New Brain Research, Bridges

CSGnet Archive CSG1997
1

[From Rick Marken (971230.0840)]

Paul Stokes (971230.1341 GMT)--

I have the full text of [John McCrone's New Scientist] article and
the URL for McCrone's website if anyone's interested.

I'm interested. There seems to be a lot of interest in this article.
How about posting the URL to CSGNet.

Bruce Abbott (971230.1100 EST) --

I've got my bridge-building construction set right here under
my arm, and I intend to use it to connect PCT with EAB, with
or without you.

I believe it's now over three years that you have been on CSGNet
and there is no sign of a bridge (in the form of a paper submitted
for publication) yet. I suspect that if you ever do get to building
your bridge it's going to turn out to be a lot like the original
Tacoma Narrows; I'll let you be the first to drive across it in
a storm of criticism;-)

By the way, are you ever going to tell me what _you_ think are
the major discoveries of PCT research over the past 50 years?
Does your silence mean that you think there are none?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

2

[From Rick Marken (971230.1200)]

Paul Stokes (971230.1341 GMT) said:

In this article McCrone describes the new moves by some cognitive
scientists away from an input-output/bottom-up (reductionist)
model of the brain towards the realisation that the brain is a
hierarchically-organized control system (my interpretation).

I have read John McCrone's "Wild Minds" article in New Scientist
and can now say with confidence that he is no closer to understanding
the brain as hierarchically-organized control system than
behaviorists are to understanding operant learning and behavior
as the control of perception. I could tell things were not going
well right from the start when McCrone approvingly quotes the
following conversation between a couple of neuroscientists:

the brain is like this pond. You throw in a pebble - the sensory
input - and you get ripples.

No. The brain is like an input control system; you throw in a pebble
(a disturbance to a sensory input -- the surface of the pond) and
you get actions (a hand emerging from the pond, slapping the pebble
away) that protects the sensory input from the effects of the
disturbance -- you get no ripples!

That's the neurons responding. Sure, the pattern says something
about the way the pebble hit the surface. But the pond is already
covered in ripples caused by other pebbles, so the pattern appears
a little chaotic. And then once the ripples spread out far enough
to begin bouncing off the sides, he continued, the shape of the
pond begins to affect what is going on. The whole thing keeps
evolving and becoming more complex. Yes, replied his friend,
nodding furiously, and as we throw more and more pebbles - or
rather experiences - into the pond, we change the kind of patterns
it produces, and even the shape of the pond itself. This system
has a memory!

This is a pure cause-effect view of the behavior of the nervous
system, different from the current view _only_ in the use of
trendy science terms like "chaos" and "dynamics". This is the
stuff that PCT nightmares are made of.

Paul says:

Congrats PCT, your time has come.

A little premature, I'm afraid. I have delt with "dynamical
systems" types. They are no more amenable to the idea that
sensory input is controlled than are behaviorsists, cognitivists
or any other type of conventional psychologist. PCT's time will
have come when people are ready to give up the cause-effect
view of behavior and see the brain as a system organized around
the _control_ of the afferent (sensory) impulses coming into it.

Bruce Abbott (971230.1310 EST) --

(At the moment I'm 40+ sessions into a study of VI schedule
performance.)

Cool! How about telling us about the study and what you've
found so far?

Me:

By the way, are you ever going to tell me what _you_ think are
the major discoveries of PCT research over the past 50 years?
Does your silence mean that you think there are none?

Bruce:

No, and no.

I'm crushed;-(

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

3

[Paul Stokes (971231:0138)]

Rick Marken (971230.1200) said:

I have read John McCrone's "Wild Minds" article in New Scientist
and can now say with confidence that he is no closer to understanding
the brain as hierarchically-organized control system than
behaviorists are to understanding operant learning and behavior
as the control of perception. I could tell things were not going
well right from the start when McCrone approvingly quotes the
following conversation between a couple of neuroscientists:

> the brain is like this pond. You throw in a pebble - the sensory
> input - and you get ripples.

No. The brain is like an input control system; you throw in a pebble
(a disturbance to a sensory input -- the surface of the pond) and
you get actions (a hand emerging from the pond, slapping the pebble
away) that protects the sensory input from the effects of the
disturbance -- you get no ripples!

All I can say in response is: Rick, it may be time to break the
cycle you seem to be locked into. To my reading the new
experimental evidence that McCrone adduces speaks of the mind as a
hierachically organized control system. This is very much in
favour of the HPCT position and is an opportunity to be exploited.
However, the theoretical framework that is brought along to
make sense of the findings by McCrone et al is that of complex
dynamic systems. In my message I said that this theory only appears
to explain (it acts descriptively but also deceptively in this
regard) but does not - thus leaving an opening for a HPCT
explanation.

If we are going to concede every skirmish to the other side because
we haven't been bothered to read the contradictions and
opportunities in their positions carefully enough then we may as well
give up.

As I said: go for it! Who is going to reply to the New Scientist and
engage McCrone in a debate?

Not me: I'm only a sociologist :-}

Paul

    Paul A. STOKES
    Department of Sociology
    University College Dublin
    IRELAND

···

___________________________________________________
    paul.stokes@ucd.ie
    +353-1-7067002

4

[From Rick Marken (971230.1930)]

McCrone:

the brain is like this pond. You throw in a pebble - the sensory
input - and you get ripples.

Me:

No. The brain is like an input control system; you throw in a
pebble -- you get no ripples!

Paul Stokes (971231:0138) --

All I can say in response is: Rick, it may be time to break the
cycle you seem to be locked into.

Gee, I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining the difference
between McCrone's cause-effect view and the PCT control of input
view of brain function.

To my reading the new experimental evidence that McCrone adduces
speaks of the mind as a hierachically organized control system.

What evidence is that? Maybe I missed it. I am, indeed, locked
into a control of input cycle pretty strongly but I like to
think that I am open to evidence pointing either way. What was
McCrone's evidence that the brain is an input control system?

If we are going to concede every skirmish to the other side
because we haven't been bothered to read the contradictions
and opportunities in their positions carefully enough then
we may as well give up.

I didn't mean to concede anything to McCrone. I guess I didn't
understand how I was supposed to deal with McCrone's article.
I thought you were saying that McCrone's theoretical ideas
were compatible with HPCT. But now I see that you were
actually saying that McCrone's _discoveries_ are consistent
with HPCT but that he mistakenly interpreted them in terms of
chaos and dynamical systems theory. Is that right?

By the way, my daughter will be in Ireland in a couple weeks.
She'll be going through Dublin on her way to visit a friend
(doing a study abroad) in Galway. If she gets a chance, would
it be OK if she stops by the University where you are and
says "hi". She's mercifully uninterested in PCT but she said
she is very interested in Irish politics -- especially female
reproductive rights (she's at Berkeley; what can I do?;-)) She's
extraordinarily bright (gets it from her mother;-)) and cute too
(gets that from me;-)) and I think you might enjoy visiting with
each other.

Best

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/