Monkeys of the world unite [and evolve again finally?]

Respectful greetings all,

Striving both for my own interest and the (established?) higher purpose of this forum, in what ways (now?), hopefully without further "degradation?" of forum decorum, SHALL everyone (CONTROL and..) BENEFIT FROM these typical antagonistic(?) displays? [Herein lies the central curiosities of this lurker and cautious armchair amateur. ..who can only hope it deserves & captures the interest of ALL experts present, if only within a more appropriate (referred or offline?) forum..]

- What behavioral insights can be identified / reduced within this forum's current and recent posts via the existing or derived terminology of PCT (&or other theories & findings) [to which this author is yet unable to refer]?

- Are their any useful deconstructions and comparisons between the meanings of "Debate" and "Antagonism" and related social behaviors?

- Have their been any studies attempting to establish the (BOUNDARIES of any?) constructive value from "more antagonistic" behavior, presumably as it relates to known & useful personality, preferential, &or productivity profiles? [Implied: If this topic misses or fades herein, I'm asking at minimum how & where specifically might any readers (esp this neophyte, outside of any formal academic curricula) begin to find (rich?) materials for such personal research?]

- In the personal opinions of all ready & present contributors, both at your self-aware (primitive?) perceptual level and perhaps at any "higher aspirational" level you may embrace, to what extent can/do "identifiable levels of antagonism" contribute constructively to the underlying (overly trampled doormat?) "mission of academic debate"?

- To whatever extent that PCT (&or ANY theories) SUCCEED to describe "antagonistic" social systems (esp within and to the growing(?) opinion of academic cultures), how & where might the element of Self-Recognition (or the lack thereof) apply within identifiable behavior profiles?
-- ..and to open a real bait-box, to what extent could/do any such general "understandings" be directly & effectively applied within non-academic social systems, such as corporations, secondary schools, parenting principals, and need-based relationship counseling?

- Have any readers here (knowingly) participated in or contributed to any research even loosely related to this context?

- To what degree might any readers here be interested in finding, starting, or contributing to research related to this context? [I'm not such a researcher, I'm a "wannabe"; I might enjoy finding a worthy (family-providing) vocation in such -- whether & HOW at this point in my life is the overwhelming question.. :-? ]

Please pardon (& refer me as possible) if my overly(?) general & open-ended questions far exceed the scope & majority interest of this fascinating(!) forum.

..Thanks, from a bold but fairness-&-"evolution"-seeking, cow-respecting, "cooperator"-monkey dieting moderately in your "village pasture"..

Warm & (candidly) sincere regards,
:-jim Beardsley
Columbus Ohio

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[From Rick Marken (2003.10.01.1045)]

Jim Beardsley wrote:

Hi Jim. Welcome to CSGNet.

Striving both for my own interest and the (established?) higher purpose of this forum, in what ways (now?), hopefully without further "degradation?" of forum decorum, SHALL everyone (CONTROL and..) BENEFIT FROM these typical antagonistic(?) displays? [Herein lies the central curiosities of this lurker and cautious armchair amateur. ..who can only hope it deserves & captures the interest of ALL experts present, if only within a more appropriate (referred or offline?) forum..]

That's a very complicated question. But I think it has a fairly simple (though very general and possibly uninformative) answer: individuals will benefit from these "antagonistic displays" to the extent that these displays produce results that are what each individual wants.

- What behavioral insights can be identified / reduced within this forum's current and recent posts via the existing or derived terminology of PCT (&or other theories & findings) [to which this author is yet unable to refer]?

If there are any insights that come from recent posts (how recent?) it would come from their contribution to understanding the PCT model and how it applies to actual behavior.

- Are their any useful deconstructions and comparisons between the meanings of "Debate" and "Antagonism" and related social behaviors?

I think so. But I think it would be a good exercise for you to do these "deconstructions" yourself once you've learned PCT.

- Have their been any studies attempting to establish the (BOUNDARIES of any?) constructive value from "more antagonistic" behavior, presumably as it relates to known & useful personality, preferential, &or productivity profiles? [Implied: If this topic misses or fades herein, I'm asking at minimum how & where specifically might any readers (esp this neophyte, outside of any formal academic curricula) begin to find (rich?) materials for such personal research?]

I don't think you will find any such studies in the PCT literature, such as it is. PCT focuses on individuals. Personality profiles tend to look at people statistically -- in terms of standard scores and the like.

- In the personal opinions of all ready & present contributors, both at your self-aware (primitive?) perceptual level and perhaps at any "higher aspirational" level you may embrace, to what extent can/do "identifiable levels of antagonism" contribute constructively to the underlying (overly trampled doormat?) "mission of academic debate"?

"Antagonism" is a perceived aspect of human behavior, like "fairness" and "honesty". PCT explains (or tries to explain) why we might see these aspects of behavior. Antagonism, for example, could be a controlled variable or a side effect of the way certain variables are controlled. Which (if either) of these explanations of "antagonism" is correct is then a matter for test. We'd have to know what "antagonism" is, I believe, before we could start trying to answer the other
question: does antagonism contribute to academic debate? If antagonism turns out to be a side effect of some other control process, this question may no longer make sense.

- To whatever extent that PCT (&or ANY theories) SUCCEED to describe "antagonistic" social systems (esp within and to the growing(?) opinion of academic cultures), how & where might the element of Self-Recognition (or the lack thereof) apply within identifiable behavior profiles?
-- ..and to open a real bait-box, to what extent could/do any such general "understandings" be directly & effectively applied within non-academic social systems, such as corporations, secondary schools, parenting principals, and need-based relationship counseling?

Both these questions depend on the answer to what antagonism is, from a PCT perspective. My guess is that antagonism is what we call certain kinds of interpersonal conflict. It's a side effect of two or more control systems trying to keep the same perception in two different states. If that's the case, then self recognition might have something to do with "up a level" in PCT, where self recognition would be the ability to become conscious of the fact that you are _in_ a
conflict and (next level up) _why_ you are in it. In this sense, self recognition is the only way to "solve" conflicts. If this understanding of conflicts is correct I think there are many obvious ways that it could be applied in the settings you mentioned. Some people are already applying it to some of these situations.

- Have any readers here (knowingly) participated in or contributed to any research even loosely related to this context?

I have done some research on conflict but that's about it.

Please pardon (& refer me as possible) if my overly(?) general & open-ended questions far exceed the scope & majority interest of this fascinating(!) forum.

I think questioning is fine. But I think your questioning might yield better results if you first studied some PCT. I humbly recommend my Mind Readings site (www.mindreadings.com) as a good place to start for books, demos and internet sites on PCT.

..Thanks, from a bold but fairness-&-"evolution"-seeking, cow-respecting, "cooperator"-monkey dieting moderately in your "village pasture".

Thank you.

Best regards

Rick

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--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
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Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org