new economic visions

http://www.alternet.org/story/155339/there_is_a_way%21_beyond_the_big%2C_bad_corporation?page=entire

This appears to be the first article. One model discussed briefly is an employee owned corporation, with employee elected board representatives. This sounds pretty good initially, but I wonder if it makes any difference in the compensation of the CEO. Does he or she still get as much as 500 times more than the bottom tier? Or do these companies reduce this disparity? Is it one vote per person or one vote per share? If it is per share a few well paid employees could effectively determine virtually all major decisions regarding policy and procedures and directions of the business.

I joined a credit union 30 some years ago, but it was because they offered better rates, not because I owned part of it. I have never been a participant in the governance of that organization. Maybe I will rethink my own apathy.

bob

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 22 2231 MDT]

http://www.alternet.org/story/155339/there_is_a_way%21_beyond_the_big%2C_bad_corporation?page=entire

This appears to be the first article. One model discussed briefly is an employee owned corporation, with employee elected board representatives. This sounds pretty good initially, but I wonder if it makes any difference in the compensation of the CEO. Does he or she still get as much as 500 times more than the bottom tier? Or do these companies reduce this disparity? Is it one vote per person or one vote per share? If it is per share a few well paid employees could effectively determine virtually all major decisions regarding policy and procedures and directions of the business.

Such companies are consistent with a capitalist free market system. We would probably have more such corporations, and higher public participation in ownership of more typical companies if the returns were better and the risks were lower. The structural bias towards risky leverage due to the double taxation of the returns to equity (ownership) while debt financing is single taxed turns our stock markets into casinos and concentrates corporate power in the hands of the few. Those in power actually prefer debt financing, since it allows them to finance control more assets without diluting their ownership.

– Martin L

···

On 5/22/12 6:43 PM, “Bob Hintz” bob.hintz@GMAIL.COM wrote:

I joined a credit union 30 some years ago, but it was because they offered better rates, not because I owned part of it. I have never been a participant in the governance of that organization. Maybe I will rethink my own apathy.

bob

[bob hintz 2012 may 22]

I need a little help on equity vs debt financing and double taxation vs single taxation. Am I double taxed when I pay income tax on money I receive and then pay sales tax on that same money when I spend it?

bob

···

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Martin Lewitt mlewitt@comcast.net wrote:

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 22 2231 MDT]

On 5/22/12 6:43 PM, “Bob Hintz” bob.hintz@GMAIL.COM wrote:

http://www.alternet.org/story/155339/there_is_a_way%21_beyond_the_big%2C_bad_corporation?page=entire

This appears to be the first article. One model discussed briefly is an employee owned corporation, with employee elected board representatives. This sounds pretty good initially, but I wonder if it makes any difference in the compensation of the CEO. Does he or she still get as much as 500 times more than the bottom tier? Or do these companies reduce this disparity? Is it one vote per person or one vote per share? If it is per share a few well paid employees could effectively determine virtually all major decisions regarding policy and procedures and directions of the business.

Such companies are consistent with a capitalist free market system. We would probably have more such corporations, and higher public participation in ownership of more typical companies if the returns were better and the risks were lower. The structural bias towards risky leverage due to the double taxation of the returns to equity (ownership) while debt financing is single taxed turns our stock markets into casinos and concentrates corporate power in the hands of the few. Those in power actually prefer debt financing, since it allows them to finance control more assets without diluting their ownership.

– Martin L

I joined a credit union 30 some years ago, but it was because they offered better rates, not because I owned part of it. I have never been a participant in the governance of that organization. Maybe I will rethink my own apathy.

bob

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.23.1140)]

[bob hintz 2012 may 22] in reply to Martin Lewitt

BH: I need a little help on equity vs debt financing and double taxation vs single taxation.

RM: Me too!!

BH: Am I double taxed when I pay income tax on money I receive and then pay sales tax on that same money when I spend it?

RM: I’d like to know if I could have bought my house using an IPO;-)

Best

Rick

···

bob

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Martin Lewitt mlewitt@comcast.net wrote:

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 22 2231 MDT]

On 5/22/12 6:43 PM, “Bob Hintz” bob.hintz@GMAIL.COM wrote:

http://www.alternet.org/story/155339/there_is_a_way%21_beyond_the_big%2C_bad_corporation?page=entire

This appears to be the first article. One model discussed briefly is an employee owned corporation, with employee elected board representatives. This sounds pretty good initially, but I wonder if it makes any difference in the compensation of the CEO. Does he or she still get as much as 500 times more than the bottom tier? Or do these companies reduce this disparity? Is it one vote per person or one vote per share? If it is per share a few well paid employees could effectively determine virtually all major decisions regarding policy and procedures and directions of the business.

Such companies are consistent with a capitalist free market system. We would probably have more such corporations, and higher public participation in ownership of more typical companies if the returns were better and the risks were lower. The structural bias towards risky leverage due to the double taxation of the returns to equity (ownership) while debt financing is single taxed turns our stock markets into casinos and concentrates corporate power in the hands of the few. Those in power actually prefer debt financing, since it allows them to finance control more assets without diluting their ownership.

– Martin L

I joined a credit union 30 some years ago, but it was because they offered better rates, not because I owned part of it. I have never been a participant in the governance of that organization. Maybe I will rethink my own apathy.

bob


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 23 1353 MDT]

[bob hintz 2012 may 22]

I need a little help on equity vs debt financing and double taxation vs single taxation. Am I double taxed when I pay income tax on money I receive and then pay sales tax on that same money when I spend it?

Yes, although for those living in states without income taxes the two are by different entities. Don’t worry though, if it makes you feel better those with double taxed equity income are triple taxed in such circumstances, to the extent that they consume rather than save and invest.

– Martin L

···

On 5/23/12 11:41 AM, “Bob Hintz” bob.hintz@GMAIL.COM wrote:

bob

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Martin Lewitt mlewitt@comcast.net wrote:

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 22 2231 MDT]

On 5/22/12 6:43 PM, “Bob Hintz” bob.hintz@GMAIL.COM wrote:

http://www.alternet.org/story/155339/there_is_a_way%21_beyond_the_big%2C_bad_corporation?page=entire

This appears to be the first article. One model discussed briefly is an employee owned corporation, with employee elected board representatives. This sounds pretty good initially, but I wonder if it makes any difference in the compensation of the CEO. Does he or she still get as much as 500 times more than the bottom tier? Or do these companies reduce this disparity? Is it one vote per person or one vote per share? If it is per share a few well paid employees could effectively determine virtually all major decisions regarding policy and procedures and directions of the business.

Such companies are consistent with a capitalist free market system. We would probably have more such corporations, and higher public participation in ownership of more typical companies if the returns were better and the risks were lower. The structural bias towards risky leverage due to the double taxation of the returns to equity (ownership) while debt financing is single taxed turns our stock markets into casinos and concentrates corporate power in the hands of the few. Those in power actually prefer debt financing, since it allows them to finance control more assets without diluting their ownership.

– Martin L

I joined a credit union 30 some years ago, but it was because they offered better rates, not because I owned part of it. I have never been a participant in the governance of that organization. Maybe I will rethink my own apathy.

bob

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.23.1345)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 23 1353 MDT)–

[bob hintz 2012 may 22]

BH: I need a little help on equity vs debt financing and double taxation vs single taxation. Am I double taxed when I pay income tax on money I receive and then pay sales tax on that same money when I spend it?

ML: Yes, although for those living in states without income taxes the two are by different entities.

RM: Could you please answer the first part of Bob’s first question, please. What is the difference between equity and debt financing? This seems to be important to your analysis of the economy so it would be nice if we could find out what it is.

RSM

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

bob hintz [2012 may 22]

I have done some reading and would like to check my understanding. If I own a business and am the sole participant any profit (income - expenses) is mine and I am only taxed once. If I want to expand and I have some extra cash, I can hire someone to help me produce more and hopefully earn more to cover the cost of this employee plus some additional profit for myself. If I do not have extra cash, I can seek to borrow money (debt finance) to support the addition of this employee. This money will cost me extra money (interest) which is an expense for operating my business as well as the salary I pay the employee. A lender must decide that I am worth the risk and will repay the money plus the interest. If no one will lend me money, I might be able to find someone to join the business for percent of the profit (sweat equity? finance or maybe a partnership). Such a person will have a personal stake in the success of the business. This person will also be able to compare the contributions that each of us make and may want to renegotiate after a time. Finally, I can only find someone who is willing to buy some part of my business for X amount of dollars (equity finance?). This person will receive a fixed percent of the profit forever and is betting that it will be more valuable than the amount invested. There is still no double taxation as I understand the term.

I must turn my business into a corporation, which makes it an extra person of legal sort, if I want to claim double taxation. I don’t yet understand why I would want to do this, but when I turn my business into a separate entity it is subject to taxes on its profit. If I am hired by the corporation to run the business, I am an expense and my salary is not taxed as part of the corporate profit and the part of the profit that I get as an owner is taxed very differently from the money I got as salary. It would seem to me that I would want the smallest salary that I could get by on, if I wanted to reduce my tax burden. When managers are not owners, I suppose they want the most salary they can get from the owners (stock holders), but I don’t understand why owners would want to pay managers any more than they had to as it would be a form of labor.

Am I getting the basic structure of these ideas?

bob

···

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.23.1345)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 23 1353 MDT)–

[bob hintz 2012 may 22]

BH: I need a little help on equity vs debt financing and double taxation vs single taxation. Am I double taxed when I pay income tax on money I receive and then pay sales tax on that same money when I spend it?

ML: Yes, although for those living in states without income taxes the two are by different entities.

RM: Could you please answer the first part of Bob’s first question, please. What is the difference between equity and debt financing? This seems to be important to your analysis of the economy so it would be nice if we could find out what it is.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 24 0331 MDT]

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.23.1345)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 23 1353 MDT)–

[bob hintz 2012 may 22]

BH: I need a little help on equity vs debt financing and double taxation vs single taxation. Am I double taxed when I pay income tax on money I receive and then pay sales tax on that same money when I spend it?

ML: Yes, although for those living in states without income taxes the two are by different entities.

RM: Could you please answer the first part of Bob’s first question, please. What is the difference between equity and debt financing? This seems to be important to your analysis of the economy so it would be nice if we could find out what it is.

I believe the first statement was just a setup for the explicit question, but happy to accommodate. Debt financing is the borrowing of money and does not increase the net value of the company, because assets added to the company via borrowing are offset on the balance sheet by the obligation to repay the funds borrowed with interest usually under fixed inflexible terms. In equity financing, those supplying funds receive an ownership interest in the enterprise. The asset value of the company is increased without any debt on the balance sheet. Those who become owners generally do so in the hope that the value of the enterprise will increase and/or profits will be distributed. Profits don’t have to be distributed, and generally can’t unless debt obligations are met first. Under fundamental analysis the value of an ownership interest is the net expected value of its future dividend stream. An enterprise financed by the input of assets and retention of earnings by owners is generally on a sounder financial basis than one with heavy debt obligations.

Distribution of profits to owners is a more flexible way of financing than debt, which generally has fixed inflexible terms for repayment. Dividend payments are discretionary, and can be suspended during recessions and other periods of difficulty. A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Ronald Reagan favored elimination of the double tax on dividends, but dropped the issue in the face of class warfare rhetoric. GW Bush also tried to eliminate this structural bias in the tax system, and through persistence managed to partially reduce it. Obama and the democrats, of course, are demagoguing the issue, to the detriment of the very working class constituents who are most impacted by recessions.

– Martin L

···

On 5/23/12 2:44 PM, “Richard Marken” rsmarken@GMAIL.COM wrote:

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Jim Wuwert 2012 May 24 0815 EDT

I just want to say that I think these are some great questions below. This is a good discussion. Good questions and great responses.

I checked out the New Economy website and it seems like groups like that and the “Occupy” group all seem to have no clear purpose. They do not seem to have any steady source of revenue to keep them sustainable. It is a model based on donations from people.
They ask for donations on their website. So, person X has to earn money somewhere else and then donate money to the cause. In our global economy (like it or love it) money is the driver to sustainability (unless you are able to barter for everything).

What I hear the “New Economy” and “Occupy” folks saying is that they want to have their own sustainable business to manage and gain profits. I agree that it is difficult (due to absurd regulations) for a common “Joe or Jane” to do this easily. You need lots
of money to jump through all the hoops. Thus, the big businesses thrive and the little guy closes his shop. Enter “Occupy,” “Tea Party,” and "New Economy. " So, why not lift regulations and make it easier for each person to form their own corporation? If that
person wants to work with another person, then they form a joint venture or even possibly a larger corporation with each holding stock in that company. They work together to make a product or provide a service. It is shared ownership like the “New Economy”
and “Occupy” people state that they want. I feel it is what democrats and republicans want, but nobody wants to say it. All of them demonize each other to hold on to their artifical power.

I know one may ask, well who is going to regulate each individual corporation? Answer: The common Joe. If you make a product that harms people, then people will stop doing business with you. Isn’t that what we (Occupy, Tea Party, etc) want when someone
harms the consumer? Do we really want businesses that are going to cut corners, so that it harms the workers (i.e. coal mines -per article on New Economy website)? Let the people (not government) regulate it and these guys will not be in business very long.

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 24 0331 MDT]

[bob hintz 2012 may 22]

BH: I need a little help on equity vs debt financing and double taxation vs single taxation. Am I double taxed when I pay income tax on money I receive and then pay sales tax on that same money when I spend it?

RM: Could you please answer the first part of Bob’s first question, please. What is the difference between equity and debt financing? This seems to be important to your analysis of the economy so it would be nice if we could find out what it is.

I believe the first statement was just a setup for the explicit question, but happy to accommodate. Debt financing is the borrowing of money and does not increase the net value of the company, because assets added to the company via borrowing are offset
on the balance sheet by the obligation to repay the funds borrowed with interest usually under fixed inflexible terms. In equity financing, those supplying funds receive an ownership interest in the enterprise. The asset value of the company is increased
without any debt on the balance sheet. Those who become owners generally do so in the hope that the value of the enterprise will increase and/or profits will be distributed. Profits don’t have to be distributed, and generally can’t unless debt obligations
are met first. Under fundamental analysis the value of an ownership interest is the net expected value of its future dividend stream. An enterprise financed by the input of assets and retention of earnings by owners is generally on a sounder financial
basis than one with heavy debt obligations.

Distribution of profits to owners is a more flexible way of financing than debt, which generally has fixed inflexible terms for repayment. Dividend payments are discretionary, and can be suspended during recessions and other periods of difficulty. A
tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases
the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of
view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Ronald Reagan favored elimination of the double tax on dividends, but dropped the issue in the face of class warfare rhetoric. GW Bush also tried to eliminate this structural bias in the tax system, and through persistence managed to partially reduce
it. Obama and the democrats, of course, are demagoguing the issue, to the detriment of the very working class constituents who are most impacted by recessions.

– Martin L

All e-mail correspondence to and from this address is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law, which may result in monitoring and disclosure to third parties, including law enforcement. AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY/AFFIRMATIVE ACTION EMPLOYER

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

bob hintz [2012 may 24]

I would like to bring back up a point that Rick made a short while ago regarding the degree of inequality that is most desirable. He suggested that total equality would result in stagnation (no incentive to change) and absolute inequality (one gets everything) would result in annihilation (everyone else dies before the one who dies last). Without some idea of what would be at least adequate to avoid both extremes, the data won’t provide any clue about what direction we might want to influence the variables. Or even what variables we might want to consider as relevant.

I have heard that Henry Ford claimed that his workers should be paid well enough to be able to purchase the cars they were helping to assemble. Do we need some definition of what a living wage is at the bottom, which would then imply (given finite resources) what a maximum wage might be at the top. If the “pie” gets larger, should everyone have a little more or only the top?

The latest installment of the new economy focuses on community wealth and the value of keeping profit within the collectivity that produces them. If owners are also workers, they have a reason to want good jobs, good neighborhoods, good community services, etc., rather than simply monetary return of investment. This is somewhat like the changing value of houses. For some thirty years houses were investments rather than homes. Their value depended on a market assessment rather than their use to the owner. Houses are once again becoming valuable as homes and living rather than ways to make money.

bob

···

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.24.1550)]

bob hintz [2012 may 24]

BH: I would like to bring back up a point that Rick made a short while ago regarding the degree of inequality that is most desirable.

RM: Great idea!!

BH: He suggested that total equality would result in stagnation (no incentive to change) and absolute inequality (one gets everything) would result in annihilation (everyone else dies before the one who dies last).

RM: I actually suggested only that total equality might be a bit boring. I don;t believe that incentives – in the form of outside events like rewards and punishments that cause (or motivate) people to do things. From a PCT perspective, an incentive is just a disturbance to a controlled variable. For example, money is an incentive only to people who are controlling for having more money. Since most people probably are controlling for having more money, offering monetary rewards contingent on certain actions will appear to be a general incentive. But money will only be an incentive to those wanting more of it; the same money will have no incentive effect on people like Gandhi or Jesus.

Without some idea of what would be at least adequate to avoid both extremes, the data won’t provide any clue about what direction we might want to influence the variables. Or even what variables we might want to consider as relevant.

I have heard that Henry Ford claimed that his workers should be paid well enough to be able to purchase the cars they were helping to assemble. Do we need some definition of what a living wage is at the bottom, which would then imply (given finite resources) what a maximum wage might be at the top. If the “pie” gets larger, should everyone have a little more or only the top?

The latest installment of the new economy focuses on community wealth and the value of keeping profit within the collectivity that produces them. If owners are also workers, they have a reason to want good jobs, good neighborhoods, good community services, etc., rather than simply monetary return of investment.

Seems like a good idea to me. I think a problem is that such a business probably wouldn’t succeed in competition with others where the workers are just “overhead” that drives up the price of the product. But maybe not.

Best

Rick

···

This is somewhat like the changing value of houses. For some thirty years houses were investments rather than homes. Their value depended on a market assessment rather than their use to the owner. Houses are once again becoming valuable as homes and living rather than ways to make money.

bob

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

bob hintz [2012 may 25]

I don’t know if this counts as data, but there are items presented as factual information. Apparently the US already leads many parts of the industrial world in equity financing and this may be contributing to our problems. It also seems that value based banks and other financial institutions can do well by doing good locally. The Bank of North Dakota seems to be an especially good idea and evidently many other states are considering this a possible model for the future.

It may be our pessimism is part of what keeps us from committing to change even in the face of obvious resistance from those who are benefiting from the current arrangements.

bob

···

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.24.1550)]

bob hintz [2012 may 24]

BH: I would like to bring back up a point that Rick made a short while ago regarding the degree of inequality that is most desirable.

RM: Great idea!!

BH: He suggested that total equality would result in stagnation (no incentive to change) and absolute inequality (one gets everything) would result in annihilation (everyone else dies before the one who dies last).

RM: I actually suggested only that total equality might be a bit boring. I don;t believe that incentives – in the form of outside events like rewards and punishments that cause (or motivate) people to do things. From a PCT perspective, an incentive is just a disturbance to a controlled variable. For example, money is an incentive only to people who are controlling for having more money. Since most people probably are controlling for having more money, offering monetary rewards contingent on certain actions will appear to be a general incentive. But money will only be an incentive to those wanting more of it; the same money will have no incentive effect on people like Gandhi or Jesus.

Without some idea of what would be at least adequate to avoid both extremes, the data won’t provide any clue about what direction we might want to influence the variables. Or even what variables we might want to consider as relevant.

I have heard that Henry Ford claimed that his workers should be paid well enough to be able to purchase the cars they were helping to assemble. Do we need some definition of what a living wage is at the bottom, which would then imply (given finite resources) what a maximum wage might be at the top. If the “pie” gets larger, should everyone have a little more or only the top?

The latest installment of the new economy focuses on community wealth and the value of keeping profit within the collectivity that produces them. If owners are also workers, they have a reason to want good jobs, good neighborhoods, good community services, etc., rather than simply monetary return of investment.

Seems like a good idea to me. I think a problem is that such a business probably wouldn’t succeed in competition with others where the workers are just “overhead” that drives up the price of the product. But maybe not.

Best

Rick

This is somewhat like the changing value of houses. For some thirty years houses were investments rather than homes. Their value depended on a market assessment rather than their use to the owner. Houses are once again becoming valuable as homes and living rather than ways to make money.

bob

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

I forgot to attach the article

cooperative banks.pdf (61 KB)

···

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Bob Hintz bob.hintz@gmail.com wrote:

bob hintz [2012 may 25]

I don’t know if this counts as data, but there are items presented as factual information. Apparently the US already leads many parts of the industrial world in equity financing and this may be contributing to our problems. It also seems that value based banks and other financial institutions can do well by doing good locally. The Bank of North Dakota seems to be an especially good idea and evidently many other states are considering this a possible model for the future.

It may be our pessimism is part of what keeps us from committing to change even in the face of obvious resistance from those who are benefiting from the current arrangements.

bob

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.24.1550)]

bob hintz [2012 may 24]

BH: I would like to bring back up a point that Rick made a short while ago regarding the degree of inequality that is most desirable.

RM: Great idea!!

BH: He suggested that total equality would result in stagnation (no incentive to change) and absolute inequality (one gets everything) would result in annihilation (everyone else dies before the one who dies last).

RM: I actually suggested only that total equality might be a bit boring. I don;t believe that incentives – in the form of outside events like rewards and punishments that cause (or motivate) people to do things. From a PCT perspective, an incentive is just a disturbance to a controlled variable. For example, money is an incentive only to people who are controlling for having more money. Since most people probably are controlling for having more money, offering monetary rewards contingent on certain actions will appear to be a general incentive. But money will only be an incentive to those wanting more of it; the same money will have no incentive effect on people like Gandhi or Jesus.

Without some idea of what would be at least adequate to avoid both extremes, the data won’t provide any clue about what direction we might want to influence the variables. Or even what variables we might want to consider as relevant.

I have heard that Henry Ford claimed that his workers should be paid well enough to be able to purchase the cars they were helping to assemble. Do we need some definition of what a living wage is at the bottom, which would then imply (given finite resources) what a maximum wage might be at the top. If the “pie” gets larger, should everyone have a little more or only the top?

The latest installment of the new economy focuses on community wealth and the value of keeping profit within the collectivity that produces them. If owners are also workers, they have a reason to want good jobs, good neighborhoods, good community services, etc., rather than simply monetary return of investment.

Seems like a good idea to me. I think a problem is that such a business probably wouldn’t succeed in competition with others where the workers are just “overhead” that drives up the price of the product. But maybe not.

Best

Rick

This is somewhat like the changing value of houses. For some thirty years houses were investments rather than homes. Their value depended on a market assessment rather than their use to the owner. Houses are once again becoming valuable as homes and living rather than ways to make money.

bob

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 26 1906 MDT]

The article doesn’t support your conclusions. If upon that basis, US leadership in equity financing can be cited as contributing to US problems, then lack of equity financing can be cite as contributing to the problems of Europe and Japan. However, the equity financing comparison in the article is not based upon equity financing as a proportion of all financing, but just based upon total value of the stock compared to the GDP. The US has a higher proportion of the leading multinational companies, so its stock value looks higher to its own economy because it’s really comparison should be to the world economy.

Banks are essentially utilities granted monopoly government licenses to print money, and a tax advantaged status for their product (interest on debt is deductable). The should be regulated and required to segregate their utility operations from their operations for their own account.

The short time horizon of the US corporate decision making is in part attributable to the double taxation of returns to equity. Since the real returns are doing to the interest on debt, the equity holders are risking little and essentially playing with other peoples money, this leads to a shorter term gambling and risk taking mentality.

Martin L

···

On 5/25/12 8:23 PM, “Bob Hintz” bob.hintz@GMAIL.COM wrote:

I forgot to attach the article

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Bob Hintz bob.hintz@gmail.com wrote:

bob hintz [2012 may 25]

I don’t know if this counts as data, but there are items presented as factual information. Apparently the US already leads many parts of the industrial world in equity financing and this may be contributing to our problems. It also seems that value based banks and other financial institutions can do well by doing good locally. The Bank of North Dakota seems to be an especially good idea and evidently many other states are considering this a possible model for the future.

It may be our pessimism is part of what keeps us from committing to change even in the face of obvious resistance from those who are benefiting from the current arrangements.

bob

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.24.1550)]

bob hintz [2012 may 24]

BH: I would like to bring back up a point that Rick made a short while ago regarding the degree of inequality that is most desirable.

RM: Great idea!!

BH: He suggested that total equality would result in stagnation (no incentive to change) and absolute inequality (one gets everything) would result in annihilation (everyone else dies before the one who dies last).

RM: I actually suggested only that total equality might be a bit boring. I don;t believe that incentives – in the form of outside events like rewards and punishments that cause (or motivate) people to do things. From a PCT perspective, an incentive is just a disturbance to a controlled variable. For example, money is an incentive only to people who are controlling for having more money. Since most people probably are controlling for having more money, offering monetary rewards contingent on certain actions will appear to be a general incentive. But money will only be an incentive to those wanting more of it; the same money will have no incentive effect on people like Gandhi or Jesus.

Without some idea of what would be at least adequate to avoid both extremes, the data won’t provide any clue about what direction we might want to influence the variables. Or even what variables we might want to consider as relevant.

I have heard that Henry Ford claimed that his workers should be paid well enough to be able to purchase the cars they were helping to assemble. Do we need some definition of what a living wage is at the bottom, which would then imply (given finite resources) what a maximum wage might be at the top. If the “pie” gets larger, should everyone have a little more or only the top?

The latest installment of the new economy focuses on community wealth and the value of keeping profit within the collectivity that produces them. If owners are also workers, they have a reason to want good jobs, good neighborhoods, good community services, etc., rather than simply monetary return of investment.

Seems like a good idea to me. I think a problem is that such a business probably wouldn’t succeed in competition with others where the workers are just “overhead” that drives up the price of the product. But maybe not.

Best

Rick

This is somewhat like the changing value of houses. For some thirty years houses were investments rather than homes. Their value depended on a market assessment rather than their use to the owner. Houses are once again becoming valuable as homes and living rather than ways to make money.

bob

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.28…1030)]

bob hintz [2012 may 25]

RM: I don’t know if this counts as data, but there are items presented as factual information. Apparently the US already leads many parts of the industrial world in equity financing and this may be contributing to our problems. It also seems that value based banks and other financial institutions can do well by doing good locally. The Bank of North Dakota seems to be an especially good idea and evidently many other states are considering this a possible model for the future.

I’m sure this is a very good idea but it seems to me that this is just working around the edges of the economic catastrophe that began in the US in 1980. The catastrophe is shown clearly in these charts:

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday

There are several possible explanations of the data shown in these charts. One is the invention of the personal computer (around 1979). Another is the three mile island accident (also around 1979). Another is the break up of the Beatles (1979). Another is that there is no catastrophe at all; what we see in these charts is the way things should be.

My opinion is that these data show a terrible catastrophe – the end of a society where everyone fairly shares in the fruits of what they produce-- and that this was clearly the result of the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980. Reagan was elected on a “government is bad” platform, which legitimatized the idea that taxes are bad (rather than a social responsibility) , government spending is always wasteful (rather than an investment in common infrastructure) and regulations are unnecessary weights on economic vitality (rather than protection from fraud and harm).

I think the data presented above show conclusively that this “free market” approach to the economy has been disastrous. Since Reagan was elected we have reduced taxes, reduced spending on infrastructure (and increased it on defense so there has really been no net change in spending, resulting in the huge increase in debt that also began in 1980) and eliminated regulations and the result has been (as can be seen in the chart) no improvement in economic growth and a redistribution of the fruits of this growth to the top tier of the population.

So I think that the first step towards fixing the economy simply means going back to the economic and social policies that existed pre-Reagan and start again from there. Of course, that’s not going to happen, now that the US government has been put up for sale thanks to the bloodless fascist coup that was the Citizen’s United decision. So I don’t foresee much progress for the US economically (that is, in terms of equitable distribution of wealth) unless, by some miracle, Obama is not only re-elected but also given a strong majority in the house and a filibuster proof majority in the Senate.

But we can always relax knowing that eventually the super-volcano that is the Yellowstone caldera will eventually erupt (within the next 500,000 years, I believe) ending the brief tenure on this planet of our sometimes wondrous but too often awful species of hominid.

Best regards

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2012 May 28 1347 MDT]

The Federal Reserve started treating returns to labor as inflationary and would crack down whenever wages started to rise. The Fed is supposed to allow the market to determine the allocation of the returns from increased productivity between capital and labor, but instead favored capital, which also favored government, since capital is double taxed. That and globalization, which was actually a benefit to the poor, not the US poor but the really poor elsewhere in the world. Japan, Korea and Taiwan rose out of poverty back then, and since then it is hundreds of millions in China and India. You can call globalization a catastrophe, if you are of a xenophobic bent.

Also, the charts are deceptive, because productivity was not rising in the latter period by the definition used in the earlier period, they didn’t originally know how to measure productivity in a service economy, and the US was in the transition to a service economy. Household wealth was increasing due to women entering the work force, although they were part of the labor overhang on the market, and were entering lower productivity jobs.

– Martin L

···

On 5/28/12 11:30 AM, “Richard Marken” rsmarken@GMAIL.COM wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.28…1030)]

bob hintz [2012 may 25]

RM: I don’t know if this counts as data, but there are items presented as factual information. Apparently the US already leads many parts of the industrial world in equity financing and this may be contributing to our problems. It also seems that value based banks and other financial institutions can do well by doing good locally. The Bank of North Dakota seems to be an especially good idea and evidently many other states are considering this a possible model for the future.

I’m sure this is a very good idea but it seems to me that this is just working around the edges of the economic catastrophe that began in the US in 1980. The catastrophe is shown clearly in these charts:

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday

There are several possible explanations of the data shown in these charts. One is the invention of the personal computer (around 1979). Another is the three mile island accident (also around 1979). Another is the break up of the Beatles (1979). Another is that there is no catastrophe at all; what we see in these charts is the way things should be.

My opinion is that these data show a terrible catastrophe – the end of a society where everyone fairly shares in the fruits of what they produce-- and that this was clearly the result of the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980. Reagan was elected on a “government is bad” platform, which legitimatized the idea that taxes are bad (rather than a social responsibility) , government spending is always wasteful (rather than an investment in common infrastructure) and regulations are unnecessary weights on economic vitality (rather than protection from fraud and harm).

I think the data presented above show conclusively that this “free market” approach to the economy has been disastrous. Since Reagan was elected we have reduced taxes, reduced spending on infrastructure (and increased it on defense so there has really been no net change in spending, resulting in the huge increase in debt that also began in 1980) and eliminated regulations and the result has been (as can be seen in the chart) no improvement in economic growth and a redistribution of the fruits of this growth to the top tier of the population.

So I think that the first step towards fixing the economy simply means going back to the economic and social policies that existed pre-Reagan and start again from there. Of course, that’s not going to happen, now that the US government has been put up for sale thanks to the bloodless fascist coup that was the Citizen’s United decision. So I don’t foresee much progress for the US economically (that is, in terms of equitable distribution of wealth) unless, by some miracle, Obama is not only re-elected but also given a strong majority in the house and a filibuster proof majority in the Senate.

But we can always relax knowing that eventually the super-volcano that is the Yellowstone caldera will eventually erupt (within the next 500,000 years, I believe) ending the brief tenure on this planet of our sometimes wondrous but too often awful species of hominid.

Best regards

Rick


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2012.05.27.1505)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 28 1347 MDT) re the data at

Opinion - Image - NYTimes.com

The Federal Reserve started treating returns to labor as inflationary and
would crack down whenever wages started to rise.

No kidding. The Fed did it! I should have known. If there's anything
worse than the government (other than an invasion of aliens from outer
space) it's a government chartered institution like the Fed.

But why didn't Alan "I love Any Rand" Greenspan fix things up when he
was the Fed chair? He had nearly 20 years to do it.

RSM

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Rick,

Would you be kind enough to send me that table that shows the decline of the American middle class starting with the elecion of Reagan? Somehow, I must have deleted it when i thought I was saving it.

I have someone who thinks the Repu8blicans have the solution, that i want to send that table to…

Thanks,

Dick R

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Marken rsmarken@GMAIL.COM
Date: Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:45 am
Subject: Re: new economic visions
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

bob hintz 2012 may 28

I have attached two documents that have just recently gotten my attention. The one on share holder activism agrees on the 1980 as a significant marker. The fact that CEO pay was 42 times typical worker pay in 1980 but has increased to 325 times the typical worker in more recent years.

I am wondering how CEO’s ever convinced Boards of Directors to go along with this in the first place? Isn’t every $ paid to an executive a cost that lowers profit just as much as pay for an average worker? It seems that finally some of the people who are “owners” have noticed. Of course, owners only get to advise the Board. Where do these folks come from? Are they CEOs from other corporations and everyone is merely scratching the backs of people who scratch their backs? Maybe if shareholders organize the direction will change.

bob

ceo pay.pdf (141 KB)

shareholder activism.pdf (235 KB)

···

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Robertson Richard R-Robertson@neiu.edu wrote:

Rick,

Would you be kind enough to send me that table that shows the decline of the American middle class starting with the elecion of Reagan? Somehow, I must have deleted it when i thought I was saving it.

I have someone who thinks the Repu8blicans have the solution, that i want to send that table to…

Thanks,

Dick R

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Marken rsmarken@GMAIL.COM

Date: Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:45 am
Subject: Re: new economic visions
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Rick Marken (2012.06.24.0840)]

Martin Lewitt (2012 May 24 0331 MDT)–

ML: A tax system where the payment of interest on debt is pre-tax, I.e., deductible but the dividend stream to owners is not deductible, and also taxed as income to the owner, I.e., a double tax, makes debt financing cheaper relative to equity financing and biases the structure of an economy towards inflexible debt financing, increasing risky leverage in the economy, and increasing layoffs of employees and deepening recessions because debt obligations must be met or bankruptcy results. From a macro-economic point of view, an economy is less likely to have recessions and better able to weather recessions if it is not deeply in debt, so equity financing is to be preferred to debt financing.

Got data? It would be interesting to see if, indeed, the recession rate goes up during periods when the debt rate is high. And I presume you just mean corporate (or business) debt, not private debt (like mortgage debt).

Without data I’m reluctant to accept your conclusions. This reluctance is based so some extent on my own analysis of the macro economic data which shows a very strong positive relationship between capital gains tax rate and economic growth, suggesting that the alleged “double taxation” of capital gains actually is anti-recessionary

Also, your analysis assumes that what drives economic growth is investment in business. But the macro data shows that increases in investment (public and private) follows growth, which makes sense if you think about it for a second. Businesses invest (expand) when they know there is a market (demand) for what they produce. Of course, the businesses themselves create (and maintain) this demand by paying the workers (and over paying the managers) who produce the goods and services consumed – it’s a closed loop process.And there is really no start to this loop. But apparently the transport lag in the loop leads to the appearance of demand (growth) leading investment.

The data also suggests that tax rates have a mildly beneficial effect on economic growth (when they are progressive), which makes sense from the closed-loop view of the economy because taxation redistributes gross national income so that there is less unused demand (people with so much money they can’t spend it). That’s probably part of the reason why economic growth was enormous during the 40s and 50s, when top marginal tax rates were 90%.

RSM


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com