In the last paragraph of Bill’s paper titled “A Systems Approach to Consciousness” (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those? Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Bill’s paper a while back.
Regards,
Fred Nickols, Knowledge Worker
My Objective is to Help You Achieve Yours
“Assistance at a Distance”SM
[From Rick Marken (2016.09.25.1610)]
On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us wrote:
FN: In the last paragraph of Billâs paper titled âA Systems Approach to Consciousnessâ? (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those? Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
RM: I don’t believe Bill or anyone else has followed up on this.
Â
FN: P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Billâs paper a while back.
RM: You’re welcome!
BestÂ
Rick
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1116 EST)]
Fred, thanks for sharing.
On p. 239 Powers writes: “If there can be any ultimate determinant of the way we learn to think and act, it must be in this set of inherited specifications for the state of the physical organism that calls for
no change in behavioral organization.” Shouldn’t this metacontrol system serve as the highest level of HPCT?
This idea sounds similar to Bateson’s Learning IV (see p. 18):
http://www.ufhrd.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/12-2_tosey.pdf .
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
“We are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.” - Mary Catherine Bateson
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:fred@nickols.us]
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Multi-Level Control Experiments and Consciousness
In the last paragraph of Bill’s paper titled “A Systems Approach to Consciousness” (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those? Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Bill’s paper a while back.
Regards,
Fred Nickols, Knowledge Worker
My Objective is to Help You Achieve Yours
“Assistance at a Distance”SM
Hi Chad, it might be misleading to do that because all the other levels develop through experience and in succession as you go higher, whereas the intrinsic systems are there in any animal right from the start… Sometimes I think of the layers as the fillings in the sandwich with intrinsic control systems at the top and the body at the bottom. At other times I think of the perceptual hierarchy as completely orthogonal to the intrinsic systems with only reorganisation relating between them. This might explain why as adults we can often ‘transcend’ our intrinsic systems (enduring extreme pain, sacrifices, etc for higher level goals). I think the latter was what Bill intended…
Warren
On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Chad T. Green Chad.Green@lcps.org wrote:
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1116 EST)]
Fred, thanks for sharing.Â
Â
On p. 239 Powers writes: âIf there can be any ultimate determinant of the way we learn to think and act, it must be in this set of inherited specifications for the state of the physical organism that calls for
no change in behavioral organization.â? Shouldnât this metacontrol system serve as the highest level of HPCT?Â
Â
This idea sounds similar to Batesonâs Learning IV (see p. 18):
http://www.ufhrd.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/12-2_tosey.pdf .
Â
Best,
Chad
Â
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
Â
âWe are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.â? - Mary Catherine Bateson
Â
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:fred@nickols.us]
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Multi-Level Control Experiments and Consciousness
Â
In the last paragraph of Billâs paper titled âA Systems Approach to Consciousnessâ? (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those? Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
Â
P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Billâs paper a while back.
Â
Regards,
Â
Fred Nickols, Knowledge Worker
My Objective is to Help You Achieve Yours
âAssistance at a Distanceâ?SM
Â
–
Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Â
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Â
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Â
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach
Available Now
Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1228 EST)]
Warren, are you suggesting that these intrinsic systems cannot be experienced?
Also, isnât reorganization just PCT-speak for self-organization?
I joined this group for the purpose of understanding stochastic resonance, similar to what von Foerster dubbed the order-from-noise principle:
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ordnoise.html . According to cyberneticist Robert Vallée (1990), âNoise does not create order, but it is an excellent structure displayer. If order can be thus generated by noise,
it is by means of an already existing structure, possibly not very evident, or under the influence of constraints, at times quite unobstrusive. Noise, nonetheless, plays a very important role as a trigger for the emergence of order in what is called self-organization
or autopoiesis of a system.â?
Would noise serve as a good candidate for the top of HPCT?
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
âWe are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.â? - Mary Catherine Bateson
Hi Chad, it might be misleading to do that because all the other levels develop through experience and in succession as you go higher, whereas the intrinsic systems are there in any animal right from the start… Sometimes I think of the
layers as the fillings in the sandwich with intrinsic control systems at the top and the body at the bottom. At other times I think of the perceptual hierarchy as completely orthogonal to the intrinsic systems with only reorganisation relating between them.
This might explain why as adults we can often ‘transcend’ our intrinsic systems (enduring extreme pain, sacrifices, etc for higher level goals). I think the latter was what Bill intended…
Warren
On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Chad T. Green Chad.Green@lcps.org wrote:
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1116 EST)]
Fred, thanks for sharing.
On p. 239 Powers writes: âIf there can be any ultimate determinant of the way we learn to think and act, it must be in this set of inherited specifications
for the state of the physical organism that calls for no change in behavioral organization.â? Shouldnât this metacontrol system serve as the highest level of HPCT?
This idea sounds similar to Batesonâs Learning IV (see p. 18):
[http://www.ufhrd.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/12-2_tosey.pdf](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ufhrd.co.uk_wordpress_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_2008_06_12-2D2-5Ftosey.pdf&d=CwMFAg&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=ma9YJVLOGHeDb51_tY3DCGGluMTAAqSMtJAXv3smXaU&s=lI3MfLRlPBz56nKv8BKyCsN3SpPaNQJ7ccZDzhk9aGo&e=) .
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
âWe are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.â? - Mary Catherine Bateson
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:fred@nickols.us
]
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Multi-Level Control Experiments and Consciousness
In the last paragraph of Billâs paper titled âA Systems Approach to Consciousnessâ? (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those?
Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Billâs paper a while back.
Regards,
Fred Nickols, Knowledge Worker
My Objective is to Help You Achieve Yours
âAssistance at a Distanceâ?SM
–
Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Website: [
http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406](Warren Mansell — Research Explorer The University of Manchester)
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai -
[
Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.routledge.com_books_details_9780415738781_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=USLcPE_rYzSt42ckx6dD7s9meajOCuDV942TJxIRvUI&s=Ol9nrzE_NItOgolQT_dS1YjIWbgo1aZ-x6ZSzs7-b70&e=)
Available Now
Check [
www.pctweb.org](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.pctweb.org&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=USLcPE_rYzSt42ckx6dD7s9meajOCuDV942TJxIRvUI&s=XWZqu8Vn-JPOulrAZQopDfnrGKFNBoZ2HJJbxp5oazU&e=) for further information on Perceptual Control Theory
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1228 EST)]
Warren, are you suggesting that these intrinsic systems cannot be experienced?
Also, isn’t reorganization just PCT-speak for self-organization?
I joined this group for the purpose of understanding stochastic resonance, similar to what von Foerster dubbed the order-from-noise principle: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ordnoise.html . According to cyberneticist Robert Vallée (1990), “Noise does not create order, but it is an excellent structure displayer. If order can be thus generated by noise, it is by means of an already existing structure, possibly not very evident, or under the influence of constraints, at times quite unobstrusive. Noise, nonetheless, plays a very important role as a trigger for the emergence of order in what is called self-organization or autopoiesis of a system.”
Would noise serve as a good candidate for the top of HPCT?
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
“We are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.” - Mary Catherine Bateson
Hi Chad, it might be misleading to d
o that because all the other levels develop through experience and in succession as you go higher, whereas the intrinsic systems are there in any animal right from the start… Sometimes I think of the layers as the fillings in the sandwich with intrinsic control systems at the top and the body at the bottom. At other times I think of the perceptual hierarchy as completely orthogonal to the intrinsic systems with only reorganisation relating between them. This might explain why as adults we can often ‘transcend’ our intrinsic systems (enduring extreme pain, sacrifices, etc for higher level goals). I think the latter was what Bill intended…
Warren
On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Chad T. Green Chad.Green@lcps.org wrote:
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1116 EST)]
Fred, thanks for sharing.
On p. 239 Powers writes: “If there can be any ultimate determinant of the way we learn to think and act, it must be in this set of inherited specifications for the state of the physical organism that calls for no change in behavioral organization.” Shouldn’t this metacontrol system serve as the highest level of HPCT?
This idea sounds similar to Bateson’s Learning IV (see p. 18): http://www.ufhrd.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/12-2_tosey.pdf .
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
“We are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.” - Mary Catherine Bateson
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:fred@nickols.us]
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Multi-Level Control Experiments and Consciousness
In the last paragraph of Bill’s paper titled “A Systems Approach to Consciousness” (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those? Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Bill’s paper a while back.
Regards,
Fred Nickols, Knowledge Worker
My Objective is to Help You Achieve Yours
“Assistance at a Distance”SM
–
Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach
Available Now
Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1320 EST)]
Warren, on second thought, yes! I do see what you mean by the latter scenario. What if we imagined these orthogonal systems as converging at the top with the
most bottom level(s) driven by a stochastic double-well potential pictured here:
http://www.physik.uni-bielefeld.de/~reimann/RESEARCH/SR.html ?
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
âWe are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.â? - Mary Catherine Bateson
Hi Chad, it might be misleading to do that because all the other levels develop through experience and in succession as you go higher, whereas the intrinsic systems are there in any animal right from the start… Sometimes I think of the
layers as the fillings in the sandwich with intrinsic control systems at the top and the body at the bottom. At other times I think of the perceptual hierarchy as completely orthogonal to the intrinsic systems with only reorganisation relating between them.
This might explain why as adults we can often ‘transcend’ our intrinsic systems (enduring extreme pain, sacrifices, etc for higher level goals). I think the latter was what Bill intended…
Warren
On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Chad T. Green Chad.Green@lcps.org wrote:
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1116 EST)]
Fred, thanks for sharing.
On p. 239 Powers writes: âIf there can be any ultimate determinant of the way we learn to think and act, it must be in this set of inherited specifications
for the state of the physical organism that calls for no change in behavioral organization.â? Shouldnât this metacontrol system serve as the highest level of HPCT?
This idea sounds similar to Batesonâs Learning IV (see p. 18):
[http://www.ufhrd.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/12-2_tosey.pdf](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ufhrd.co.uk_wordpress_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_2008_06_12-2D2-5Ftosey.pdf&d=CwMFAg&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=ma9YJVLOGHeDb51_tY3DCGGluMTAAqSMtJAXv3smXaU&s=lI3MfLRlPBz56nKv8BKyCsN3SpPaNQJ7ccZDzhk9aGo&e=) .
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
âWe are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.â? - Mary Catherine Bateson
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:fred@nickols.us
]
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Multi-Level Control Experiments and Consciousness
In the last paragraph of Billâs paper titled âA Systems Approach to Consciousnessâ? (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those?
Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Billâs paper a while back.
Regards,
Fred Nickols, Knowledge Worker
My Objective is to Help You Achieve Yours
âAssistance at a Distanceâ?SM
–
Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Website: [
http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.psych-2Dsci.manchester.ac.uk_staff_131406&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=USLcPE_rYzSt42ckx6dD7s9meajOCuDV942TJxIRvUI&s=RhyufEOg_KCE7ebrtQFiQ1q8oi9ihIIR_EuBTJQicAg&e=)
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai -
[
Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.routledge.com_books_details_9780415738781_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=USLcPE_rYzSt42ckx6dD7s9meajOCuDV942TJxIRvUI&s=Ol9nrzE_NItOgolQT_dS1YjIWbgo1aZ-x6ZSzs7-b70&e=)
Available Now
Check [
www.pctweb.org](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.pctweb.org&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=USLcPE_rYzSt42ckx6dD7s9meajOCuDV942TJxIRvUI&s=XWZqu8Vn-JPOulrAZQopDfnrGKFNBoZ2HJJbxp5oazU&e=) for further information on Perceptual Control Theory
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1320 EST)]
Warren, on second thought, yes! I do see what you mean by the latter scenario. What if we imagined these orthogonal systems as converging at the top with the
most bottom level(s) driven by a stochastic double-well potential pictured here:
http://www.physik.uni-bielefeld.de/~reimann/RESEARCH/SR.html ?
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
“We are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.� - Mary Catherine Bateson
Hi Chad, it might be misleading to do that because all the other levels develop through experience and in succession as you go higher, whereas the intrinsic systems are there in any animal right from the start… Sometimes I think of the
layers as the fillings in the sandwich with intrinsic control systems at the top and the body at the bottom. At other times I think of the perceptual hierarchy as completely orthogonal to the intrinsic systems with only reorganisation relating between them.
This might explain why as adults we can often ‘transcend’ our intrinsic systems (enduring extreme pain, sacrifices, etc for higher level goals). I think the latter was what Bill intended…
Warren
On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Chad T. Green Chad.Green@lcps.org wrote:
[From Chad Green (2016.09.26.1116 EST)]
Fred, thanks for sharing.
On p. 239 Powers writes: “If there can be any ultimate determinant of the way we learn to think and act, it must be in this set of inherited specifications
for the state of the physical organism that calls for no change in behavioral organization.� Shouldn’t this metacontrol system serve as the highest level of HPCT?
This idea sounds similar to Bateson’s Learning IV (see p. 18):
http://www.ufhrd.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/12-2_tosey.pdf .
Best,
Chad
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
“We are not what we know but what we are willing to learn.� - Mary Catherine Bateson
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:fred@nickols.us]
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Multi-Level Control Experiments and Consciousness
In the last paragraph of Bill’s paper titled “A Systems Approach to Consciousness� (see attached) he refers to some multi-level control experiments. Did he ever conduct those?
Did anyone else? Have they been written up somewhere? Where?
P.S. Thanks to Rick Marken for sharing Bill’s paper a while back.
Regards,
Fred Nickols, Knowledge Worker
My Objective is to Help You Achieve Yours
“Assistance at a Distance�SM
–
Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Website:
http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai -
Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach
Available Now
Check
www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory