Neglected side of PCT

[From Bruce Abbott (991119.1225 EST)]

Rick Marken (991119.0740)

Bruce Abbott (991118.1940 EST)

The environment is the neglected side of PCT

What? I think it's far more accurate to say that the
environment is the neglected side of conventional
psychology. Conventional psychology looks _only_ at
the effect of the environment on the organism (b = f(e);
behavior is a function of the environment)

It looks at how the organism's experiences with the environment (including
the effects of its own behavior on the environment) change the way the
organism behaves when it encounters such conditions again in the future.
This is entirely different from believing that one has described the
organism function when one has only described the inverse of the
environmental feedback function (i.e., the behavioral illusion). PCT thus
far has had very little to say about this topic, other than to propose a
simple and incomplete random-reorganization model which points to
"persistent error" in "intrinsic" variables as the initiator of changes in
organization that supposedly lead to improved control. It is easy to
overlook the fact that the environment of the individual constrains what
solutions will work or fail, and this has led to a general neglect of (and
failure to appreciate the importance of) the role of the environment in
reorganization. That's why I said that the environment is the neglected
side of PCT. In contrast, these environmentally-constrained changes are
precisely the focus of study in EAB.

(Thus the only importance of the environment is that
the feedback loop passes through it.)

The environment shows up in PCT as feedback functions,
disturbances and controlled variables.

Only because the feedback loop passes through the environment. The control
system doesn't measure the disturbance or its own outputs, it only senses
its input, which of course is being affected by environmental forces:
disturbances and the effects of its own actions.

Regards,

Bruce A.

[From Bruce Gregory (991119.1251 EST)]

Bruce Abbott (991119.1225 EST)

PCT thus
far has had very little to say about this topic, other than
to propose a
simple and incomplete random-reorganization model which points to
"persistent error" in "intrinsic" variables as the initiator
of changes in
organization that supposedly lead to improved control. It is easy to
overlook the fact that the environment of the individual
constrains what
solutions will work or fail, and this has led to a general
neglect of (and
failure to appreciate the importance of) the role of the
environment in
reorganization. That's why I said that the environment is
the neglected
side of PCT.

I think you are being a bit unfair. The success of reorganization
depends directly on the nature of the environment.

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Abbott (991119.1625 EST)]

Bruce Gregory (991119.1251 EST) --

Bruce Abbott (991119.1225 EST)

PCT thus
far has had very little to say about this topic, other than to propose a
simple and incomplete random-reorganization model which points to
"persistent error" in "intrinsic" variables as the initiator of changes in
organization that supposedly lead to improved control. It is easy to
overlook the fact that the environment of the individual constrains what
solutions will work or fail, and this has led to a general neglect of (and
failure to appreciate the importance of) the role of the environment in
reorganization. That's why I said that the environment is the neglected
side of PCT. In contrast, these environmentally-constrained changes are
precisely the focus of study in EAB.

I think you are being a bit unfair. The success of reorganization
depends directly on the nature of the environment.

How so? Talking about reorganization, I said what you just said, right here:

the environment of the individual constrains what
solutions will work or fail

1. What was unfair about it? How does your rewording make it fair?

2. How many PCT studies are you aware of that investigated how what sorts of
    organizations emerge via reorganization under particular environmental
    constraints?

Regards,

Bruce A.

from [ Marc Abrams (991119.2107) ]

[From Bruce Abbott (991119.1625 EST)]

Although I've ripped Rick pretty hard for what I saw as his misuse of the
existing PCT "Framework" I think you take it to the other degree. Bruce I
have not seen anything constructive coming from your postings in a while. I
personally think that's a shame. You talk about holes that I think are
fairly evident, but neither lethal or unknowable. You seem to be the
antihesis of Ricks extreme rantings on one end. It hasn't always been easy
presenting new ideas on CSG net but I think you have a lot more to
contribute then coming across as Mr. Scrooge. :slight_smile: So the theory has holes,
so it's not complete. Your here because, flat out, there is _nothing_
remotely close to PCT. If your here to rip it apart your wasting your time.

Marc

>Bruce Gregory (991119.1251 EST) --

>>Bruce Abbott (991119.1225 EST)

>>PCT thus
>>far has had very little to say about this topic, other than to propose a
>>simple and incomplete random-reorganization model which points to
>>"persistent error" in "intrinsic" variables as the initiator of changes

in

>>organization that supposedly lead to improved control. It is easy to
>>overlook the fact that the environment of the individual constrains what
>>solutions will work or fail, and this has led to a general neglect of

(and

>>failure to appreciate the importance of) the role of the environment in
>>reorganization. That's why I said that the environment is the neglected
>>side of PCT. In contrast, these environmentally-constrained changes are
>>precisely the focus of study in EAB.

>I think you are being a bit unfair. The success of reorganization
>depends directly on the nature of the environment.

How so? Talking about reorganization, I said what you just said, right

here:

>>the environment of the individual constrains what
>>solutions will work or fail

1. What was unfair about it? How does your rewording make it fair?

2. How many PCT studies are you aware of that investigated how what sorts

of

ยทยทยท

    organizations emerge via reorganization under particular environmental
    constraints?

Regards,

Bruce A.