mutuality and congregation

[Martin Taylor 961023 14:40]

Bill Powers (961022.1430 MDT) to ?Bill Benzon ?somedate

Why would single
cells congregate and like to be in each other's close neighborhood?
Because that provides a selective advantage. Because they are able to

control better that way. For mutual advantage. What other mechanism
is even imaginable?

These things don't happen BECAUSE they confer a selective advantage. They
happen AND they convey a selective advantage.

Yes, but lots of things happen and never are noticed--ships that pass in
the night. Bill and Bill are talking about things that happen and stick.
It is the sticking that is important, not the happening.

In my old draft taxonomy of helping, system number 8 is called "mutuality."
It is a situation in which System A is controlling a perception PA, and
system B is controlling a perception PB. Neither need know about the
other's existence, but either directly or through side-effects, A's
control of PA reduces the strength of the disturbing influences on the
CEV corresponding to PB, and vice-versa.

To see this, consider a simple example in which A and B do know about
each other and are deliberately "helping". A wants a heavy stake to be
driven into the ground, and his actions are to hit the top of the stake with
a mallet. B wants a stake to be vertical, and his actions are to hold
the stake with his hand. If B doesn't hold the stake, A has great trouble
hitting it. If A does hit it, B finds it easier to hold the heavy
piece of wood upright. B's actions do not affect A's perception of the
stake being driven into the ground. A's actions do not affect B's perception
of whether the stake is vertical. But each finds his own control job easier
if the other successfully controls his perception.

Now, one can readily imagine situations in which the chemical effluents of
one cell are useful in easing the control problems of another (to shift
the level of metaphor, oil on troubled waters), and that, perhaps in a
roundabout way, the control side effects (effluents, perhaps) of the second
are useful to the first. So long as the two cells stay together, they
both work better (lower error values) than when they are apart. Slow
reorganization when they are together, faster when they are apart. If
a mechanism develops that makes them tend to stick together, they continue
to work better and the mechanism doesn't reorganize away.

I don't like the implications of saying that a cell organizes other cells
to do what is good for its own welfare. But it does seem reasonable that
mutually beneficial structures will tend to be more robust against
potentially destructive influences than will structures that have just
come together by happenstance and don't convey any mutual benefit to the
elements of the structure. Reorganizations of the elements that enhance
the "stickiness" of the mutually beneficial structure will tend to be
kept; reorganizations that don't will tend to be lost.

The argument is much the same as for the "structures" of social convention.
Their existence is not controlled, but it is because of control that they
exist. Their elements control better because of the structure than they
would in isolation or in a random different structure.

Martin

[From Bill Powers (962014.0825 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 961023 14:40 --

(Hans) --

Why would single
cells congregate and like to be in each other's close neighborhood?
Because that provides a selective advantage. Because they are able to

control better that way. For mutual advantage. What other mechanism
is even imaginable?

(Bill P)

These things don't happen BECAUSE they confer a selective advantage. They
happen AND they convey a selective advantage.

(Martin)

Yes, but lots of things happen and never are noticed--ships that pass in
the night. Bill and Bill are talking about things that happen and stick.
It is the sticking that is important, not the happening.

If this isn't just a change of subject, as the rest of the post seems to
indicate, what does "sticking" have to do with it? To say that cells
congregate BECAUSE that confers an advantage is to say that they (or some
entity in charge of the operation) know that congregation would confer an
advantage, so that is what they do. A future event (the occurrance of the
advantage) can't affect a present action (the congregation) unless there is
a purposive system which contains accrual of the advantage as a reference
condition. Are you saying that the individual cells contain a reference
signal specifying the advantage and then congregate to obtain it? Well, I
know that neither you nor Hans would say that. But if you wouldn't say that,
then why use the language of purposive behavior, which is precisely about
systems that DO behave that way?

I think your description of how social systems work is very clear and that
it avoids completely the implications of speaking as if the outcome were
specified in advance by some purposive system. I would like to reserve
descriptions that sound purposive for systems that are actually purposive.

I would like to say it something like this. IF a cell mutates in such a way
that it effectively sets reference signals in other cells, directly, THEN
the new cell can act as a higher level of control. IF this enhances the
ability of the whole aggregate of cells to control in the face of
disturbances, THEN the whole aggregate will be able to continue functioning
despite those disturbances. This way of describing the situation doesn't
imply any knowledge of the future or any anticipation of an advantage. It
says only that if there's an advantage in the new arrangement, there's an
advantage. No metaphysics. If we're going to talk metaphysics, I'd prefer
that we do it directly, not introduce it through the back door by default.

Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 961024 16:55]

Bill Powers (962014.0825 MDT) I think that should be 961024.

If this isn't just a change of subject, as the rest of the post seems to
indicate, what does "sticking" have to do with it?

I don't see how the rest of the post has any change from the subject of
your discussion with Hans. But your last paragraph goes off into an
entirely new direction.

My posting was to exactly the same effect as the posting you approved
on the development of social convention. Things that reduce error tend
not to be reorganized away.

Let's say it again.

Suppose there is a cell X that is controlling one variable, PX. Its actions
AX in performing that control affect its local environment--let's not specify
how, but note that one possibility is a side-effect release of chemical
byproducts.

Suppose there is another cell Y that is controlling PY. Its actions AY affect
its local environment.

PX is influenced by disturbing variables DX, PY by DY. Let us suppose that
actions AY reduce the coupling between DX and the disturbing influence dX,
so that cell X is subject to weaker disturbances when Y is nearby than
when Y is distant. Let us suppose that the actions AX reduce the coupling
similarly between DY and the disturbing influence dY. This is the "mutuality"
relationship between X and Y.

The error EX and the error EY are both smaller when cell X is near cell Y
than when they are distant from each other. If some reorganization of either
X or Y enhances the probability that X and Y will stay close to one another
(I used the word "stick" before), reorganization will be slower than if
X and Y drift apart as readily as they drift together.

How does your comment quoted below apply?

To say that cells
congregate BECAUSE that confers an advantage is to say that they (or some
entity in charge of the operation) know that congregation would confer an
advantage, so that is what they do.

And how does the last paragraph of your posting relate to the question at all?
I have said nothing about either cell affecting the reference signals of
the other. You are dealing with a separate, and equally interesting, question.

···

I would like to say it something like this. IF a cell mutates in such a way
that it effectively sets reference signals in other cells, directly, THEN
the new cell can act as a higher level of control. IF this enhances the
ability of the whole aggregate of cells to control in the face of
disturbances, THEN the whole aggregate will be able to continue functioning
despite those disturbances.

------------

If we're going to talk metaphysics, I'd prefer
that we do it directly, not introduce it through the back door by default.

I never liked metaphysics, and if you want to talk about it, I'll bow out
of the discussion.

Martin

[Martin Taylor 961024 16:55]

I never liked metaphysics, and if you want to talk about it, I'll bow out
of the discussion.

Just call metaphysics the upper levels stuff, that'll make it kosher in
this crowd. Though you might have to use the secret handshake next time
you sign-on.

···

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