new control systems

Stefan_Balke1 · January 8, 2001, 6:54pm

[From Stefan Balke (01.01.08)]

I’m interested to learn how a new control system is created in an already existing hierarchy.

What comes first: the reference signal?

How are the functions and connections build up? Is there evidence at a neuronal level.

Is it possible to model how a new control system evolves?

How is it possible that a new, higher level in the hierarchy is created?

Does learning affect the output function of a control system or does learning mean, that new control systems are created or both?

I don’t recall that I have read about questions like this (with the exception of an old email from Bill, which I can’t find and probably left on my old PC). Is this already described in a book or text anywhere?

Can anybody help me?

Thanks and best regards, Stefan

Bruce_Gregory · January 8, 2001, 10:41pm

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0108.1741)]

Stefan Balke (01.01.08)

I'm interested to learn how a new control system is created in an already
existing hierarchy.

What comes first: the reference signal?
How are the functions and connections build up? Is there evidence at a
neuronal level.
Is it possible to model how a new control system evolves?
How is it possible that a new, higher level in the hierarchy is created?
Does learning affect the output function of a control system or does
learning mean, that new control systems are created or both?

GREAT questions! I look forward to reading the answers.

BG

Bill_Powers1 · January 9, 2001, 1:30pm

[From Bill Powers (2001.01.09.0456 MST)]

Is it impossible for everyone to send posts in plain text? I keep getting
HTML-formatted posts, which are loaded with markup commands and which can
only be printed out in graphics mode, which takes forever (about three
minutes per page on a dot-matrix printer). Furthermore, my Eudora mail
program displays the text OK when reading it, but when I do a "reply," the
copied post comes through with large amounts of missing text. I suppose I
could try a later version of Eudora, with a new set of bugs. But plain text
is so simple, and all programs can read it! And to forestall other
suggestions, dot-matrix printing costs about one cent per page, while
deskjet printing costs about 5 cents per page.

from Stefan Balke (01.01.08)]

I'm interested to learn how a new
control system is created in an already existing hierarchy. What comes
first: the reference signal? build up?

I worked it out logically like this. First, the variable to be controlled
has to be defined. This means that perception has to come first. Once you
can perceive a variable, memories of the variable in different states can
begin to accumulate, and you can form opinions about whether some states
were "good" or "bad" -- that is, helped reduce or increase error in other
control systems. Once you have memories of previous states of the variable
and know what states to prefer, you can pick certain states to experience
again or avoid experiencing -- that is, you can pick high or low recorded
values to serve as reference signals. Now you can compare present-time
experience of the variable with the selected remembered reference state and
judge the error, so the comparator and error signal come next. And finally,
given an error signal you can discover what actions to perform that will
(1) affect the perception, and then (2) affect it so as to bring its value
closer to the reference signal's value. Performing an action is taken,
where appropriate, to mean the same thing as varying a reference signal for
an existing lower-level system, or contributing changes in reference
signals to many lower-level systems.

So the sequence goes
1. perception
2. memory
3. reference signal
4. comparator,error signal
5. output function,output signals.

Before any item on the list can function, all the previous items must be
working. Maybe this tells us something about reorganization, as well as
_pre_organization that must exist in the brain.

Anyway, that's how I worked it out. I don't know of any neurological
evidence for this.

Best,
Bill P.

Stefan_Balke1 · January 9, 2001, 2:56pm

[From Stefan Balke (01.01.09)]

Bill Powers (2001.01.09.0456 MST)

Is it impossible for everyone to send posts in plain text? I keep getting
HTML-formatted posts,

I hope that I found the right settings and the format will be ok if it
arrives.

Anyway, that's how I worked it out.

Thank you Bill, it gives me a lot to think about. I'll try to apply this to
a learning situation.

I don't know of any neurological evidence for this.

Would it be to expect that there is a neurological basis? If so, it could be
worth making a literature search.

Wasn't it Thomas Kuhn who stated that in scientific research the question is
first (reference state) and then the observation (perception) takes part? Or
is a question about something new an internal perception?

Best regards, Stefan

Bruce_Gregory · January 9, 2001, 4:04pm

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0109.1104)]

Bill Powers (2001.01.09.0456 MST)

Is it impossible for everyone to send posts in plain text? I keep getting
HTML-formatted posts, which are loaded with markup commands and which can
only be printed out in graphics mode, which takes forever (about three
minutes per page on a dot-matrix printer). Furthermore, my Eudora mail
program displays the text OK when reading it, but when I do a "reply," the
copied post comes through with large amounts of missing text. I suppose I
could try a later version of Eudora, with a new set of bugs. But plain text
is so simple, and all programs can read it! And to forestall other
suggestions, dot-matrix printing costs about one cent per page, while
deskjet printing costs about 5 cents per page.

I have no trouble reading and responding to all posts on CSGnet using
Eudora 5.0.2.

BG

bnhpct · January 9, 2001, 6:53pm

[From Bruce Nevin (2001.01.09 10:53 EST)]

Bill Powers (2001.01.09.0456 MST)--

Is it impossible for everyone to send posts in plain text? I keep getting
HTML-formatted posts, which are loaded with markup commands and which can
only be printed out in graphics mode, which takes forever (about three
minutes per page on a dot-matrix printer). Furthermore, my Eudora mail
program displays the text OK when reading it, but when I do a "reply," the
copied post comes through with large amounts of missing text.

Bill, this is the current standard for email software. I don't think you will be able to control everyone changing the default to your preferences.

It is not even clear that I *can* change the default in Eudora 4.3.2 (Paid Mode). I just looked in the help system and found what looks like relevant information under "Styled Text Option". Following instructions there, I went to Tools > Options, selected Styled Text, and clicked "send plain text only". I then sent a message with quoted text to myself; it appears with a gray bar to the left of quoted text instead of > marks, and that tells me that HTML is still being used to "style" quoted text. I exited Eudora, re-started it, and repeated the experiment; same result. See below:

X-Sender: bnevin@pilgrim.cisco.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:37:35 -0800
To: bn@cisco.com
From: Bruce Nevin <bnevin@cisco.com>
Subject: test of styled text

[From Bill Powers (2001.01.09.0456 MST)]

Is it impossible for everyone to send posts in plain text? I keep getting
HTML-formatted posts, which are loaded with markup commands and which can
only be printed out in graphics mode, which takes forever (about three
minutes per page on a dot-matrix printer). Furthermore, my Eudora mail
program displays the text OK when reading it, but when I do a "reply," the
copied post comes through with large amounts of missing text.

QualComm might have suggestions if you want to call them. But you might have to upgrade. I am completely sympathetic about the cost of printing. I am also completely sympathetic with the problem of legibility on a CRT. This problem can be alleviated somewhat by setting a larger print size in your Eudora display options (Tools>Options>Fonts, in the Screen section, pick a monospace font like Courier and try a larger size than what you now have). Might also evaluate the image quality of your current monitor, a more expensive route but with a payoff far beyond email.

I hope this helps.

Bruce Nevin

···

At 06:30 AM 01/09/2001 -0700, Bill Powers wrote:

At 06:30 AM 01/09/2001 -0700, Bill Powers wrote:

Bill_Powers1 · January 9, 2001, 9:36pm

[From Bill Powers (2001.01.09.1424 MST)]

Bruce Nevin (2001.01.09 10:53 EST) et. al. --

Bill Powers (2001.01.09.0456 MST)--

Is it impossible for everyone to send posts in plain text?

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, all of which basically said "Live
with it." I guess this is just another case of progress making life more
difficult. For people who always read posts on the screen, there is
obviously no problem; I suppose that later versions of Eudora, or using
some other software like Pegasus, would eliminate the "reply" problem. Mary
and I have pretty much decided to eliminate printing out the mail, even
though that rules out reading it while lying on the sofa or in bed, because
adequate archives seem to exist (Mary wanted paper archives, and we have
them all from 1990). My nice little Pascal program for printing out two
pages per page in compressed columns will be retired to obscurity. Oh Brave
New World...

Best,

Bill P.

···

At 06:30 AM 01/09/2001 -0700, Bill Powers wrote:

Bill_Powers1 · January 9, 2001, 9:40pm

[From Bill Powers (2001.01.09.1438 MST)]

Stefan Balke (01.01.09)--

Wasn't it Thomas Kuhn who stated that in scientific research the question is
first (reference state) and then the observation (perception) takes part? Or
is a question about something new an internal perception?

It's hard to see how the reference signal could come first, since it's a
specification for the state of a perception. Don't you have to create the
perception first, before you can decide what state of it you prefer?

Best,

Bill P.

Bill_Powers1 · January 10, 2001, 1:42am

[From Bill Powers (2001.01.09.1834 MST)]

I don't know where the HTML gets introduced. I can find only one CSG
message since January 1 in my CSG-New.mbx file that has HTML code in it
(the tag isn't HTML), and that is the one announcing "Special
Issue of JASS journal".

Rupert Young sent several recently. I use the .mbx files to print out.
They're usually fine. Occasionally, one of them starts the printer printing
one-character lines and various gobbldegook. On inspection with an ASCII
editor, these turn out to be HTML files. When the person at the other end
re-sends the same message after selecting the "plain text" option, the
message comes through fine. That's my evidence for believing that (a) HTML
files are causing the trouble, and (b) it's possible to send plain text
just by choosing the right option for sending email. If you have an HTML
reader enbedded in your program for viewing email, this wouldn't affect the
screen viewer -- after all, it has to be able to handle plain text, too,
converting it into graphics.

Anyhow, I'm resigned to having to change my old-fashioned ways, so the
question is moot.

Best,

Bill P.

Bill_Powers1 · January 10, 2001, 10:28pm

Hi, Bruce --

···

At 09:40 PM 1/9/2001 -0800, you wrote:

Bill,

I've tweaked the only parameters I can find in Eudora. I'm lacking
perceptual input.

I can't find anything from Rupert in recent mail. (Searched for Rupert and
for Young in mailboxes for October, November, December, and this month.)

Following is an excerpt from my mail for Jan 8, 2000, which covers several
previous days of posts.

Bill

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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:54:08 -0000
From: Rupert Young <RYoung@SEEBEYOND.COM>
Subject: PCT Modeling - changing signals
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: ,>9"!U"m"!%Q*!!0/N!!

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<TITLE>PCT Modeling - changing signals</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>[From Rupert Young (2001.01.03.1900 UT)]</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>With reference to a control problem I am looking at, does
anyone have any neat formulae for working out how a signal is changing over
time at a particular time ?  ie. how do I work out the first (velocity)
and second (acceleration) derivatives of a signal ?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>For example, given this sample data,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Time (mins)    
        Value</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>10.1   
       
        21.2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>10.3   
       
        21.4</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>10.5   
       
        21.6</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>10.9   
       
        22.0</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>11.0   
       
        22.5</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>11.2   
       
        24.0</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>11.5   
       
        27.0</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>the sort of thing I would like to know is how, at time 11.5,
I can determine how the signal has changed over the last minute, and how the
signal is accelerating.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Any help appreciated.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Regards, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Rupert Young</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Professional Services Consultant</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>--------------------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT
SIZE=2>           
SeeBeyond</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Mizuno House, 612, Reading Rd, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>       Winnersh RG41 5HE</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>   email: ryoung@seebeyond.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>     Tel: +44 (118) 989 6830</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>    Mobile: +44 (7879) 425 400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>--------------------------------</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML></x-html>From ???@??? Thu Jan 04 11:16:50 2001
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:57:03 -0500
From: isaac <kurtzer@BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PCT Modeling - changing signals
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: Il2!!lM^"!'R]"!E25"!

<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>PCT Modeling - changing signals</TITLE>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>i.kurtzer (2001.01.03.1530)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A derivative is the instaneous rate of change of
a
function.  For a short time interval this is the rise over run, or
change
in y over change in x.  With your data you would apply the formula
(Yi+1-Yi)/(Xi+1-Xi).  If the time sample is larger then
the slope is the average rate of change over that interval, although the
instanteous rate of change may have only occured at that value once, but
it
HAS to at least once.  I typed in the answers in your
post. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <P><FONT size=2>[From Rupert Young (2001.01.03.1900 UT)]</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>With reference to a control problem I am looking at, does
  anyone have any neat formulae for working out how a signal is changing over
  time at a particular time ?  ie. how do I work out the first
(velocity)
  and second (acceleration) derivatives of a signal ?</FONT></P>
  <P> </P>
  <P> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>For example, given this sample data,</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Time (mins)    
         
  Value         

V
'
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V''<BR>10.1           
       

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0<BR>10.3           
       

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0<BR>10.5           
       

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10<BR>10.9           
       

2
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25<BR>11.0           
       

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nbsp;       12.5<BR>11.2   
       
       

2
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  10<BR>11.5           
          27.0</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>the sort of thing I would like to know is how, at time
11.5, I
  can determine how the signal has changed over the last minute, and how the
  signal is accelerating.</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Any help appreciated.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Regards, </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>Rupert Young</FONT>
<BR><FONT
  size=2>Professional Services Consultant</FONT>
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From ???@??? Thu Jan 04 17:33:23 2001
To: RYoung@SEEBEYOND.COM
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
Subject: derivatives
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments: \\Bill\billc\Diffz2.zip; \\Bill\billc\Diffz1.zip;
In-Reply-To:
X-Eudora-Signature: <Standard>

Hi, Rupert --

Here are a couple of pages from my Mathematics Manual. Section 11-4 describes
backward differences, and finishes by showing how to combine them to compute
derivatives. These are zipped bitmap files. Hope this helps.

Best,

Bill P.

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:20:22 -0500
From: isaac <kurtzer@BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PCT Modeling - changing signals
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>i.kurtzer (2000.01.05.1000)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm writing this for Rupert as well as other
other
people that might need some brushing up in Calculus or have not yet been
exposed
to it.  Rupert has a series of timemarked snapshots of some value. 
You could imagine that these are the series of a reference value or a ball's
position after being thrown.  There are two things.  The value and
the
timemark.  We can see that the values are not constant for all the
timemarks.  If they were then plotting this would yield a flat line,
i.e.
parallel with the X-axis.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Instead, at later and later timemarks the values
are larger and larger.  They change and in a particular direction,
increasing.  However, we can also see that during some intervals the
values
have changed by a greater amount than in other intervals.  For example,
in
the first time interval (10.1-10.3) the value changed by .2.  Therefore,
the rate is the change in the value divided by the change in the timemark, or
.2/.2 = 1.  The slope at this point would be 1 since the value is
increasing in equal amounts to the time.  Instead, in the interval
(10.9-11) the values changes by .5.  This is a change of .5/.1, or 5 so
the
slope at this point would be 5 since the value increases by five for
each
unit increase in time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So we can see there is a change in the slope
over
time as well a change in value.  We can therefore ask what is the
slope <FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>of the change in slope.  Each time
we
ask what is the slope of some function when the time intervals approaches the
limit of an instantaneous change then we perform a derivative.  Here the
velocity would be the first derivative and the acceleration, or
change in
velocity, would be the second derivative.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So lets look the same time intervals again and
see
what is their second derivative, or rate of change of rate of change. 
In
the interval in the (10.1-10.3) the slope was 1, in the interval just ahead
of
that (10.3-10.5) the slope was also 1.  So the change in the slope
between
those intervals is zero.  For the interval (10.9-11) the slope
was 5
while the following interval (11-11.2) has a slope of 7.5.  So the
change
in the slope is (7.5-5)/(11-10.9) = 25.  Notice how the slopes were
across
the intervals (10.9-11.2) but the time inteval in question is (10.9-
11). 
We can see the result of this moving down the chart.  We can see a
sucession of slopes (D')of 1 and then the next is 5.  Right of that
(D'')
is a sucession of 0's then a 10 DURING a slope of 1.  That is because
derivatives are phased advanced from their input.  That probably enough
for
now.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To your original question to get the average
velocity over some time interval you ONLY use the change in values over the
change in the time interval.  This is because here the values are
supposed to be continuous.  In this case the answer is
(27-21.6)/(11.5-10.5) or 5.4.  Also, the average velocity approaches the
instantaneous velocity as the interval becomes shorter and shorter. 
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For anyone interested I recommend Finney and
Thomas's "Calculus" or anything you can get your hands on.  When
receiving
my undergrad degree in psychology, basic math was not emphasized. 
Rather I enjoyed a steady diet in courses that self-justified themselves
as
science.  Notice that ONLY psychology and its allied garbage fields have
Experiemental Methods courses.  None in Chemistry, Biology, Geology, or
Physics.  Mmm.   I am still suffering from this neglect but
the
return I've seen so far is worth it.  And anyone that can show that they
have improved their math-lot in the past year can get a kudos and a beer from
me
at the next conference.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>i. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
  <A href="mailto:RYoung@SEEBEYOND.COM" title=RYoung@SEEBEYOND.COM>Rupert
  Young</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
  href="mailto:CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU"
  title=CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU</A>
</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 05, 2001 7:45
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: PCT Modeling - changing
  signals</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <P><FONT size=2>[From Rupert Young (2001.01.05.1300 UT)] </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>i.kurtzer (2001.01.03.1530)</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>> A derivative is the instaneous rate of change of a
  function.  For a short time interval this is the rise over run,
or 
  change in y over change in x.  With your data you would apply the
formula
  (Yi+1-Yi)/(Xi+1-Xi).  If the time sample is larger then the slope is
the
  average rate of change over that interval, although the instanteous rate of
  change may have only occured at that value once, but it HAS to at least
  once.  I typed in the answers in your post. </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Thanks.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>In the table below I can see you got the 7.5 in V'
  from,</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>24 - 22.5</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>--------- = 7.5</FONT>
  <BR><FONT size=2>11.2 - 11</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>but how did you get the 12.5 in V'' ?</FONT> <BR><FONT
  size=2>Also to get the velocity over the period 10.5 to 11.5 do I just take
  the average of the V' values, ie. (1 + 5 + 7.5 + 10.5)/4 = 6 ?</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Time

(
mins)            
Value         

V
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V''</FONT> <BR><FONT

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25</FONT> <BR><FONT

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12.5</FONT> <BR><FONT

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  27.0 </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Cheers,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Rup</FONT>
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From ???@??? Sat Jan 06 08:08:01 2001
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:00:45 -0800
From: Rick Marken <marken@MINDREADINGS.COM>
Organization: MindReadings.com
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: F,<!!Ze0"![h^!!`OO"!

[From Rick Marken (01.01.05.1800)]

Stefan Balke (010105) --

I'm currently writing down my experiences with the German
school project which is based on the RTP... One problem is
that a group of constantly disrupting students write the
same plans with different words over and over again.
... I hope that someone of you has the missing idea

Based on my experience, I would suggest that it is entirely
possible that RTP does not involve having disruptive students
write plans. Remember, what is said in the RTP literature
does not necessarily correspond to what is actually done in
RTP schools. So my idea is that the solution to your problem
is this: ignore what you read (or hear) about RTP and go visit
an RTP school to see what actually happens.

Of course, if your school _is_ an RTP school then I think you're
up a creek without a paddle.

Best regards

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:34:07 -0800
From: Bruce Nevin <bnevin@CISCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
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[From Bruce Nevin (2001.01.05 22:33 EST)]<br>
<br>
<font size=2>Stefan Balke (010105)--<br>
</font>At 08:55 AM 01/03/2001 +0100, Stefan Balke wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite> <br>
<font size=2>I'm currently writing down my experiences with the German
school project which is based on the RTP. </font></blockquote><br>
Did you have a qualified RTP trainer work with your school and help you
to make it an RTP school? Or is this a project "based on" a
reading of the literature and encapsulated somehow within a larger
non-RTP school system?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite><font size=2>One problem is that a group of
constantly disrupting students write the same plans with different words
over and over again. </font></blockquote><br>
Does the RTC teacher accept the same plan each time, and the same
evidence of commitment to the plan, before the student goes back to the
classroom? Does the student negotiate with the teacher for return to the
classroom? Does the teacher accept the plan again and again every time a
student returns with the same plan again and again without (apparently)
seriously acting on it? <br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite><font size=2>Everybody ... knows that the
plans and negotiations are not taken serious. It's a ritual, but nothing
really happens, there is no insight. </font></blockquote><br>
I assume that you mean that everyone knows that these particular students
don't take the plans and negotiations seriously. If you are saying that
no-one in the school takes the program seriously, your problem is much
deeper. But notice that if the answers to the questions above are each a
simple "yes" it may seem that the RTC teacher and the classroom
teacher are not taking the process seriously. And maybe that's correct,
they aren't.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite><font size=2>I think this means that those
students control for not changing anything (or something like that),
because they resist to great disturbances. Now my question is how to deal
with that. My approach is to talk with them about the situation and the
possible outcomes and hoping that they find their way, but to leave them
as they are (not try to change them). Unfortunately this approach
interferes with the wish of most of the teachers who want to save,
educate and/or change them.</font></blockquote><br>
Sounds like counter-control to me. One who feels manipulated can really
get great pleasure from showing that the great manipulator is
powerless!<br>
<br>
When you got your training to become an RTP school (assuming that you
did), what did the trainer say should happen if a student is disruptive
in the RTC? Or if a student refuses to go to the RTC and continues to be
disruptive in the classroom? I'm guessing that by refusing to participate
in the RT Program these students break out of a kind of protected
environment that the program provides for them and become subject to the
officials who enforce laws and government regulations concerning public
education. Is this your understanding? Are your students similarly
jumping out of the boat? Are they exposing themselves to government
sanctions in the same way, have they torn themselves from the protected
environment of the RTP into a larger and less friendly world?<br>
<br>
In certain Native American communities, angry spirit beings (adults in
masks) would enter the communal house and seek out children who were
known to have done bad things. With their towering, fearful faces and
violent gestures hey would go after them with whips. The children's
parents and uncles would get in the way and take the blows on their own
bodies. The children would see their elders being hurt to prevent them
from being hurt. These were people the child cared about. And the child
wasn't brought up on cartoons where such things are funny or films where
you can get used to being an audience to violence that has no impact on
you. <br>
<br>
In this school setting, where is there a relationship between this child
and someone he or she cares about?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite> <font size=2>I want the teachers to
change their way of changing to students. Of course, I should be able to
say: okay, I can't change the teachers as less as they can't change the
students. Fine, but that doesn't lead very far, or did I miss
something?</font></blockquote><br>
The relationship between the teacher and the student is the key, right?
What do they say on the respthink net about this? (I think that's what
it's called.) They're the ones with RTP experience.<br>
<br>
Rick Marken (01.01.05.1800)<br>
At 06:00 PM 01/05/2001 -0800, Rick Marken wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Based on my experience, I would suggest that
it is entirely<br>
possible that RTP does not involve having disruptive students<br>
write plans. Remember, what is said in the RTP literature<br>
does not necessarily correspond to what is actually done in<br>
RTP schools. So my idea is that the solution to your problem<br>
is this: ignore what you read (or hear) about RTP and go visit<br>
an RTP school to see what actually happens.<br>
<br>
Of course, if your school _is_ an RTP school then I think you're<br>
up a creek without a paddle.</blockquote><br>
Clever.<br>
<br>
Wise?<br>
<br>
<x-tab>        </x-tab>Bruce
Nevin<br>
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:19:11 -0800
From: Rick Marken <marken@MINDREADINGS.COM>
Organization: MindReadings.com
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: 20#"!F"!"!T]2"!I@<"!

[From Rick Marken (01.01.05.2020)]

Me:

Of course, if your school _is_ an RTP school then I think
you're up a creek without a paddle.

Bruce Nevin (2001.01.05 22:33 EST)

Clever.

Thanks.

Wise?

In so many ways.

By the way, how many RTP schools have you visited? If it's not
a lot more than 1, then I think you would have to agree that
Stefan would be wise to ignore your guesses and suggestions.

Best

Rick
---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 05:33:42 -0500
From: Bruce Gregory <bruce_gregory@USA.NET>
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
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[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0106.0533)]

Rick Marken (01.01.05.2020)

> Wise?

In so many ways.

I believe that the non-PCT term for this condition is Narcissism. It leads
to a tendency to embrace conspiracy theories and other manifestations of
paranoia..

BG

To: "Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)" <CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
In-Reply-To: <003901c0755a$a1849120$1d3436d5@derbeste>
X-Eudora-Signature: <Standard>

from Bill Powers (2001.01.06.0816 MST)]

from Stefan Balke (010105)--

Here is how your message looked when I called it up to read it. I think
you're sending in HTML instead of plain text.

Best,

Bill P.

] of the teachers who want to save,

educate and/or change them. parties go up a level. Unfortunately I
don't know how to apply this idea to my problem, which is that I want the
teachers to change their way of changing to students. Of course, I should
be able to say: okay, I can't change the teachers as less as they can't
change the students. Fine, but that doesn't lead very far, or did I miss
something? Best regards, Stefan

=

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Message-ID: <003901c0755a$a1849120$1d3436d5@derbeste>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:55:09 +0100
From: Stefan Balke <sbalke@NIKOCITY.DE>
Subject: Changing teachers
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: "V3"!ok="!f=>"!4VK"!

<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>[From Stefan Balke (010105)]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I'm currently writing down my experiences with the German
school project which is based on the RTP. While writing I'm thinking about
the
problems I have with the success of the project at some points. One problem
is
that a group of constantly disrupting students write the same plans with
different words over and over again. Everybody including the students
themself
knows that everybody knows that the plans and negotiations are not taken
serious. It's a ritual, but nothing really happens, there is no insight. I
think this means that those students control for not changing anything
(or
something like that), because they resist to great disturbances. Now my
question
is how to deal with that. My approach is to talk with them about the
situation
and the possible outcomes and hoping that they find their way, but to leave
them
as they are (not try to change them). Unfortunately this approach interferes
with the wish of most of the teachers who want to save, educate and/or
change them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Because it's hard for me to gain the possible distance to
find
a good solution I hope that someone of you has the missing idea (this seems
to
be like going up a  level above myself ). What do you think
would
be the best idea in this conflict. As far as I understand Bill in MSOB it is
necessary that _both_  parties go up a level. Unfortunately I don't know
how to apply this idea to my problem, which is that I want the teachers to
change their way of changing to students. Of course, I should be able to say:
okay, I can't change the teachers as less as they can't change the students.
Fine, but that doesn't lead very far, or did I miss something?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Stefan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From ???@??? Sat Jan 06 08:40:33 2001
To: "Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)" <CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
Cc: Bourbon
Bcc:
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[From Bill Powers (2001.01.06.08 MST)]

Stefan Balke (010105) --

My approach is to talk with them about the situation and the possible
outcomes and hoping that they find their way, but to leave them as they are
(not try to change them). Unfortunately this approach interferes with the

wish >of most of the teachers who want to save, educate and/or change them.

Have you decided that PCT prevents you from changing or wanting to change the
behavior of another person? If so, wouldn't this make it hard to explain why
you are there in the schools, trying to teach RTP?

I think you need advice from a person who is deeply involved with RTP and
wishes to help the program succeed, and who also understands PCT. I'm CCin
this post to Tom Bourbon. (Tom, Stefan's address is sbalke@NIKOCITY.DE). A
direct communication between you two will probably be more useful than
reading the irrelevant accusations and defenses on CSGnet.

Best,

Bill P.

To: Bourbon
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
Subject: Message from Stefan Balke in Germany
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
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Hi, Tom --

Here's a copy of Stefan Balke's message to CSGnet. As I mentioned in the
reply I CC'd to you, direct communication will probably be more useful than
anything being said on CSGnet. I copied the text so I hope it's readable --
the original was in HTML.

Bill

==============================================================================

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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:55:09 +0100
From: Stefan Balke <sbalke@NIKOCITY.DE>
Subject: Changing teachers
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU

[From Stefan Balke (010105)]

I'm currently writing down my experiences with the German school project
which is based on the RTP. While writing I'm thinking about the problems I
have with the success of the project at some points. One problem is that a
group of constantly disrupting students write the same plans with different
words over and over again. Everybody including the students themself knows
that everybody knows that the plans and negotiations are not taken serious.
It's a ritual, but nothing really happens, there is no insight. I think this
means that those students control for not changing anything (or something
like that), because they resist to great disturbances. Now my question is how
to deal with that. My approach is to talk with them about the situation and
the possible outcomes and hoping that they find their way, but to leave them
as they are (not try to change them). Unfortunately this approach interferes
with the wish of most of the teachers who want to save, educate and/or change
them.

Because it's hard for me to gain the possible distance to find a good
solution I hope that someone of you has the missing idea (this seems to be
like going up a level above myself ). What do you think would be the
best idea in this conflict. As far as I understand Bill in MSOB it is
necessary that _both_ parties go up a level. Unfortunately I don't know how
to apply this idea to my problem, which is that I want the teachers to change
their way of changing to students. Of course, I should be able to say: okay,
I can't change the teachers as less as they can't change the students. Fine,
but that doesn't lead very far, or did I miss something?

Best regards,
Stefan

To: Marken2
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
Subject: Your problem
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
In-Reply-To:
X-Eudora-Signature: <Standard>

Hello, Rick:

I think we get your point: if you haven't been to an RTP school, you
shouldn't make assumptions about what goes on in an RTP school, even by
extrapolating from what is said by people who have been there and from what
is in Ed Ford's books. And I agree with that: for example, you shouldn't
scold RTP teachers for saying "I see you have chosen ..." when you don't know
how many of them would have the same objections we have to that strategy, and
never use it. You _can_ object to its being recommended in print by various
people, because you know that it was recommended. But of course you have to
be careful what you accuse even those people of, such as being totally
ignorant of PCT. That phrase has nothing to do with PCT; our objections to it
are not based on a control-system theory of how people work, but on our
personal objections to erroneous claims of mind-reading.

Stefan Balke's problem, of course, has nothing to do with all that; his
problem is that he is trying to implement a program and (without having all
of Ed Ford's tacit assumptions spelled out) doesn't know how to present it
effectively. That program, if successful, wouldn't necessarily be like Ed
Ford's RTP even if Stefan calls it RTP. So what? If we want to help Stefan
succeed, the other matter between you and Ford and Bourbon is irrelevant.

Bill

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:45:08 -0000
From: Rupert Young <RYoung@SEEBEYOND.COM>
Subject: Re: PCT Modeling - changing signals
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: 5<]"!M='!!(P+!!J&j"!

<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: PCT Modeling - changing signals</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>[From Rupert Young (2001.01.05.1300 UT)] </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>i.kurtzer (2001.01.03.1530)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>> A derivative is the instaneous rate of change of a
function.  For a short time interval this is the rise over run, or 
change in y over change in x.  With your data you would apply the
formula (Yi+1-Yi)/(Xi+1-Xi).  If the time sample is larger then the
slope is the average rate of change over that interval, although the
instanteous rate of change may have only occured at that value once, but it
HAS to at least once.  I typed in the answers in your post. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Thanks.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>In the table below I can see you got the 7.5 in V'
from,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>but how did you get the 12.5 in V'' ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Also to get the velocity over the period 10.5 to 11.5 do I
just take the average of the V' values, ie. (1 + 5 + 7.5 + 10.5)/4 = 6
?</FONT></P>

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            12.5</FONT>
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nbsp;           27.0 </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Rup</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML></x-html>From ???@??? Sat Jan 06 08:46:39 2001
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Message-ID: <3A573780.6A36@mindreadings.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 07:19:39 -0800
From: Rick Marken <marken@MINDREADINGS.COM>
Organization: MindReadings.com
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: pg\!!6<M!!_W"!!ED="!

[From Rick Marken (01.01.06.0720)]

Bruce Nevin (2001.01.05 22:33 EST) --

Did you have a qualified RTP trainer work with your school
and help you to make it an RTP school?

There is no way that a qualified trainer can help. Since neither
the RTP literature, which is written by qualified RTP trainers,
nor RTP tutorials, presented at CSG meetings by qualified RTP
trainers, can teach a person what actually goes on in an RTP
school, there is nothing Stefan could learn about RTP from a
qualified trainer. The only way for _anyone_ to learn RTP is by
visiting RTP schools; the more the better.

When you got your training to become an RTP school (assuming
that you did), what did the trainer say should happen if a
student is disruptive in the RTC?

What a trainer _or_ the literature says about this is irrelevant.
The only way to know what goes on in an RTP school is by visiting
RTP schools. You, of all people, should know this.

The relationship between the teacher and the student is the key,
right? What do they say on the respthink net about this? (I think
that's what it's called.) They're the ones with RTP experience.

Anything that is said about RTP on respthink, like all other
literature on RTP, is irrelevant. There is no way to verbally
communicate what does (or should) go on in an RTP school. The
only way to learn what goes on in an RTP school is by visiting an
RTP school. RTP can only be understood empirically. There is no way
to describe it in words. Therefore, verbal discussion of RTP is
manifestly worthless, at best, or misleading at worst. Stefan's
only hope is, therefore, to visit one or more RTP schools.

Best regards

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:50:23 -0800
From: Bruce Nevin <bnevin@CISCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
Comments: cc: bn@cisco.com
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
In-Reply-To: <3A573780.6A36@mindreadings.com>
X-UIDL: 4l3"!7[4"!p?$!!T:R!!

[From Bruce Nevin (2001.01.06 15:50 EST)]

Rick Marken (01.01.06.0720)--
At 07:19 AM 01/06/2001 -0800, Rick Marken wrote:

Since neither
the RTP literature, which is written by qualified RTP trainers,
nor RTP tutorials, presented at CSG meetings by qualified RTP
trainers, can teach a person what actually goes on in an RTP
school, there is nothing Stefan could learn about RTP from a
qualified trainer. The only way for _anyone_ to learn RTP is by
visiting RTP schools; the more the better.

Your posture seems to be that because Ed Ford's advice, written some years
ago, that the teacher should say "I see that you have chosen to go to the
RTC" is not followed in practice (and indeed is probably now identified as
bad practice), therefore nothing in the RTP literature is useful or reliable.

This is a fallacious argument form. I won't bore you with the name. By the
same argument, because Bill has changed his mind about the details of the
perceptual hierarchy over the years since 1973, B:CP is therefore
unreliable and useless, and no one should read it. And of course the
absurdity of your advice is obvious as soon as you ask about the origin of
some first RTP school that others could visit in order to learn.

Ed and Tom and others have made it very clear that training is essential to
creating an RTP school. It would be astonishing if it were not. The
training is much more extensive than a seminar or tutorial at a conference.
It appears to involve everyone in the school -- administrators, teachers,
staff, students, and parents.

I'm sure visiting a successful RTP school would be helpful in this
training, though not practical for all those people. Observation of RTP
schools is a prerequisite for making empirical claims about RTP. Your
posture above confuses these two very different purposes.

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Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 09:01:10 -0800
From: Rick Marken <marken@mindreadings.com>
Organization: MindReadings.com
To: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
Subject: Re: Your problem
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Hi Bill --

I think we get your point:

I hope so.

And I agree with that: for example, you shouldn't scold RTP
teachers for saying "I see you have chosen ..." when you don't
know how many of them would have the same objections we have
to that strategy, and never use it.

Right. And I have never done so.

You _can_ object to its being recommended in print by various
people

Which is all I have done. But you have joined with Tom and the
rest of the RTP crew in demanding that I stop objecting to this
recommendation because I don't know what really goes on in RTP
schools. The point of my current posts is to show where this
leads; if I cannot say anything about the program based on what I
read and hear from RTP experts because what I read and hear may
have nothing to do with what actually goes on in the program then
that applies to everyone: what they read and hear about the program
has nothing to do with what goes on in the program. Hence, there
is no way to learn about the program by reading or hearing about it.
And, of course, there is also no reason to comment on what is
said about the program because those comments would be just as
meaningless since they pertain to meaningless descriptions of the
program. Empiricism only, remember.

But of course you have to be careful what you accuse even those
people of, such as being totally ignorant of PCT.

I don't recall accusing anyone of being totally (or even
partially) ignorant of PCT. I do think I have said that Tom now
has goals that are more important to him than PCT but I don't
think Tom is ignorant of PCT; he has made up some stuff that I
do find troubling (such as the "it's not controlling if the other
person wants to do it anyway") but I don't think that's a result
of ignorance, which I actually find more depressing than if it were.

Stefan Balke's problem, of course, has nothing to do with all
that;

I know. My posts are not for Stefan's sake; he's a nice guy and
I've had some nice off-line discussions with him. My recent
schtick on "you can't know anything about RTP unless you've
been to an RTP school" is for your sake and Nevin's and the rest
who have tried to shut me up with this silly ruse. I'm just
sticking with what you guys have told me; you don't know anything
about RTP (and can't say anything about it) unless you've seen
the schools.

That program, if successful, wouldn't necessarily be like Ed
Ford's RTP even if Stefan calls it RTP. So what?

Hey, I'm on Stefan's side. But I can't say anything about it
becuase I haven't been to a school. And people who have been to
schools can't say anything about it because what they say cannot
be trusted: that's what you've said. The only way to know how to
implement RTP is to visit schools. That is the implications of
the bullshit Tom and you and the rest of the RTP crowd have
been throwing at me. So I have listened and learned.

If we want to help Stefan succeed, the other matter between
you and Ford and Bourbon is irrelevant.

There is no "matter" between them and me except their hatred of me.
Anyway, I can't help Stefan, according to you guys. And neither can
you or Ed or Tom or PCT. Stefan must go to RTP schools and see
the magic and then practice it. He can't even tell his own people
how to do it; they would have to go see it too. Since what is
said about the program is always meaningless, there is only one
way to learn it: by going to see an RTP school in person. That's
what you seem to believe so I hope you will either apply it
to everyone (not just to me) or, better yet, come to your senses
and see what's going on!

Best

Rick
--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

To: marken@mindreadings.com
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
Subject: Re: Your problem
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
In-Reply-To: <3A574F35.39C5@mindreadings.com>
X-Eudora-Signature: <Standard>

Hi, Rick --

You're using the following logic:

1. You say I can't know whether teachers actually use the "I see you have
chosen ..." tactic in RTP classrooms without observing such classes and
seeing for myself.

2. What you mean is that nobody can know anything about what goes on in RTP
classrooms from hearing about or reading about what is said to be done or
what its leaders say should be done.

3. Therefore nobody should say anything about RTP at all.

Of course (2) and (3) are strictly your way of making the original argument
ridiculous by carrying the others' point of view to an extreme, and then
attributing that extreme view to them. This is one type of "straw man"
argument. It isn't likely to be any more effective than it is original.

You can't just _pretend_ to go up a level.

Bill

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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:45:29 +0100
From: Stefan Balke <sbalke@NIKOCITY.DE>
Subject: Re: Changing teachers
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU
X-UIDL: SW3!!4nA!!d6^!!We/"!

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<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>[From Stefan Balke
(2001.01.07)]</FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=2>While rereading my note I noticed an
error</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>I said: I don't want to work for people,
who _already_ work with obedience and coercion as a means
of<BR>education.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>I should be: I don't want to work for people,
who _still_ work with obedience and coercion as a means
of<BR>education.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=3></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>Stefan</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From ???@??? Sun Jan 07 08:11:25 2001

new control systems

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p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p; 25</FONT>
<BR><FONT
S
I
Z
E

7
.
5
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
12.5</FONT>
<BR><FONT
S
I
Z
E

2
4
.
0
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p
;
&
n
b
s
p; 10</FONT>
<BR><FONT
S
I
Z
E