Monitoring systems

CSGnet Archive CSG2012
1

[From Rupert Young 2012.04.24 12.10 BST]

There are many situations that, on the face of it, appear to be discrete stimulus-response events where a perception triggers action. Examples include a frog shooting out its tongue to catch a fly that appears in his field of view, or a hitch-hiker sticking out its thumb when a car approaches.

In PCT terms we may envisage that monitoring control systems exist that don't do anything until an environmental event occurs. But what is actually happening in practice? In the hitch-hiker example is there a control unit controlling the relationship between the thumb and car? Until the car appears is it in a state of error? Or is its reference changed to something that can be controlled when the car appears which somehow "triggering" this change (via a higher-level system)?

Any help appreciated?

···

--

Regards,
Rupert

2

[From Richard Kennaway (2012.04.24:1224 BST)]

[From Rupert Young 2012.04.24 12.10 BST]

There are many situations that, on the face of it, appear to be discrete
stimulus-response events where a perception triggers action. Examples
include a frog shooting out its tongue to catch a fly that appears in
his field of view, or a hitch-hiker sticking out its thumb when a car
approaches.

In PCT terms we may envisage that monitoring control systems exist that
don't do anything until an environmental event occurs. But what is
actually happening in practice? In the hitch-hiker example is there a
control unit controlling the relationship between the thumb and car?
Until the car appears is it in a state of error? Or is its reference
changed to something that can be controlled when the car appears which
somehow "triggering" this change (via a higher-level system)?

Any help appreciated?

I'll have a go.

The hitchhiker wants a lift. The control system for getting a lift initiates the following rule: when a car is approaching, try to flag it down; when there is no car, don't bother. That control system and the lower-level systems responsible for executing that rule in terms of signals to the muscles are not experiencing any substantial error. Whether a car is coming and the hand is up, or there is no car and the hand is down, everything is as it is intended to be.

At the level of wanting a lift, the error of not having one will continue generating that rule until a lift is obtained. Or if that takes inordinately long, the hitchhiker will start doing something else to achieve his higher-level goal of getting to his destination by any means possible -- walking on, trying a better place, or whatever.

···

--
Richard Kennaway, jrk@cmp.uea.ac.uk, Richard Kennaway
School of Computing Sciences,
University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.

3

[From Rupert Young 2012.04.24 18.10 BST]

[Richard Kennaway (2012.04.24:1224 BST)]
I'll have a go.

Thanks.

The hitchhiker wants a lift. The control system for getting a lift initiates the following rule: when a car is approaching, try to flag it down; when there is no car, don't bother. That control system and the lower-level systems responsible for executing that rule in terms of signals to the muscles are not experiencing any substantial error. Whether a car is coming and the hand is up, or there is no car and the hand is down, everything is as it is intended to be.

There are, I think, only two perceptions involved (for modelling purposes), the car and the thumb, the former is an uncontrolled perception. So, in terms of the control units and their functions, is the car perception an input to the same unit as the thumb control unit or to a higher unit which, in turn, sets the reference for the thumb unit?

At the level of wanting a lift, the error of not having one will continue generating that rule until a lift is obtained. Or if that takes inordinately long, the hitchhiker will start doing something else to achieve his higher-level goal of getting to his destination by any means possible -- walking on, trying a better place, or whatever.

How does an error signal transform to a rule for the lower level reference? Or perhaps I am asking how can we represent these signals and rules in a model; spreadsheet or otherwise?

···

--

Regards,
Rupert

4

[From Lloyd Klinedinst 2012.04.24 17.42 EST]

I regularly scan CSGnet emails, less regularly read those that interest me, and rarely post something to CSGnet.

Because I’m now helping someone become acquainted with the hierarchy for a presentation in a college class. He is working on his MPhil in psychology.

My remaining comments [in brackets] occur after the lines of Rupert’s reply to Richard’s reply to Rupert’s initial email:

[From Rupert Young 2012.04.24 18.10 BST]

[Richard Kennaway (2012.04.24:1224 BST)]
I’ll have a go.

Thanks.

The hitchhiker wants a lift. The control system for getting a lift initiates the following rule: when a car is approaching, try to flag it down; when there is no car, don’t bother. That control system and the lower-level systems responsible for executing that rule in terms of signals to the muscles are not experiencing any substantial error. Whether a car is coming and the hand is up, or there is no car and the hand is down, everything is as it is intended to be.

There are, I think, only two perceptions involved (for modelling purposes), the car and the thumb, the former is an uncontrolled perception. So, in terms of the control units and their functions, is the car perception an input to the same unit as the thumb control unit or to a higher unit which, in turn, sets the reference for the thumb unit?

[I think it is much more complex. The challenge for modeling seems to me to make it simple but not too simple - this in the face of the complexity of HPCT and nearly innumerable CSs (control loops).

As I see it, the car and thumb perceptions are at the concept level as part of the hierarchy of control to get a ride. The former concept as a memory and, it is hoped, a passing perception. The other readily available as a perception at arm’s length. As such they are part of some of the subordinate loops to the program and sequence loops controlling for a system concept of locomotion(?) The same two perceptual objects are also RSs at the concept level taking part in the downward section of the hierarchically looped behavior of controlling for getting a ride, eventually and hopefully resulting in the effect of getting a ride.]

At the level of wanting a lift, the error of not having one will continue generating that rule until a lift is obtained. Or if that takes inordinately long, the hitchhiker will start doing something else to achieve his higher-level goal of getting to his destination by any means possible – walking on, trying a better place, or whatever.

How does an error signal transform to a rule for the lower level reference? Or perhaps I am asking how can we represent these signals and rules in a model; spreadsheet or otherwise?

[So for me the challenge is to thumb through the thousands of hierarchical loops and networks, identify the centrally participant loops in numbers small enough to model, and then we have this hitchhiking ‘control systems unit’ under our PCT thumb.]

–

Regards,
Rupert

Best to all,

Lloyd

Dr. Lloyd Klinedinst
10 Dover Lane
Villa Ridge, MO 63089-2001
HomeVoice: (636) 451-3232

Lloyd Mobile: (314)-609-5571
email: lloydk@klinedinst.com

website: http://www.klinedinst.com

···

On Apr 24, 2012, at 1:21 PM, Rupert Young wrote:

5

[From Rupert Young 2012.04.26 22.20 BST]

[From Lloyd Klinedinst 2012.04.24 17.42 EST]

          [So

for me the challenge is to thumb through the thousands of
hierarchical loops and networks, identify the centrally
participant loops in numbers small enough to model, and
then we have this hitchhiking ‘control systems unit’ under
our PCT thumb.]

Yes, one of the great things about PCT, I think, is that control

units, or small sets thereof, can be picked out modelled
independently of the complexities of the overall system. That’s the
point I am trying to get to here by just focussing on just enough
units to model the functionality described.

··· 

-- Regards,
Rupert