More talk about emotions

[From Bill Powers (2009.11.21.0645 MDT)]
There have been a few recent offline discussions of emotion, with
references to Plutchik’s taxonomy and Solomon’s “opponent
process” “theory” of emotion which is really just another
taxonomy. I was reminded of another sort of taxonomy and looked it up on
the web (of course):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trobriand_Islands
"Particularly interesting and unique to the Trobriand Islands
are the linguistic aspect of the indigenous language,

Kilivila
. Drawing upon earlier work by
Bronislaw
Malinowski
,
Dorothy D.
Lee
’s scholarly writings refer to “non-lineal codifications of
reality.” In such a linguistic system, the concept of linear
progress of time, geometric shapes, and even conventional methods of
description are lost altogether or altered. In her example of a specific
indigenous yam, Lee explains that when the yam moves from a state of
sprouting to ripeness to over-ripeness, the name for each object in a
specific state changes entirely. This is because the description of the
object at different states of development are perceived as wholly
different objects
[what horrible English]*. Ripeness is considered
a “defining ingredient” and thus once it becomes over-ripe, it
is a new object altogether. The same perception pertains to time and
geometric shapes."*I have seen a passage from Malinowski in which he details over 100
words for yams which, as Lee says, are treated as if each one is a new
object, though we would say it is really just the same vegetable in
different states of growth, preparation, tastiness, health, and
appearance. We reduce the huge taxonomy to a few independent dimensions
of perception, from which a continuum of different combinations could be
derived and any number of arbitrary taxonomic categories could be
created, if we saw any point in doing that.

We, of course, do the same thing, only when we do it we don’t refer to it
as a primitive, strange, or excessive sort of behavior. Consider the
names of colors. Is there really an independently-existing unique color
such as chartreuse? Is a point on the color chart given that name really
a new object altogether relative to the color one millimeter away from it
in any direction on the chart? Or are we, as we would say the Trobriand
Islanders are, simply dividing a continuum into arbitrary areas and
saying that each area is something unique and different? What about the
notes of a musical scale called do re mi etc, or the range of different
taste or smell combinations we can identify and represent as a name, or
the sizes of shirts which come in small, medium, and large, or the
continuous spectrum of attitudes which, by drawing a single line through
it, we divide into extrovert and introvert and many other equally
arbitrary classifications, many of which probably overlap? I understand
that there is a similar problem with various ways of defining a species.
We are not all that different from the inhabitants of those
islands.

Opening up an old Roget’s thesaurus (acquired at least 50 years ago and
belonging, actually, to my late friend Kirk Sattley) I find the following
terms associated with “angry:” [raging or] enraged, irritated,
incensed,annoyed, infuriated, furious, wrathful, indigant, irate,
followed by “see resentment” under which we have animosity,
choler, indignation, exasperation, vexation, irascibility, bitterness,
virulence, dudgeon, and hatred, to pick just a few from the first inch of
five inches of other names and variations on names found on this page
under “resentment”.

Surely that almost outdoes the Trobriand Islander’s vocabulary for yams.
Is there really a distinct, separate, unique emotion to go with each of
these terms? Clearly not. These are points or areas in a continuum, and
the question then becomes that of defining the dimensions of this
continuum.

Rather than add another arbitrary classification scheme to those that
already exist, I suggest that it’s appropriate here to look at this
problem from the PCT point of view. Classifications or categories are a
specific level of perception in PCT, at least as I have proposed it. A
classification can be created simply by grouping any arbitrary set of
perceptions together and saying they belong to and are examples of the
same category – for instance, the category of objects, habits, physical
attributes, and credit scores that are “mine.” By this way of
defining what we mean by a category, we PCTers would say that an emotion
is any set of overt or suppressed actions connected to real or imagined
bodily sensations perceived as relationships, events, transitions,
configurations, sensations, or intensities – all the levels below the
category level. That gives us an enormous range of discriminable
emotions, limited in number only by our need for yet more words with
which to communicate our states of body and mind. The thesaurus only
scratches the surface of this quarryful of rocks (where “rock”
is defined as any small separated volume of the material in the
quarry).

I have proposed (as others have before me) that an emotion is a perceived
combination of an action (or effect of an action) and a perception of the
state of the body. I’ve also used the term “goal” in place of
“action,” but now think that action or effect of action is the
more general term: if we only imagine the action or its effect (as when a
conflict or some other circumstance keeps us from carrying it out), we
call that a goal.

So how many dimensions does this definition include? Suppose there are
six independently variable states of the body that can be sensed. If we
can discriminate each state only in terms of absent or present, that
gives us 32 different configurations of bodily sensations. Identifying as
emotional four types of goal, such as attack, conceal, seek help, and
avoid, each also either present or absent, brings the total to 2^10 or
1024 different emotions. If we permit finer gradations than the binary
present/absent along each dimension, the number of different emotions
increases very rapidly into the hundreds of thousands or millions – far
more than we have any use for. And finally, adding the six levels of
perception below categories, and all the variations possible at each
level, we bring the number of emotions, for all practical purposes, to
infinity.

Of course we don’t use that many categories or discriminate that finely.
We use emotion-names to refer to roughly similar constellations of
feeling and action that often occur together at particular levels of
perception, mostly to let other people know what is going on inside of
us. “I could just murder that kid, I’m so upset with her” we
say, and other parents know what we mean. We say what we want to do and
how it feels when we want to do it. In fact, what we actually say when we
don’t just use a category-name such as “angry” is much more
informative than the name of the emotion.

I therefore make a modest proposal: let’s all stop using emotion-names,
and instead communicate what is wanted and what feelings go with the
cognitive reference level. So instead of saying “You’re annoying
me,” we would say “I do wish you wouldn’t talk that way, but
I’m not very upset about it.” That conveys much more clearly what
I’m feeling and what I want than does the phrase “mildly
annoyed.”

I don’t suppose that the world will change its linguistic habits just
because of my theory of emotion, but I sometimes wish more than a little
that it would.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Abbott
(2009.11.21.1235 EST]

Bill Powers (2009.11.21.0645
MDT) –

BP: There have been a few recent offline
discussions of emotion, with references to Plutchik’s taxonomy and Solomon’s
“opponent process” “theory” of emotion which is really just
another taxonomy.

Just a quick comment before I get back to torturing myself with
book revisions: Solomon & Corbit’s “opponent process”
theory of emotion is not a taxonomy, it is a description of the behavior of a
really sluggish control system. The diagram below shows the “a”
process (the controlled variable, which produces the emotional experience when
it is in a state of error) and the “b” process, which is the
negative feedback output of the control system that opposes the disturbance to
the “a” process. Not shown is the disturbance, which begins just
prior to the point where the a-process line begins its negative-exponential
rise and ends as the point where the a-process line begins its negative-exponential
decay. The b-process is assumed to be “recruited” by repeated presentations
of the disturbance (becoming stronger with repetition) and to be sluggish: it
begins after a delay following the change in the a-process and begins to weaken
at some delay after the a-process decays. It is the opposite of the a-process and
produces an opposite affective experience.

image00311.jpg

The bottom graph shows the affect actually experienced, which
results from the combined effect of the disturbance and negative feedback on
the controlled variable. The original emotional experience is reduced and there
is an after-effect that is opposite to that of the original emotion.

It may or may not be a good account of the time-course of an
emotional experience, but it does a nice job of explaining drug-tolerance and
withdrawal symptoms. Injection or ingestion of the drug is the disturbance, and
something like an increase in output of an opposing neurotransmitter system is
the output. Over repeated exposures to the drug, the output-changes
increasingly overcome the direct effects of the drug (drug tolerance) so
abusers must take more of the drug to get the same effect. When the drug wears
off, only the opposing activity remains (for a time), producing withdrawal
symptoms.

Bruce A.

[From Bill Powers (2009.11.22.0540 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (2009.11.21.1235 EST]

Bill Powers (2009.11.21.0645
MDT) –

BP earlier: There have been a few recent offline discussions of emotion,
with references to Plutchik’s taxonomy and Solomon’s “opponent
process” “theory” of emotion which is really just another
taxonomy.

Solomon & Corbit’s “opponent
process” theory of emotion is not a taxonomy, it is a description of the
behavior of a really sluggish control system. The diagram below shows the
“a” process (the controlled variable, which produces the emotional
experience when it is in a state of error) and the “b” process, which is
the negative feedback output of the control system that opposes the
disturbance to the “a” process.

This does look like control theory. But why propose two opposing
processes, one for each direction of change? A model that will behave
this way is not hard to devise, and it just uses a single process. To be
generous, I’d say the opponent process theory is an attempt to model a
control system by someone who has only a rudimentary understanding of how
such systems work, and is just guessing. I don’t fault the guessing, of
course, except to say that publication was premature.

If you want a vacation from the book (no, I know you don’t), you could
try modeling a simple proportional control system with a feedback
function consisting of a leaky integrator. When the controlled variable
is suddenly disturbed, the output function will generate a large output
at first to cause the controlled variable to return toward its
undisturbed state, followed by a decay to a lower level of output that is
just enough to compensate for the leak in the integrator. How nearly the
original state of the controlled variable is approached while the
disturbance is still acting depends on the magnitude of the disturbance
and the loop gain of the control system. On removing the disturbance, the
system will have to produce a large negative output to bring the
controlled variable back to zero, with the output then decaying to zero
from the negative side. So opposite actions are produced at the onset and
cessation of the disturbance, with a large action at first (of
appropriate sign). If the output can’t go negative, the removal of the
disturbance will cause the output to go to zero, allowing the integrator
to leak its own way back to zero, at a slower speed.

Emotion enters, according to my theory, in proportion to the magnitude of
the output effort that the control system is generating. It’s possible,
on second thought, that the physiological preparedness is what shows the
overshoot and undershoot while the behavioral control process itself is a
simple proportional opposition to the disturbance without overshoot. We’d
have to have the detailed data to see which would be the better model.
But in no case do we need two separate processes to generate the observed
curves. Perhaps this is just a matter of a poor description of a model
that is perfectly OK.

655604.jpg

The bottom graph shows the affect actually experienced, which results
from the combined effect of the disturbance and negative feedback on the
controlled variable. The original emotional experience is reduced and
there is an after-effect that is opposite to that of the original
emotion.

I’m beginning to wonder if this is really the authors’ explanation of
what’s going on; it sounds more like your interpretation in
control-system terms. It doesn’t sound like what I read in the reference
David Goldstein sent me:

http://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch14_frontiers/solomons_opponent_process_theory.html
Here what it says near the start:
**Solomon discovered two components in every reaction to an emotional
situation. The first component he called the A reaction. It is
short-lived and intense. For example, while receiving an award, you may
feel great joy at the moment when you are handed your medal or
certificate. This response probably correlates with neural activity in
the brain; it is quick and almost simultaneous with experience of the
emotion-causing stimulus.
The B reaction is opposite from the A component in hedonic value.
In other words, if the A reaction is a happy emotion, the B reaction is
sad, and vice versa. The B response is slower to build and slower to
decay
. An hour after getting an award, you may feel a bit let down,
but the feeling gradually disappears toward the end of the day.**Later, we find this:
**The key to Solomon’s theory of addiction is that as an event is
repeated the B component becomes larger while the A component becomes
smaller
. The result, sometimes, is a complete reversal of emotion. An
event that was initially fun becomes boring, or an event that was
initially terrifying becomes fun.**I don’t argue with the descriptions of emotional phenomena, but I
don’t see any references to control theory in this. In fact, the article
talks about an “emotion-causing stimulus,” which sounds pretty
S-R to me. The theory about the A component and the B component is
about as rudimentary as you can get: the changes in magnitude of the two
components occur by magic. Judging just from this article, I wouldn’t say
Solomon, or the author of the article, has any clue about control
theory.

It may or may not be a good
account of the time-course of an emotional experience, but it does a nice
job of explaining drug-tolerance and withdrawal symptoms.

Not on the same time-scale, however. The curve above is very common in
system analysis and can show up for many different, but simple, reasons.
Habituation phenomena or extinction processes or whatever you want to
call them are not the same sort of thing that happens during an emotional
episode – we shouldn’t assume that two phenomena are similar just
because they follow the same waveform.

Anyway, they don’t offer an “explanation.” What they do offer
introduces another phenomenon of similar nature that needs an
explanation, so they’ve just put off the reckoning, like the man who had
the theory the the flat earth is held up on the back of a large turtle.
When asked by a lady in the audience what holds the turtle up, he said
“Madam, It’s turtles all the way down.” Isn’t that a Mark Twain
story?

(Another of his lecturer stories, my favorite: the lady in the audience,
showing off her erudition, asks him how he explains some long complicated
philosophical problem. The lecturer replies, “Madam, I’m happy to
say that I have an immediate answer to your question. I don’t
know.”)

The main problem I see, though it could be just insufficient
understanding on my part, is that just because a variable follows a
course like the lower plot above, there is no reason to suppose two
separate processes are at work. If the authors were really talking in
terms of control theory, and understood it, they wouldn’t talk about two
processes. It’s not that complicated.

Here is a very simple passive circuit that will produce the above
waveform when the disturbance jumps from zero to some positive voltage,
holds for a while, then drops back to zero. To get the fast rise and slow
fall, put a diode in the line between disturbance and resistor, where the

is. I don’t think you can get two processes out of this.

disturbance ----->—[resistor]------------------------>
output

      >
      >

capacitor resistor

      >
      >

ground ground

Injection or ingestion of the
drug is the disturbance, and something like an increase in output of an
opposing neurotransmitter system is the output. Over repeated exposures
to the drug, the output-changes increasingly overcome the direct effects
of the drug (drug tolerance) so abusers must take more of the drug to get
the same effect. When the drug wears off, only the opposing activity
remains (for a time), producing withdrawal symptoms.

Not bad, but I’d leave out the reference to a neurotransmitter – that’s
not the only kind of biochemistry going on. Is this what Solomon and
Corbit propose? It wasn’t in that article I was referred to. I like the
idea that the development of tolerance is not just a passive loss of
sensitivity, but an active opposition to a disturbance that is learned
and gets better with time. And when the disturbance is removed, the
opposition goes on for a while afterward, with its own bad effects when
acting by itself. If this is Solomon and Corbit’s idea, they were closer
to control theory than I thought. But why is there no mention of it in
the cited article?

Best,

Bill.

[From
Bruce Abbott (2009.11.22.1140 EST]

Bill Powers (2009.11.22.0540 MDT)

image0014.png

···

Bruce Abbott (2009.11.21.1235 EST]

Just a few quick comments:

BP: I’m beginning to wonder if
this is really the authors’ explanation of what’s going on; it sounds more like
your interpretation in control-system terms. It doesn’t sound like what I read
in the reference David Goldstein sent me:
http://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch14_frontiers/solomons_opponent_process_theory.html
BP: Here what it says near the start:
**BP: Solomon discovered two components in every reaction to an emotional
situation. The first component he called the A reaction. It is
short-lived and intense. For example, while receiving an award, you may feel
great joy at the moment when you are handed your medal or certificate. This
response probably correlates with neural activity in the brain; it is quick and
almost simultaneous with experience of the emotion-causing stimulus.
BP: The B reaction is opposite from the A component in hedonic value. In
other words, if the A reaction is a happy emotion, the B reaction is sad, and
vice versa. The B response is slower to build and slower to decay. An
hour after getting an award, you may feel a bit let down, but the feeling
gradually disappears toward the end of the day.**BP: Later, we find this:
**BP: The key to Solomon’s theory of addiction is that as an event is
repeated the B component becomes larger while the A component becomes smaller
.
The result, sometimes, is a complete reversal of emotion. An event that was
initially fun becomes boring, or an event that was initially terrifying becomes
fun.**BP: I don’t argue with the descriptions of emotional phenomena, but I don’t
see any references to control theory in this. In fact, the article talks about
an “emotion-causing stimulus,” which sounds pretty S-R to me. The
theory about the A component and the B component is about as rudimentary
as you can get: the changes in magnitude of the two components occur by magic.
Judging just from this article, I wouldn’t say Solomon, or the author of the
article, has any clue about control theory.

In
their original paper, Solomon and Corbit (1973) refer to an “affect-control
system,” although it is unclear to me exactly what they mean by this.
Their diagram of the proposal does not explicitly show a reference signal nor
the feedback onto the controlled variable, yet they seem to understand that the
system output (the b-process) acts to counteract the effects of the a-process.
Here’s their diagram:

What
I have done in describing the opponent-process model is to describe it
explicitly as a control system, so I think I’m going a bit beyond Solomon
& Corbit in describing the model as such.

BA: Injection or ingestion of the
drug is the disturbance, and something like an increase in output of an
opposing neurotransmitter system is the output. Over repeated exposures to the
drug, the output-changes increasingly overcome the direct effects of the drug
(drug tolerance) so abusers must take more of the drug to get the same effect.
When the drug wears off, only the opposing activity remains (for a time),
producing withdrawal symptoms.

BP: Not bad, but I’d leave out the reference to a neurotransmitter – that’s
not the only kind of biochemistry going on. Is this what Solomon and Corbit
propose? It wasn’t in that article I was referred to. I like the idea that the
development of tolerance is not just a passive loss of sensitivity, but an
active opposition to a disturbance that is learned and gets better with time.
And when the disturbance is removed, the opposition goes on for a while
afterward, with its own bad effects when acting by itself. If this is Solomon
and Corbit’s idea, they were closer to control theory than I thought. But why
is there no mention of it in the cited article?
Well, Solomon and Corbit didn’t make as
explicit as they might have (in terms of the components of a control system and
how their proposal fits that description) that what they were proposing is a
control system. Perhaps for that reason, those who describe Solomon and Corbit’s
model often mis-describe it. For example, Solomon and Corbit referred in their
paper to the a- and b-processes, whereas the author you quote has
changed “process” to “reaction,” giving these terms a
nice (I’m being sarcastic here) S-R twist.

Here is a link to a 1978 reprint of Solomon and Corbit’s
(1973) original paper, somewhat shortened, in PDF format:

http://meagherlab.tamu.edu/M-Meagher/Health%20360/Psyc%20360%20articles/Opponent%20Process.pdf

From
this you can make your own judgment as to whether Solomon and Corbit themselves
understood that they were proposing a control system.

Bruce
A.

[From Bill Powers (2009.11.22.1000 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (2009.11.22.1140 EST) –

BP: I don’t argue with the
descriptions of emotional phenomena, but I don’t see any references to
control theory in this. In fact, the article talks about an
“emotion-causing stimulus,” which sounds pretty S-R to me. The
theory about the A component and the B component is about as
rudimentary as you can get: the changes in magnitude of the two
components occur by magic. Judging just from this article, I wouldn’t say
Solomon, or the author of the article, has any clue about control
theory.

In their original paper, Solomon and Corbit (1973) refer to an
“affect-control system,” although it is unclear to me exactly what they
mean by this.

When people in biology and allied sciences say “control”, they
don’t mean what we mean. They mean “influence” or if the effect
is strong, “determine.” They don’t mean that if the controlled
variable changes, the system will act to restore it to its former
condition.

Their diagram of the
proposal does not explicitly show a reference signal nor the feedback
onto the controlled variable, yet they seem to understand that the system
output (the b-process) acts to counteract the effects of the a-process.
Here’s their diagram:

1400a2d.jpg

This is definitely not a control system; it’s an input-output system.
Cognitive perceptual signal in, affective signal out. The active signal
is said to represent reinforcer quality and intensity – that pretty much
puts it into the S-R category (though I realize behaviorists don’t like
to be called S-R psychologists).

If we ignore the mechanism for generating the waveform, this does say
that a cognitive perceptual signal results in an affective signal. If we
say this cognitive signal represents a disturbance which produces an
error signal and that the error signal produces an affective state and
the affective state produces a hedonic perceptual signal, then this is
just like my theory. Only it’s not like the opponent-process theory any
more.

What I have done in describing
the opponent-process model is to describe it explicitly as a control
system, so I think I’m going a bit beyond Solomon & Corbit in
describing the model as such.

I agree.

Well, Solomon and Corbit didn’t
make as explicit as they might have (in terms of the components of a
control system and how their proposal fits that description) that what
they were proposing is a control system. …

Here is a link to a 1978 reprint of Solomon and Corbit’s (1973) original
paper, somewhat shortened, in PDF format:


http://meagherlab.tamu.edu/M-Meagher/Health%20360/Psyc%20360%20articles/Opponent%20Process.pdf

From this you can make your own judgment as to whether Solomon and
Corbit themselves understood that they were proposing a control
system.

I don’t see anything at all in their paper suggesting that what they are
talking about is a control system. There isn’t even a closed loop. It’s
just a straight-through cause-effect system, as far as I can see. Do you
see something I have missed?

Best,

Bill P.

[From
Bruce Abbott (2009.11.22.1415 EST)]

Bill Powers (2009.11.22.1000 MDT)

1400a2d.jpg

···

Bruce Abbott (2009.11.22.1140 EST)

BP previously: I don’t argue with
the descriptions of emotional phenomena, but I don’t see any references to control
theory in this. In fact, the article talks about an “emotion-causing
stimulus,” which sounds pretty S-R to me. The theory about the A component
and the B component is about as rudimentary as you can get: the changes
in magnitude of the two components occur by magic. Judging just from this
article, I wouldn’t say Solomon, or the author of the article, has any clue
about control theory.

BA: In their original paper, Solomon and Corbit (1973) refer to an
“affect-control system,” although it is unclear to me exactly what
they mean by this.

BP: When people in biology and allied sciences say “control”, they
don’t mean what we mean. They mean “influence” or if the effect is
strong, “determine.” They don’t mean that if the controlled variable
changes, the system will act to restore it to its former condition.

BA: Their diagram of the proposal does not explicitly show a reference signal
nor the feedback onto the controlled variable, yet they seem to understand that
the system output (the b-process) acts to counteract the effects of the
a-process. Here’s their diagram:

[]

BP: This is definitely not a control system; it’s an
input-output system. Cognitive perceptual signal in, affective signal out. The
active signal is said to represent reinforcer quality and intensity – that
pretty much puts it into the S-R category (though I realize behaviorists don’t
like to be called S-R psychologists).

BP: If we ignore the mechanism for generating the waveform, this does say that
a cognitive perceptual signal results in an affective signal. If we say this
cognitive signal represents a disturbance which produces an error signal and
that the error signal produces an affective state and the affective state
produces a hedonic perceptual signal, then this is just like my theory. Only
it’s not like the opponent-process theory any more.

I
think that there’s a paper in there somewhere . . . To the extent that
the opponent-process model has been supported by data, the control-systems
model will succeed as well.

BA: What I have done in describing the opponent-process model is to describe it
explicitly as a control system, so I think I’m going a bit beyond Solomon
& Corbit in describing the model as such.

BP: I agree.

BA: Well, Solomon and Corbit
didn’t make as explicit as they might have (in terms of the components of
a control system and how their proposal fits that description) that what they
were proposing is a control system. …
Here is a link to a 1978 reprint of Solomon and Corbit’s (1973) original
paper, somewhat shortened, in PDF format:
http://meagherlab.tamu.edu/M-Meagher/Health%20360/Psyc%20360%20articles/Opponent%20Process.pdf

from this you can make your own judgment as to whether Solomon and Corbit
themselves understood that they were proposing a control system.

BP: I don’t see anything at all in their paper
suggesting that what they are talking about is a control system. There isn’t even
a closed loop. It’s just a straight-through cause-effect system, as far as I
can see. Do you see something I have missed?

Again,
I may be going beyond Solomon and Corbit’s own understanding of their
proposal. What they refer to as a “summing device” I would re-conceive
as the point where the system output (b-process) feeds back onto the controlled
variable, countering the disturbance. The “a-process” graph
represents the open-loop response of the system to a step disturbance; the “b-process”
graph represents the output of the control system, and the third graph
represents the observed changes in the controlled variable.

By
the way, my apology to the author you previously cited for a description of the
opponent-process model. On rereading the Solomon and Corbit paper, I found that
Solomon and Corbit did (in at least one place at least) mention a “b-reaction.”

Bruce
A.

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2009.11.23,1820 EU ST)]]

From Bill Powers (2009.11.21.0645 MDT)

I therefore make a modest proposal: let’s all stop using
emotion-names, and instead communicate what is wanted

and what feelings go with the cognitive reference level.

So instead of saying “You’re annoying me,” we would say
“I do wish you wouldn’t talk that way, but I’m not very
upset about it.” That conveys much more clearly what I’m
feeling and what I want than does the phrase “mildly annoyed.”

The Input Quantity tells us about the Disturbance (you) and the Feedback Quantity, th erefore I think it is wrong to say “You’re annoying me”. My proposal is identical with yours, I propose " I wish to perceive …, can you help me".

I have proposed (as others have before me) that an emotion is

a perceived combination of an action (or effect of an action)
and a perception of the state of the body. I’ve also used the term
“goal” in place of “action,” but now think that action or effect
of action is the more general term: if we only imagine the action
or its effect (as when a conflict or some other circumstance
keeps us from carrying it out), we call that a goal.

I like this.

I therefore make a modest proposal: let’s all stop using emotion-names,
and instead communicate what is wanted and what feelings go with the
cognitive reference level.

If aqnybody wish to hear the conventional theories about Emotions, you hear it clear on the URLs written below. Maybe I am wrong, but I think you will hear many things about perceptions and the way the brain is functioning that makes it difficult to stop using the concept “Emotion”. Althoug, I think I will follow your proposal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGY6Y9rDT7s&feature=related

1/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbacW1HVZVk&feature=related

Here he starts talking about what an Emotion is and what a feeling is at 12.00/34.01

2/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agxMmhHn5G4&feature=related

Here he says what a Fealing is. You hear it at 07.50/36.41.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTu-G3vwkXU&feature=PlayList&p=C6668205D6359DD0&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

Here he speaks about Emotion and Genes. I found this interesting.

bjorn

···

[From Dag Forssell (2009.11.23 10:10 PST)]

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2009.11.23,1820 EU ST)]]

Bjørn,

Many thanks for this. Two comments:

Damasio was discussed on CSGnet from late 94 well into 95, starting with this post by Robertson
[From Dick Robertson] (941219.2059CST)
Thanks for all the nice comments on “A Clinician looks at reorg.”
I have been chewing on Martin’s post about “The Bomb…” and it seems to
fit nicely with the theme in a book called, “Descartes’ Error,” by a
neurologist, Antonio R. Damasio (Grosset & Putnam, 94). In the blurb it
says, “In the course of explaining how emotions and feelings contribute to
reason and to adaptive social behavior, Damasio also offers a novel
perspective on what emotions and feelings actually are: a direct sensing
of our own body states, a link between the body and its survival-oriented
regulations, on the one hand, and consciousness, on the other.” [? I. e.
part of the intrinsic system?]As I vaguely recall, comments were made to the effect that it was too bad Damasio did not have PCT. He was close in some ways, yet way off the mark.

The YouTube videos you link to are much longer than the 10 minute max that you face when reading instructions at YouTube. One is 36 minutes. The resolution and sound quality are OK.

This opens up possibilities for posting of PCT videos on YouTube.

Best, Dag

···

[From Dag Forssell (2009.11.23 10:10 PST)]

[From Bjorn Simonsen
(2009.11.23,1820 EU ST)]]

Bj�rn,

Many thanks for this. Two comments:

Damasio was discussed on CSGnet from late 94 well into 95, starting with
this post by Robertson
[From Dick Robertson] (941219.2059CST)
Thanks for all the nice comments on “A Clinician looks at
reorg.”
I have been chewing on Martin’s post about “The Bomb…”
and it seems to
fit nicely with the theme in a book called, “Descartes’
Error,” by a
neurologist, Antonio R. Damasio (Grosset & Putnam, 94). In
the blurb it
says, “In the course of explaining how emotions and feelings
contribute to
reason and to adaptive social behavior, Damasio also offers a novel
perspective on what emotions and feelings actually are: a
direct sensing
of our own body states, a link between the body and its
survival-oriented
regulations, on the one hand, and consciousness, on the
other.” [? I. e.
part of the intrinsic system?]As I vaguely recall, comments were made to the effect that it was
too bad Damasio did not have PCT. He was close in some ways, yet way off
the mark.

The YouTube videos you link to are much longer than the 10 minute max
that you face when reading instructions at YouTube. One is 36 minutes.
The resolution and sound quality are OK.

This opens up possibilities for posting of PCT videos on YouTube.

Best, Dag

···

{From Bjorn Simonsen (2009.11.23,2200 EU sT)]

From Dag Forssell (2009.11.23 10:10 PST)

This opens up possibilities for posting of PCT videos on YouTube.

Yes, I wait for two possibilities. The first is a video where Bill lectures “What PCT is about”. The next is video Where Bill explaines his “Liveblock”.

I am working with an e-mail to Damasio. I wish to invite him to a discuss his statement " Emotions are built from simpler programs that exist in ourselves and that have existed for long time in evolution " in the CSG group . I am not sure he has free-time, but I will try.

Nice to hear from you Dag.

Bjorn

···

[From Bill Powers (2009.11.23.1337 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (2009.11.22.1415 EST) –

BP: This is definitely not a control system; it’s an input-output system.
Cognitive perceptual signal in, affective signal out. The active signal
is said to represent reinforcer quality and intensity – that pretty much
puts it into the S-R category (though I realize behaviorists don’t like
to be called S-R psychologists).

BA: …I think I’m going a bit
beyond Solomon & Corbit in describing the model as
such.

Here is a link to a 1978 reprint
of Solomon and Corbit’s (1973) original paper, somewhat shortened, in PDF
format:


http://meagherlab.tamu.edu/M-Meagher/Health%20360/Psyc%20360%20articles/Opponent%20Process.pdf

From this you can make your own judgment as to whether Solomon and
Corbit themselves understood that they were proposing a control
system.

They were not proposing a negative feedback control system. They call it
an “affect-control system,” but it’s just a cause-effect chain
connecting an “affect-arousing stimulus” through a filter to
the “manifest affective response” (quotes from article you
sent). The filter consists of the B process and the A process. The
article states, “The resultant manifest
dynamics of affect are a consequence of
subtracting the b process from the a
process.” The stimulus causes the response through some intervening
processes. That’s all they have.

Again, I may be going beyond
Solomon and Corbit’s own understanding of their proposal. What they refer
to as a “summing device” I would re-conceive as the point where the
system output (b-process) feeds back onto the controlled variable,
countering the disturbance. The “a-process” graph represents the
open-loop response of the system to a step disturbance; the “b-process”
graph represents the output of the control system, and the third graph
represents the observed changes in the controlled
variable.

I think you’re going out of your way to find an interpretation that makes
the Solomon and Corbitt article seem to describe a control system. Their
diagram does not contain any causal loops.

I know I’ve been coming down on psychology pretty hard and don’t blame
anyone for putting up some defenses (and you’re not the only one doing
it), but I think it’s time to face the music. Psychology missed the boat
and has been trying for 50 or 60 years to explain that while it may have
used other terms it really understood control theory all along and
doesn’t need to change anything. Well that’s just wrong. Mainstream
psychology did not ever understand control theory and never came within a
mile of it. Rick Marken has it exactly right, even if sometimes he
doesn’t quite find the right words for saying things without infuriating
everyone, even those on his side. Psychology is permeated, soaked in
every nook and cranny, with stimulus-response theory in one form or
another, despite all the denials you hear. The force of the causal
arguments was simply too strong to resist and psychology went too far
down that track to turn back. The only way to get back on the right track
(on which PCT is just one stop on a long journey) is to start over. Any
other approach will only lead to endless arguments over details that
simply don’t matter any more.

By the way, my apology to the
author you previously cited for a description of the opponent-process
model. On rereading the Solomon and Corbit paper, I found that Solomon
and Corbit did (in at least one place at least) mention a
“b-reaction.”

… and as I cited them above, they mention stimulus and response also.
Give up on them. They’re as hopeless as the rest of them.

Best,

Bill (I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more)
P.

P.S. Good. Now the B-process can take over again. For a while.

[From Rick Marken (2009.11.23.1420)]

Bill Powers (2009.11.23.1337 MDT)–

Rick Marken has it exactly right, even if sometimes he
doesn’t quite find the right words for saying things without infuriating
everyone, even those on his side. Psychology is permeated, soaked in
every nook and cranny, with stimulus-response theory in one form or
another, despite all the denials you hear. The force of the causal
arguments was simply too strong to resist and psychology went too far
down that track to turn back. The only way to get back on the right track
(on which PCT is just one stop on a long journey) is to start over. Any
other approach will only lead to endless arguments over details that
simply don’t matter any more.

Sometimes you say the sweetest things… I think? :wink:

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Abbott (2009.11.22.1820 EST)]

BP: Bill Powers (2009.11.23.1337 MDT) –

BA: Bruce Abbott (2009.11.22.1415 EST)

BP: They [Solomon & Corbit] were not proposing a
negative feedback control system. They call it

an “affect-control system,” but it’s just a
cause-effect chain

connecting an “affect-arousing stimulus”
through a filter to the

“manifest affective response” (quotes from
article you sent). The filter

consists of the B process and the A process. The article
states, "The

resultant manifest dynamics of
affect are a consequence of

subtracting the b process from the a process."
The stimulus causes the

response through some intervening processes. That’s all
they have.

BA: I’m not sure what you mean by a “filter”
here. What is being filtered? Here’s the diagram again; where’s the filter?

1400a2d.jpg

BA: Again, I may be going beyond Solomon and
Corbit’s own

understanding of their proposal. What they refer to as a
“summing

device” I would re-conceive as the point where the
system output

(b-process) feeds back onto the controlled variable,
countering the

disturbance. The “a-process” graph represents
the open-loop response of

the system to a step disturbance; the
“b-process” graph represents the

output of the control system, and the last graph
represents the

observed changes in the controlled variable.

BP: I think you’re going out of your way to find an
interpretation that

makes the Solomon and Corbitt article seem to describe a
control system.

Their diagram does not contain any causal loops.

I would say that I’m going
beyond that: If Solomon and Corbit are not describing a control system, I
certainly am. As I previously noted, one can view the a-process as the
open-loop response of the controlled variable to a step disturbance and the
b-process as the output of the control system that opposes the disturbance. The
time-course of changes to the controlled variable reflects the summated effects
of the disturbance and (negative feedback) output on the controlled variable.
Are you objecting to that characterization? You yourself said earlier that,
conceived in this way, Solomon and Corbit’s conception of emotion reduces to
yours. Or did I misunderstand?

BP: I know I’ve been coming down on psychology pretty
hard and don’t blame

anyone for putting up some defenses (and you’re not the
only one doing

it), but I think it’s time to face the music. Psychology
missed the boat

and has been trying for 50 or 60 years to explain that
while it may have

used other terms it really understood control theory all
along and

doesn’t need to change anything. Well that’s just wrong.
Mainstream

psychology did not ever understand control theory and
never came within

a mile of it. Rick Marken has it exactly right, even if
sometimes he

doesn’t quite find the right words for saying things
without infuriating

everyone, even those on his side. Psychology is
permeated, soaked in

every nook and cranny, with stimulus-response theory in
one form or

another, despite all the denials you hear. The force of
the causal

arguments was simply too strong to resist and psychology
went too far

down that track to turn back. The only way to get back on
the right

track (on which PCT is just one stop on a long journey)
is to start

over. Any other approach will only lead to endless
arguments over

details that simply don’t matter any more.

You said earlier that you had no problem with Solomon and
Corbit’s description of the phenomena their model was invented to account for.
In my view, if Solomon and Corbit’s model is actually a stimulus-response model
(as you claim it is), it doesn’t take much revision to turn it into a perfectly
good control-system model. Such a model can account for a number of known
phenomena (e.g., drug tolerance, addiction, drug withdrawal, thrill-seeking,
grief) within the PCT framework. What’s not to like?

It’s the ability (or inability)
to apply PCT to phenomena like these that ultimately will determine whether PCT
ever becomes the mainstream view, notwithstanding the fact that we need a
hellofa lot more research before we be confident that these applications are correct.

Bruce A.