about that special kind of control

What exactly
is the special type of control?

where
many of the inputs each individual is controlling for are produced by others.
And money is just a means of facilitating this control.

Show me
how it works like this, ie control and money.

The story would end there except that money introduced some interesting new
capabilities and problems that have to be considered when trying to model an
economy. I think the most dramatic new capability introduced by money is “time
binding”, to use Korzybski’s felicitous phrase. In this context it may be
better to call this “anticipatory control”. Unlike many of the goods
and services that money can buy (such as food and paper plates), money doesn’t
spoil (well, it can spoil people but the money itself stays the same). So it
can be stored (saved). This saved money can then be used to time bind; it can
be loaned to purchase goods and services now with the promise of payback in the
future. This capability led to the development of what I believe is the basis
of what we call a capitalist economy: a banking and financial sector. I’ll try
to deal with this in the next episode.

Actually
have a look what Mandelbrot has to say about time dependence. Time effects
prices for varying periods.

Reagrds

Gavin

···

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Shannon Williams verbingle@gmail.com wrote:

[Shannon Williams 2009.09.18 23:55 CST]

(Gavin Ritz 2009.09.19.14.12NZT)

You are making a lot of standard economic assumptions
about �price� that actually may be incorrect.

Gavin, please describe a standard economic assumption about price that
Rick is making that may be wrong. We can use your description to
improve this view of economics.

The concept
of value and money is more that just exchange because you can use gold,
cockle shells or even purple dye in olden times.

Your sentence is generated because you have a reference linking 'value
and money'. This reference is preventing you from seeing what Rick is
saying. Now if you had a better grasp of PCT, you could talk about
this subject in PCT terms and sneak past that 'value/money' reference.
Then, when you returned to normal English, you would have a totally
different view of money.

Money is a means of exchange, a store of value, a quantitative-qualitative
converter, a value in itself, named of the god of Moneta to do with
instruction and uniqueness.

Come into the parlor where PCT is spoken, where nothing is relevant
except perceptions and how you control them. In that world you will
not be tempted to maintain references by stringing together a series
of nouns and then believe that you have described a 'reality'. ( How
can money(a concept that must be learned) be a store of value, a
quantitative-qualitative converter, a value in itself? You would
dictate some crazy laws trying to maintain this reference.)

That is, the price of goods and services stays relatively constant over,
save for the slow fluctuations resulting from inflation ot deflation).

This is totally incorrect.

Now if you would describe a standard economic assumption about price
that Rick is making that may be wrong, then we can improve Rick's
economic model. We can also observe how quickly Rick can incorporate
new concepts into his model when he is thinking in PCT, whereas, you
will be much slower (You will be slower until you convert of course.
After conversion, you may zip past us all).

Thanks,
Shannon

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.19.1010)]

Gavin
Ritz (2009.09.19.14.12NZT)

This means
that all individuals in the group depend on each other, to some extent, to be
able to control their own inputs.

This is probably
the only difference that PCT adds to this whole note Rick

OK.

This exchange
of inputs (goods and services that have been produced by different individuals
in a group) is, of course, a market.

Yes and
what new have we learned here about markets and PCT.

I didn’t really have anything new to saw about markets except that I assume their existence as price determiners.

You are
making a lot of standard economic assumptions about “price” that actually
may be incorrect.

My main interest in “price” is that it is possible to give consistent monetary values to goods and services. I don’t believe that these prices are necessarily “correct”; the price of many CEOs in the US is proof against that for me. But the fact is that consistent and stable monetary values are assigned to goods and services; just go to a supermarket several times in a month and note that the numbers (prices) associated with the different goods and services stay pretty much the same. That is the phenomenon that I was thinking of when I said that the market provides stable prices.

The concept of value and money is more
that just exchange because you can use gold, cockle shells or even purple dye
in olden times.

I don’t understand this at all. It seems to me that the fact that all these different things can be used as money demonstrates my point; that money is just a way of quantifying how much of this good or service can be exchanged for how much of that good or service. What more is involved?

Money is
a means of exchange, a store of value, a quantitative-qualitative converter, a value
in itself, named of the god of Moneta to do with instruction and uniqueness.

Actually, I said that money can be stored (because it doesn’t spoil); also, that it functions as a qualitative to quantitative converter.I think I also mentioned that what is used as money can be valued in itself (like gold) but that that is not essential to it’s role as money; and I did not know that money was named for the god Moneta; I thought it was Mammon.

That
is, the price of goods and services stays relatively constant over, save for
the slow fluctuations resulting from inflation ot deflation).

This is
totally incorrect.

Totally?

I steer you to Mandelbrot’s latest book (mis) behavior
of Markets. For a fractal look at the market prices, which show anything but stableness.
Mandelbrot has look at corn prices (amongst others) and it has shown massive
clustered volatity for long periods of time. Typical power laws. Just like the distribution of wealth through
the nation.

I know that there is volatility in markets like equities and commodities. I was thinking more about the “retail” markets, such as supermarkets and businesses. Prices are pretty stable in the former and salaries are pretty stable in the latter.

The
market provides a fairly stable solution to the assignment of monetary value to
different goods and services.

Oh no it
doesn’t.

I was talking about the market that determines the “retail” price of goods and services. My experience is that the variations in these variables are slow and smooth (they have generally been slowly increasing over the last 100 years or so).

Again,
an economy is, I believe, all about control;

Interesting
concept. Control of whom, what and why?

I explained that in my first installment. It is fundamental to my understanding of an economy. I will include a diagram in later episodes. For now, I’ll just saw that what is controlled for is input: the consumption of goods and services that are produced mainly by other controllers. So the controlled variables in an economy are “goods and services”; each individual in the economy has references for particular amounts and types of goods and services; and these individuals produce outputs (contribute to the production of some of these goods and services) in order to get the money to pay for the goods and services they want to consume.

but it’s
about that special kind of control

What exactly
is the special type of control?

As I said, what’s special about the controlling done in a highly specialized economy is that most of the goods and services consumed by any individual were not produced by that individual. So I control for consuming certain types and amounts of inputs – food, clothing, cars, housing, etc – none of which I have actually produced myself. I have contributed to the production of some of the things many people use (I’ve worked on the GPS satellite system, for example) but, by and large, the inputs I control for have been produced by others. So my ability to control for some inputs, like food, depends on some other person’s output – the farmer who grows the food, for example.

where
many of the inputs each individual is controlling for are produced by others.
And money is just a means of facilitating this control.

Show me
how it works like this, ie control and money.

I am doing this because I am working up to my version of a working model of the economy. I do want to show you how it works; I hope to have something working soon. Then you (and Bill and others) can throw tomatoes at it and have a better idea of what you are throwing the tomatoes at;-)

Actually
have a look what Mandelbrot has to say about time dependence. Time effects
prices for varying periods.

I will be looking at price variations at the macro level, where rapid price changes don’t seem to happen.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Taylor 2009.09.19.17.06]

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.17.1600)]

Awesome. Thank you for sharing Rick. I look forward to your next
episode!

Thanks, Shannon. Since you like it then I will continue;-)

For those who are interested, you might like to go to the CSG archives
at pctresources.com and check out the thread “PCT economics” that
started with [From Bill Powers (970330.0400 MST)]. Much of what Rick
has said recently, he said there. It is as valid now as it was then.
And for a little bit of self-advertisement, my contribution to that
thread can now be found on the Web at
.
It does not include Rick’s point about money permitting specialization,
but it should, and if I ever update it, it will.
See [From Dag Forssell (20090407 09:30 PST)] for access to
pctresources.com.
Martin

···

http://www.mmtaylor.net/Economics/econ/Table_of_Contents.html

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.19.1820 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2009.09.19.17.06 --

MT: my contribution to that thread can now be found on the Web at
<http://www.mmtaylor.net/Economics/econ/Table_of_Contents.html&gt;\.

BP: Nice -- and plausible -- story about how money came to be. There's one little passage that specially caught my eye:

"Finally, I give the farmer the buttons and retrieve my debt (which may or may not be on a piece of paper). I tear up the piece of paper ,if there was one, since it now refers to a non-existent debt."

But what if you receive some goods and write an IOU that says

"M. Taylor owes you the equivalent of ten gold sovereigns"

and then you die. Your estate now contains this IOU, and one of your heirs or creditors might accept the IOU as a portion of his or her fair share. Now the IOU never has to be torn up -- it can circulate as long as the paper lasts, which with care can be quite a long time. Trust is still required, but the money supply -- one of the M's, I presume -- has begin to attain a degree of permanence. The person to whom this debt is owed simply has to write it off or be willing to wait indefinitely until someone cashes it in.

You add, "... money is debt that is not paid off." We can append to that, "... and circulating money is money that will never be paid off." The original lender still has an asset on the books, and its counterpart has disappeared into unknown parts of the economy.

At any one time, there is some quantity of money in circulation, representing, as you say, debt that has not been paid off. But if all current "live" debts are paid off, there would still be circulating money because of all the debts that can never be paid off, including credit balances. I think this permanent and continually accumulating money is essential for allowing the economy to work. If all debts could actually be be paid off, all the money would disappear and the money-based part of the economy would have to start over, with the IOUs or barter.

There are some hitches in my story because trust has to include knowledge of the original lender who has to be known and eventually paid off. But suppose we introduce paper or gold money, one piece of which (unlike IOUs) can't be distinguished from another. Now when the debt is abandoned, the money has really disappeared; it is spent and gone and cannot be identified or recovered. Furthermore, if I hand you a dollar, you know it will be spendable because right on it is stated the government's pledge that this is good for the settlement of all debts public and private. You don't need to trust the person who hands you the dollar any more; you only need to trust the government.

So does this mean that the bed-rock basis of an expanding monetary economy is a sufficient rate of bankruptcy or other modes of business and private failures to repay debts?

Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2009.09.20.13.41]

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.19.1820 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2009.09.19.17.06 --

MT: my contribution to that thread can now be found on the Web at
<http://www.mmtaylor.net/Economics/econ/Table_of_Contents.html&gt;\.

BP: Nice -- and plausible -- story about how money came to be. There's one little passage that specially caught my eye:

"Finally, I give the farmer the buttons and retrieve my debt (which may or may not be on a piece of paper). I tear up the piece of paper ,if there was one, since it now refers to a non-existent debt."

But what if you receive some goods and write an IOU that says

"M. Taylor owes you the equivalent of ten gold sovereigns"

and then you die. Your estate now contains this IOU, and one of your heirs or creditors might accept the IOU as a portion of his or her fair share.

As a debit, I guess, since it means that the heir might some day have to find the equivalent of ten gold sovereigns when someone arrives with the actual IOU.

Now the IOU never has to be torn up -- it can circulate as long as the paper lasts, which with care can be quite a long time. Trust is still required, but the money supply -- one of the M's, I presume -- has begin to attain a degree of permanence. The person to whom this debt is owed simply has to write it off or be willing to wait indefinitely until someone cashes it in.

Why write it off? Why not pass it on to someone else in exchange for the promised equivalent of 10 gold sovereigns?

For the sake of further development of the argument, when we deal with necessary inflation, I should note that there might be some quibbles between the creditor and the debtor as to what might be equivalent to ten gold sovereigns. Each has his or her own perception of that value. But I won't pursue that here. There are a few steps in the argument before we get there.

You add, "... money is debt that is not paid off." We can append to that, "... and circulating money is money that will never be paid off." The original lender still has an asset on the books, and its counterpart has disappeared into unknown parts of the economy.

Why is that addition necessary? Nobody knows whether the debt inherent in the money will be paid off, so I think that my initial statement covers the whole concept of circulating money. It is debt that is still trusted but has not actually been paid off. If it was not trusted that the money could be used for trading, then it would not have trading value (I separate the money from its physical manifestation). If it is known that money debts have an appreciable likelihood of not being paid, then somebody who knows that will want to ask for more money than would be the case if they believed for sure that the debt would be paid. That's the point about bankruptcies and defaults feeding inflation. The credibility of the money in circulation is reduced by bankruptcies and defaults. Their direct effect is on money-for-future-money (credit) transactions, but their effects are on the perceived value of a money unit for trading.

At any one time, there is some quantity of money in circulation, representing, as you say, debt that has not been paid off. But if all current "live" debts are paid off,

What is a "live" debt here? What is a "dead" debt?

there would still be circulating money because of all the debts that can never be paid off, including credit balances.

What kind of a debt could never be paid off? How would you describe a credit balance in the scenario we are developing, in which the money comes from my promising Sam some future buttons in exchange for a present lawn mowing?

I think this permanent and continually accumulating money is essential for allowing the economy to work. If all debts could actually be be paid off, all the money would disappear and the money-based part of the economy would have to start over, with the IOUs or barter.

There are some hitches in my story because trust has to include knowledge of the original lender who has to be known and eventually paid off. But suppose we introduce paper or gold money, one piece of which (unlike IOUs) can't be distinguished from another. Now when the debt is abandoned, the money has really disappeared; it is spent and gone and cannot be identified or recovered. Furthermore, if I hand you a dollar, you know it will be spendable because right on it is stated the government's pledge that this is good for the settlement of all debts public and private. You don't need to trust the person who hands you the dollar any more; you only need to trust the government.

I disagree with this. What you have to trust is that someone with whom you want to trade will trust that the money you offer will be of sufficient value to make the trade worth doing. If that person finds that having the government say the money is good makes the money more trustworthy, well and good. But it depends on that person's trust in the government. Lots of communities past and present have issued their own money. It is valuable within the community, because many of the businesses have agreed to accept it in trade, and can use it themselves in local trade. It is of no value outside that particular community, because only people who trade in that community will accept it. English money is universally accepted in Scotland, but Scottish money is only accepted in England near the Scottish border and in a few other places. In Scotland, I happily accept Scottish banknotes issued by recognized banks (and allowed but not certified by the government), but not if I'm going to travel to England in the immediate future, despite that the Scottish banks (not the Scottish government) declare on their notes that the notes are legal tender (as they are).

So does this mean that the bed-rock basis of an expanding monetary economy is a sufficient rate of bankruptcy or other modes of business and private failures to repay debts?

I think you need a bit more analysis on this. The basis of my analysis is that money is acceptable in trade only if the seller thinks it can be passed on to buy something from someone else. Every bankruptcy and default reduces that trust and therefore reduces the value of money.

What is really meant by an expanding economy (I don't know what "monetary economy" means)? To me, it means an increase in the "affordances" that the economy provides for the control of the average person's perceptions. That's really what Rick is talking about when he says that money permits specialization. By doing something for which a person has effectively reorganized, that person can obtain money that permits him or her to control perceptions that would otherwise not be controllable. Money equals affordance, for the control of at least some perceptions. More money creates more affordances, but not linearly. That's why the value of a dollar to a millionaire is usually less than the value of a dollar to someone scraping by -- it doesn't change the affordances for the millionaire, but may allow the pauper to buy some bread, which otherwise would have to be stolen.

I don't know how this translates into "an expanding monetary economy".

Martin

(PS. I really mustn't be spending time on this, but it has been a long-time interest of mine, and it's very hard not to succumb to the addiction. I'm going to try to keep future interjections fewer and shorter. I may not succeed :-).

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.19.1233 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2009.09.20.13.41 --

BP earlier: You don't need to trust the person who hands you the dollar any more; you only need to trust the government.

MT: I disagree with this. What you have to trust is that someone with whom you want to trade will trust that the money you offer will be of sufficient value to make the trade worth doing.

BP: Read it again; I was talking about trusting the person who hands you the dollar and who now holds what you sold him. You now hold the dollar, and trust that the government will back up its "all debts private and public" pledge. If you offer that dollar to someone else, the government says the other person has to accept it in payment.

MT: If that person finds that having the government say the money is good makes the money more trustworthy, well and good.

BP: I don't think that's quite the meaning: the money is "legal tender" meaning that nobody can legally turn it down as part of the payment of what you owe. It doesn't matter whether the person to whom you offer the dollar trusts the government. It's the law.

BPO earlier:So does this mean that the bed-rock basis of an expanding monetary economy is a sufficient rate of bankruptcy or other modes of business and private failures to repay debts?

MT: I think you need a bit more analysis on this. The basis of my analysis is that money is acceptable in trade only if the seller thinks it can be passed on to buy something from someone else. Every bankruptcy and default reduces that trust and therefore reduces the value of money.

BP: I don't think that in the United States you can refuse legal tender in payment for anything you have contracted to sell. I don't know about other countries.

MT: What is really meant by an expanding economy (I don't know what "monetary economy" means)?

BP: It means an economy that uses money instead of barter or other means of exchange than money.

I see that I didn't express my main point clearly. When you borrow money, the bank puts it into your account and you can write checks on it. At the same time the bank creates an asset of equal value in its books. If you then cash a check for $1000 in bills and use that currency to buy something, and then default on the loan, there is no way the bank can get those bills back.
They've disappeared into the general circulation of money. All the bank can do is write off the debt as uncollectable. You're bankrupt and can't pay the loan off. Your assets are sold off for 15 cents on the dollar and the value of the loan is mostly lost.

But that new $1000 is now circulating around. It's in other people's accounts or wallets, indistinguishable from the rest of their money, and is being spent over and over as it moves.

As you know, that money came from nowhere: the bank created it when you borrowed the money. It began as an asset of the bank, but when it became a bad loan that asset lost its value. The bank hasn't really lost anything, but the bank's books don't balance until the bank writes off the loan. And that orphaned $1000 just goes on circulating.

I suspect that this has something to do with that "necessary inflation" that you talk about. If there were no defaults on debts or credit, and no new borrowing took place, all debts would eventually be paid off and all the money would disappear. Nobody would have any money to spend. We'd be back to barter. So I'm agreeing with you that debt is the basis of money. In fact with a growing population, a money supply in the form of unpaid debt has to increase to create enough money to hire the new people so they can buy the extra products they help make, and to enable them to buy it all. But that's not really inflation because it increases the number of dollars in circulation just sufficiently to pay the extra people and enable them to buy the increased production. There need be no inflationary effect on prices or wages.

I'm beginning to suspect that banking is just a formalized Ponzi scheme.

Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2009.09.20.17.35]

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.19.1233 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2009.09.20.13.41 --

BP earlier: You don't need to trust the person who hands you the dollar any more; you only need to trust the government.

MT: I disagree with this. What you have to trust is that someone with whom you want to trade will trust that the money you offer will be of sufficient value to make the trade worth doing.

BP: Read it again; I was talking about trusting the person who hands you the dollar and who now holds what you sold him. You now hold the dollar, and trust that the government will back up its "all debts private and public" pledge. If you offer that dollar to someone else, the government says the other person has to accept it in payment.

Yes, but the government doesn't say how much or how little he must accept. That's my point.

MT: If that person finds that having the government say the money is good makes the money more trustworthy, well and good.

BP: I don't think that's quite the meaning: the money is "legal tender" meaning that nobody can legally turn it down as part of the payment of what you owe. It doesn't matter whether the person to whom you offer the dollar trusts the government. It's the law.

Same comment.

BPO earlier:So does this mean that the bed-rock basis of an expanding monetary economy is a sufficient rate of bankruptcy or other modes of business and private failures to repay debts?

MT: I think you need a bit more analysis on this. The basis of my analysis is that money is acceptable in trade only if the seller thinks it can be passed on to buy something from someone else. Every bankruptcy and default reduces that trust and therefore reduces the value of money.

BP: I don't think that in the United States you can refuse legal tender in payment for anything you have contracted to sell. I don't know about other countries.

Same comment.

MT: What is really meant by an expanding economy (I don't know what "monetary economy" means)?

BP: It means an economy that uses money instead of barter or other means of exchange than money.

I see that I didn't express my main point clearly. When you borrow money, the bank puts it into your account and you can write checks on it. At the same time the bank creates an asset of equal value in its books.

Yes. The bank can lend it again, provided it trusts you implicitly to return the money eventually. And again. And again. As soon as somebody begins to question whether all these loans will actually be repaid, you get what happened last year. Bank failures when people ask for their money out of those accounts into which the bank placed the borrowed money.

If you then cash a check for $1000 in bills and use that currency to buy something, and then default on the loan, there is no way the bank can get those bills back.
They've disappeared into the general circulation of money. All the bank can do is write off the debt as uncollectable. You're bankrupt and can't pay the loan off. Your assets are sold off for 15 cents on the dollar and the value of the loan is mostly lost.

But that new $1000 is now circulating around. It's in other people's accounts or wallets, indistinguishable from the rest of their money, and is being spent over and over as it moves.

But is not perceived by sellers as being worth as much as the $1000 was worth initially.

I suspect that this has something to do with that "necessary inflation" that you talk about.

It does, but it's not the only factor in the "necessary inflation". In fact, I might partition the inflationary effects into useful and destructive, where useful serves to maintain the affordances that people have for controlling their perceptions, and destructive serves to reduce those affordances. Bankruptcies and defaults fall into the destructive category, increasing the need for useful inflation so as to sustain the general level of economic affordances. I haven't talked about useful inflation, but it's in the Bagno paper and the bachelor's essay I wrote in 1956 based on Bagno <http://www.mmtaylor.net/Economics/index.html&gt;\. Mind you, that WAS pre-PCT! But I think it's still correct in principle, if not in detail.

If there were no defaults on debts or credit, and no new borrowing took place, all debts would eventually be paid off and all the money would disappear. Nobody would have any money to spend. We'd be back to barter. So I'm agreeing with you that debt is the basis of money. In fact with a growing population, a money supply in the form of unpaid debt has to increase to create enough money to hire the new people so they can buy the extra products they help make, and to enable them to buy it all. But that's not really inflation because it increases the number of dollars in circulation just sufficiently to pay the extra people and enable them to buy the increased production. There need be no inflationary effect on prices or wages.

I think that's right.

I'm beginning to suspect that banking is just a formalized Ponzi scheme.

The only problem with a Ponzi scheme is that the population of potential investors is finite. When the scheme runs out of new investors, it collapses. With an infinite population, there would be no worries. Everyone would get rich from the scheme as it continued forever to gain new members. In the Ponzi scheme, once a member, that's it. You can be a new member if you are one already. In the monetary world, on the other hand, this isn't true. The fact you created the money once doesn't mean you can never do it again, so the population is effectively infinite.

The problem comes when you are dealing with individuals who have a finite lifetime and loans that have a finite term, not when you are dealing with whole populations who can borrow only from each other.

Martin

[From Frank Lenk 2009.09.20.22:55]

I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to participate in these conversations
after getting them started - I'm in the middle of two big projects at
work and they are eating all my spare time.

Until I can break free to respond with my own thoughts, I wanted to pass
along an old article (1913, I think) that according to my macroeconomics
professor is one of the best articles ever written on money. It starts
with the standard story economists tell about money, discusses what is
known from archeological records to show that much of that story is
historically inaccurate, then describes the true nature of money
beginning on the middle of page 390. Perhaps the information contained
can provide useful insight for creating a PCT-based theory of money.

Frank

Innes - What is money.pdf (2.22 MB)

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Taylor
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 1:13 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: [CSGNET] money and PCT

[Martin Taylor 2009.09.20.13.41]

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.19.1820 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2009.09.19.17.06 --

MT: my contribution to that thread can now be found on the Web at
<http://www.mmtaylor.net/Economics/econ/Table_of_Contents.html&gt;\.

BP: Nice -- and plausible -- story about how money came to be. There's

one little passage that specially caught my eye:

"Finally, I give the farmer the buttons and retrieve my debt (which
may or may not be on a piece of paper). I tear up the piece of paper
,if there was one, since it now refers to a non-existent debt."

But what if you receive some goods and write an IOU that says

"M. Taylor owes you the equivalent of ten gold sovereigns"

and then you die. Your estate now contains this IOU, and one of your
heirs or creditors might accept the IOU as a portion of his or her
fair share.

As a debit, I guess, since it means that the heir might some day have to

find the equivalent of ten gold sovereigns when someone arrives with the

actual IOU.

Now the IOU never has to be torn up -- it can circulate as long as the

paper lasts, which with care can be quite a long time. Trust is still
required, but the money supply -- one of the M's, I presume -- has
begin to attain a degree of permanence. The person to whom this debt
is owed simply has to write it off or be willing to wait indefinitely
until someone cashes it in.

Why write it off? Why not pass it on to someone else in exchange for the

promised equivalent of 10 gold sovereigns?

For the sake of further development of the argument, when we deal with
necessary inflation, I should note that there might be some quibbles
between the creditor and the debtor as to what might be equivalent to
ten gold sovereigns. Each has his or her own perception of that value.
But I won't pursue that here. There are a few steps in the argument
before we get there.

You add, "... money is debt that is not paid off." We can append to
that, "... and circulating money is money that will never be paid
off." The original lender still has an asset on the books, and its
counterpart has disappeared into unknown parts of the economy.

Why is that addition necessary? Nobody knows whether the debt inherent
in the money will be paid off, so I think that my initial statement
covers the whole concept of circulating money. It is debt that is still
trusted but has not actually been paid off. If it was not trusted that
the money could be used for trading, then it would not have trading
value (I separate the money from its physical manifestation). If it is
known that money debts have an appreciable likelihood of not being paid,

then somebody who knows that will want to ask for more money than would
be the case if they believed for sure that the debt would be paid.
That's the point about bankruptcies and defaults feeding inflation. The
credibility of the money in circulation is reduced by bankruptcies and
defaults. Their direct effect is on money-for-future-money (credit)
transactions, but their effects are on the perceived value of a money
unit for trading.

At any one time, there is some quantity of money in circulation,
representing, as you say, debt that has not been paid off. But if all
current "live" debts are paid off,

What is a "live" debt here? What is a "dead" debt?

there would still be circulating money because of all the debts that
can never be paid off, including credit balances.

What kind of a debt could never be paid off? How would you describe a
credit balance in the scenario we are developing, in which the money
comes from my promising Sam some future buttons in exchange for a
present lawn mowing?

I think this permanent and continually accumulating money is essential

for allowing the economy to work. If all debts could actually be be
paid off, all the money would disappear and the money-based part of
the economy would have to start over, with the IOUs or barter.

There are some hitches in my story because trust has to include
knowledge of the original lender who has to be known and eventually
paid off. But suppose we introduce paper or gold money, one piece of
which (unlike IOUs) can't be distinguished from another. Now when the
debt is abandoned, the money has really disappeared; it is spent and
gone and cannot be identified or recovered. Furthermore, if I hand you

a dollar, you know it will be spendable because right on it is stated
the government's pledge that this is good for the settlement of all
debts public and private. You don't need to trust the person who hands

you the dollar any more; you only need to trust the government.

I disagree with this. What you have to trust is that someone with whom
you want to trade will trust that the money you offer will be of
sufficient value to make the trade worth doing. If that person finds
that having the government say the money is good makes the money more
trustworthy, well and good. But it depends on that person's trust in the

government. Lots of communities past and present have issued their own
money. It is valuable within the community, because many of the
businesses have agreed to accept it in trade, and can use it themselves
in local trade. It is of no value outside that particular community,
because only people who trade in that community will accept it. English
money is universally accepted in Scotland, but Scottish money is only
accepted in England near the Scottish border and in a few other places.
In Scotland, I happily accept Scottish banknotes issued by recognized
banks (and allowed but not certified by the government), but not if I'm
going to travel to England in the immediate future, despite that the
Scottish banks (not the Scottish government) declare on their notes that

the notes are legal tender (as they are).

So does this mean that the bed-rock basis of an expanding monetary
economy is a sufficient rate of bankruptcy or other modes of business
and private failures to repay debts?

I think you need a bit more analysis on this. The basis of my analysis
is that money is acceptable in trade only if the seller thinks it can be

passed on to buy something from someone else. Every bankruptcy and
default reduces that trust and therefore reduces the value of money.

What is really meant by an expanding economy (I don't know what
"monetary economy" means)? To me, it means an increase in the
"affordances" that the economy provides for the control of the average
person's perceptions. That's really what Rick is talking about when he
says that money permits specialization. By doing something for which a
person has effectively reorganized, that person can obtain money that
permits him or her to control perceptions that would otherwise not be
controllable. Money equals affordance, for the control of at least some
perceptions. More money creates more affordances, but not linearly.
That's why the value of a dollar to a millionaire is usually less than
the value of a dollar to someone scraping by -- it doesn't change the
affordances for the millionaire, but may allow the pauper to buy some
bread, which otherwise would have to be stolen.

I don't know how this translates into "an expanding monetary economy".

Martin

(PS. I really mustn't be spending time on this, but it has been a
long-time interest of mine, and it's very hard not to succumb to the
addiction. I'm going to try to keep future interjections fewer and
shorter. I may not succeed :-).

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.21.0900)]

Frank Lenk (2009.09.20.22:55)

Until I can break free to respond with my own thoughts, I wanted to pass

along an old article (1913, I think) that according to my macroeconomics

professor is one of the best articles ever written on money.

I like it! It seems completely consistent with my (naively derived) view of money as a symbol representing the exchange value of goods and services. It certainly is consistent with my idea that money need have no intrinsic “value” at all; paper and computer bits work as well as (or better than) gold. I was focusing mainly on the “price” aspect of money; the article makes the important point (which will be very important for modeling, I think) that the money itself is a claim on goods; an IOU or “credit”. So $100 is a claim on $100 worth of the goods and services produced by the economy. The market has put a price tag on all goods and services (that are available for exchange) so my $100 means that I can scoop up goods and services with a total price of no more than $100. And when I hand my money to the people from whom I purchase the goods and services, they are now getting IOUs that they can use to exchange for the goods and services. So money is a symbol for goods that have not yet been consumed. But that creates a problem; when I spend my money (consume products) the money doesn’t get consumed, too; it goes to the person who provided me with the goods/services. That person now has money representing goods/services that no longer exist; this money can be used to get new goods and services; but how do we know they are there? This is a problem I never considered. Yikes. I must be making some kind of elementary mistake here. What gives?

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (21009.09.21.1200 MDT)]

Frank Lenk 2009.09.20.22:55 --

Many thanks for that article by Innes, "What is Money?" Reducing money to credit and debit, and the techniques for keeping track of them, make the whole subject transparent. I won't say that Innes makes them easier to understand; it will take me quite a while to sort out all those A's and B's transferring their credits to C and understand exactly how it works out. But the underlying principle is so simple that even I can understand it.

Obviously, the Innes article has not been required reading for economists or those in business schools, though it should be. It's so clear that circulating money can be in any form at all, divorced from its physical properties! The amount of money that should be available is set by production and consumption, not the other way around. That's only to say that the credit-debit books ought to balance. If they don't -- if there is either too little or too much money -- then somebody must be doing something up in the financial superstructure to mess up the system.

I'm trying to achieve some simplifications like those that Innes generated. I don't suppose I will be listened to any more readily than he was.

Best,

Bill P.

Innes says that to get the credit, we first have sell something –
our labor, or our property, something. So, in general, we have to produce
something first to get money. So insufficient production is not typically the
problem. The problem arises when you decide not to spend your money, but hang
on to it, say because of uncertainty about the future. Then there is
production “out there” but insufficient money to buy it all back,
which can then cause difficulties for you the next time you want to sell your
production – no one may want it if what is already produced is not being
bought.

Frank

···

From: Control Systems
Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard
Marken
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:59 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: [CSGNET] money and PCT

[From Rick Marken
(2009.09.21.0900)]

Frank Lenk (2009.09.20.22:55)

Until I can break free to respond with my own thoughts, I wanted to pass
along an old article (1913, I think) that according to my macroeconomics
professor is one of the best articles ever written on money.

I like it! It seems completely consistent with my (naively derived) view of
money as a symbol representing the exchange value of goods and services.
It certainly is consistent with my idea that money need have no intrinsic
“value” at all; paper and computer bits work as well as (or better
than) gold. I was focusing mainly on the “price” aspect of money; the
article makes the important point (which will be very important for modeling, I
think) that the money itself is a claim on goods; an IOU or “credit”.
So $100 is a claim on $100 worth of the goods and services produced by the
economy. The market has put a price tag on all goods and services (that are
available for exchange) so my $100 means that I can scoop up goods and services
with a total price of no more than $100. And when I hand my money to the people
from whom I purchase the goods and services, they are now getting IOUs that
they can use to exchange for the goods and services. So money is a symbol for
goods that have not yet been consumed. But that creates a problem; when I spend
my money (consume products) the money doesn’t get consumed, too; it goes to the
person who provided me with the goods/services. That person now has money
representing goods/services that no longer exist; this money can be used to get
new goods and services; but how do we know they are there? This is a problem I
never considered. Yikes. I must be making some kind of elementary mistake here.
What gives?

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com