Newtown Square

CSGnet Archive CSG2012
1

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.0957)

I am not sure that the CSGnet people saw this, so I am resubmitting it with the hope of starting some PCT oriented discussion about the topic.

Adam Lanza was not able to buy guns on his own, or was unwilling to wait. He broke into his mother’s gun collection

and used those. Connecticut is supposed to have some gun control laws. Adam was controlling for

the means by which he was going to take actions. He could have chosen other means but didn’t.

Adam Lanza killed his mother first.

He might be protecting her from the adverse publicity which was going to follow.

He
might be hurting her for not protecting him better from some kind of abuse, or from neglect.

Adam Lanza is reported to have walked past some classrooms and went to the Kindergarten class room.

He wanted to kill the chldren in this room, not the others for some reason. We would need to know his

history in this school. Were there problems in Kindergarten? Since he probably didn’t know the

children in the classroom, was he wanting to hurt the parents of these children? Was he thinking that

this would make the biggest impact on the community?

Adam Lanza killed some of the adults who tried to stop him. They were disturbances for him and he

eliminated them.

Adam Lanza killed himself after the first
responders broke in. If he only wanted to suicide, he could

have done this at home. He avoided capture, jail, and trial by doing this.

He is reported to have been a loner. Even his brother had not had contact with him in a while. I don’t see

how his actions changed this except when the first responders broke in and then confronted him. The

teachers who tried to stop him had to confront him. He could not be ignored any more.

Other thoughts about what Adam Lanza was controlling would be of interest.

David Goldstein

2

[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1100 EST)]

Factual evidence about Adam’s behavior can provide clues as to what perceptions he was and was not controlling that morning. But, honestly, can we ever reach a correct, actual answer?

I don’t know how anyone who accepts PCT would think it is possible much less worthwhile. At best, we PCT’ers too will end up with speculations of what he was controlling moment by moment. Hoping that observers and experts in law enforcement, mental health or psychology can discover causes for Adam’s behavior and take systemic environmental actions that would prevent such atrocities is the illusion game played by S-R and cognitive understandings used by professionals about why people do what they do.

Your speculation that “He could not be ignored any more.” makes a lot of sense to me. But, it is just speculation, isn’t it? What actions should a government take based on a speculation (well reasoned, well intended and possibly completely incorrect) to prevent some reoccurrence?

My advice: require PCT basics be taught in school beginning in kindergarten and at all subsequent levels of public and private education and continue in more depth with each grade or degree level. Would Adam, his mother, father, brother or teachers behaved differently had they understood PCT. Me thinks so. Adam most likely could have found a better, less destructive way of controlling whatever he was that morning.

OK, that is my idea. It is so riduculous. Who could know? Please reply when the laughter ends.

Instead, let’s do something that appears sensible and doable like pass more gun control rules no matter how naive that solution may be in preventing such tragedies. Is it really about controlling guns or about controlling perceptions in the minds of people, even mentally troubled people as Adam apparently was?

Kenny

In a message dated 12/18/2012 10:00:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

···

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.0957)

I am not sure that the CSGnet people saw this, so I am resubmitting it with the hope of starting some PCT oriented discussion about the topic.

Adam Lanza was not able to buy guns on his own, or was unwilling to wait. He broke into his mother’s gun collection

and used those. Connecticut is supposed to have some gun control laws. Adam was controlling for

the means by which he was going to take actions. He could have chosen other means but didn’t.

Adam Lanza killed his mother first.

He might be protecting her from the adverse publicity which was going to follow.

He might be hurting her for not protecting him better from some kind of abuse, or from neglect.

Adam Lanza is reported to have walked past some classrooms and went to the Kindergarten class room.

He wanted to kill the chldren in this room, not the others for some reason. We would need to know his

history in this school. Were there problems in Kindergarten? Since he probably didn’t know the

children in the classroom, was he wanting to hurt the parents of these children? Was he thinking that

this would make the biggest impact on the community?

Adam Lanza killed some of the adults who tried to stop him. They were disturbances for him and he

eliminated them.

Adam Lanza killed himself after the first responders broke in. If he only wanted to suicide, he could

have done this at home. He avoided capture, jail, and trial by doing this.

He is reported to have been a loner. Even his brother had not had contact with him in a while. I don’t see

how his actions changed this except when the first responders broke in and then confronted him. The

teachers who tried to stop him had to confront him. He could not be ignored any more.

Other thoughts about what Adam Lanza was controlling would be of interest.

David Goldstein

3

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.1420 EST)

[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1100 EST)]

Hi Ken,

I like your idea of teaching PCT concepts to parents and children.

Given that the Adam Lynch cannot be interviewed, all that any person has to go on are the known facts.

As a PCTer, I look at what he did as the way he was controlling experiences inside him. He must have been experiencing

big error signals and the only way he could think of reducing them was to do what he did.

By making a guess at what these experiences might
have been, based on the known facts, some novel ideas might emerge other

than the generalizatons of: more gun control, more mental health servcies and more control over violent cultural media.

Playing any tennis?

David

···

From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems KJKitzke@AOL.COM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Newtown Square

[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1100 EST)]

Factual evidence about Adam’s behavior can provide clues as to what perceptions he was and was not controlling that morning. But, honestly, can we ever reach a correct, actual answer?

I don’t know how anyone who accepts PCT would think it is possible much less worthwhile. At best, we PCT’ers too will end up with speculations of what he was controlling moment by moment. Hoping that observers and experts in law enforcement, mental health or psychology can discover causes for Adam’s behavior and take systemic environmental actions that would prevent such atrocities is the illusion game played by S-R and cognitive understandings used by professionals about why people do what they do.

Your speculation that “He could not be ignored any more.” makes a lot of sense to me. But, it is just speculation, isn’t it? What actions should a government take based on a speculation (well reasoned, well intended and possibly completely incorrect) to prevent some reoccurrence?

My advice: require PCT basics be taught in school beginning in kindergarten and at all subsequent levels of public and private education and continue in more depth with each grade or degree level. Would Adam, his mother, father, brother or teachers behaved differently had they understood PCT. Me thinks so. Adam most likely could have found a better, less destructive way of controlling whatever he was that morning.

OK, that is my idea. It is so riduculous. Who could know? Please reply when the laughter ends.

Instead, let’s do something that appears sensible and doable like pass more gun control rules no matter how naive that solution may be in preventing such tragedies. Is it really about controlling guns or about controlling perceptions in the minds of people, even mentally troubled people as Adam apparently was?

Kenny

In a message dated 12/18/2012 10:00:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.0957)

I am not sure that the CSGnet people saw this, so I am resubmitting it with the hope of starting some PCT oriented discussion about the topic.

Adam Lanza was not able to buy guns on his own, or was unwilling to wait. He broke into his mother’s gun collection

and used those. Connecticut is supposed to have some gun control laws. Adam was controlling for

the means by which he was going to take actions. He could have chosen other means but didn’t.

Adam Lanza killed his mother first.

He might be protecting her from the adverse publicity which was going to follow.

He might be hurting her for not protecting him better from some kind of abuse, or from neglect.

Adam Lanza is reported to have walked past some classrooms and went to the Kindergarten class room.

He wanted to kill the chldren in this room, not the others for some reason. We would need to know his

history in this school. Were there problems in Kindergarten? Since he probably didn’t know the

children in the classroom, was he wanting to hurt the parents of these children? Was he thinking that

this would make the biggest impact on the community?

Adam Lanza killed some of the adults who tried to stop him. They were disturbances for him and he

eliminated them.

Adam Lanza killed himself after the first responders broke in. If he only wanted to suicide, he could

have done this at home. He avoided capture, jail, and trial by doing this.

He is reported to have been a loner. Even his brother had not had contact with him in a while. I don’t see

how his actions changed this except when the first responders broke in and then confronted him. The

teachers who tried to stop him had to confront him. He could not be ignored any more.

Other thoughts about what Adam Lanza was controlling would be of interest.

David Goldstein

4

[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1700 EST)]

I quit playing indoor tennis regularly over the winter about a decade ago. My semi-retirement produced an internal conflict between the financial and playing tennis goals. I resolved the conflict by reorganizing and ending my membership in the tennis clubs. But, I actually play more tennis now in a year from April through October. That includes over 40 competitive league matches but mostly doubles and mixed doubles with less singles. In addition, I am part of a nice social group of about 12 older guys (many who played USTA Super Seniors for Kaptain Kenny). I play with them typically twice a week. We play doubles, basically one set with each of the other 3 players. Often that takes over 2 hours at a relaxed pace.

Hey, it is like a compromise: more tennis and less money.

On the assassin topic, I should make clear that I am not against any of the most frequently cited actions that might prevent a reoccurrence:

  • More gun control. Heck, I have a system reference of a pacifist. I don’t own a gun. I would melt down or destroy every lethal or automatic weapon (starting with nuclear or chemical weapons of mass destruction). I would do that for citizens as soon as the governments of the world would and hang any individual who refused or cheated. Don’t tell Rick though.
  • More mental health treatment. The idea that you have to basically commit a crime before being evaluated is insane. I am for prevention; not correction. Why would it be so difficult to have every person evaluated for mental problems every five years or more often if there is abnormal behavior documented by credible observers?
  • More control over violent media. No problem for me for children. I would be willing to extend it to adults and expand it to porn.
    Freedom can have limits and leave plenty of room for individual expressions and interest in all kinds of creative endeavors that would make life something that is permissive as long as it will not harm other people.

IOW, I would look for general consensus on such limits in any state or country. It should not take an individual’s disturbing act by one person to trigger a knee-jerk reaction to control everyone. If consensual agreements on such behavior limits disturb some folks, help them find another way to successfully control their perceptions without harming others. If not perhaps there is an island they can live on that has no limits. We have plenty of mothballed war ships that could serve such a purpose.

OK, I have just blown off some steam. I feel better now. :sunglasses: Sort of like I do when I play tennis whether I win or lose.

KK

In a message dated 12/18/2012 2:30:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

···

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.1420 EST)

[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1100 EST)]

Hi Ken,

I like your idea of teaching PCT concepts to parents and children.

Given that the Adam Lynch cannot be interviewed, all that any person has to go on are the known facts.

As a PCTer, I look at what he did as the way he was controlling experiences inside him. He must have been experiencing

big error signals and the only way he could think of reducing them was to do what he did.

By making a guess at what these experiences might have been, based on the known facts, some novel ideas might emerge other

than the generalizatons of: more gun control, more mental health servcies and more control over violent cultural media.

Playing any tennis?

David

From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems KJKitzke@AOL.COM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Newtown Square

[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1100 EST)]

Factual evidence about Adam’s behavior can provide clues as to what perceptions he was and was not controlling that morning. But, honestly, can we ever reach a correct, actual answer?

I don’t know how anyone who accepts PCT would think it is possible much less worthwhile. At best, we PCT’ers too will end up with speculations of what he was controlling moment by moment. Hoping that observers and experts in law enforcement, mental health or psychology can discover causes for Adam’s behavior and take systemic environmental actions that would prevent such atrocities is the illusion game played by S-R and cognitive understandings used by professionals about why people do what they do.

Your speculation that “He could not be ignored any more.” makes a lot of sense to me. But, it is just speculation, isn’t it? What actions should a government take based on a speculation (well reasoned, well intended and possibly completely incorrect) to prevent some reoccurrence?

My advice: require PCT basics be taught in school beginning in kindergarten and at all subsequent levels of public and private education and continue in more depth with each grade or degree level. Would Adam, his mother, father, brother or teachers behaved differently had they understood PCT. Me thinks so. Adam most likely could have found a better, less destructive way of controlling whatever he was that morning.

OK, that is my idea. It is so riduculous. Who could know? Please reply when the laughter ends.

Instead, let’s do something that appears sensible and doable like pass more gun control rules no matter how naive that solution may be in preventing such tragedies. Is it really about controlling guns or about controlling perceptions in the minds of people, even mentally troubled people as Adam apparently was?

Kenny

In a message dated 12/18/2012 10:00:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.0957)

I am not sure that the CSGnet people saw this, so I am resubmitting it with the hope of starting some PCT oriented discussion about the topic.

Adam Lanza was not able to buy guns on his own, or was unwilling to wait. He broke into his mother's gun collection

and used those. Connecticut is supposed to have some gun control laws. Adam was controlling for

the means by which he was going to take actions. He could have chosen other means but didn't.

Adam Lanza killed his mother first.

He might be protecting her from the adverse publicity which was going to follow.

He might be hurting her for not protecting him better from some kind of abuse, or from neglect.

Adam Lanza is reported to have walked past some classrooms and went to the Kindergarten class room.

He wanted to kill the chldren in this room, not the others for some reason. We would need to know his

history in this school. Were there problems in Kindergarten? Since he probably didn't know the

children in the classroom, was he wanting to hurt the parents of these children? Was he thinking that

this would make the biggest impact on the community?

Adam Lanza killed some of the adults who tried to stop him. They were disturbances for him and he

eliminated them.

Adam Lanza killed himself after the first responders broke in. If he only wanted to suicide, he could

have done this at home. He avoided capture, jail, and trial by doing this.

He is reported to have been a loner. Even his brother had not had contact with him in a while. I don't see

how his actions changed this except when the first responders broke in and then confronted him. The

teachers who tried to stop him had to confront him. He could not be ignored any more.

Other thoughts about what Adam Lanza was controlling would be of interest.

David Goldstein

5

[From Rick Marken (2012.12.18.1545)]

Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1700 EST)--

KK: On the assassin topic, I should make clear that I am not against any of the
most frequently cited actions that might prevent a reoccurrence:

More gun control. Heck, I have a system reference of a pacifist. I don't
own a gun. I would melt down or destroy every lethal or automatic weapon
(starting with nuclear or chemical weapons of mass destruction). I would do
that for citizens as soon as the governments of the world would and hang any
individual who refused or cheated. Don't tell Rick though.
More mental health treatment. The idea that you have to basically commit a
crime before being evaluated is insane. I am for prevention; not
correction. Why would it be so difficult to have every person evaluated for
mental problems every five years or more often if there is abnormal behavior
documented by credible observers?
More control over violent media. No problem for me for children. I would
be willing to extend it to adults and expand it to porn.

RM: Gee, Kenny. Those are GREAT ideas!! What were we disagreeing
about? You are my new best friend.

KK: Freedom can have limits and leave plenty of room for individual expressions
and interest in all kinds of creative endeavors that would make life
something that is permissive as long as it will not harm other people.

IOW, I would look for general consensus on such limits in any state or
country.

RM: Me too!! What do think, I want to be a dictator? (Don't answer
that! :wink: I am very into democracy.

Best

Rick

It should not take an individual's disturbing act by one person to

···

trigger a knee-jerk reaction to control everyone. If consensual agreements
on such behavior limits disturb some folks, help them find another way to
successfully control their perceptions without harming others. If not
perhaps there is an island they can live on that has no limits. We have
plenty of mothballed war ships that could serve such a purpose.

OK, I have just blown off some steam. I feel better now. :sunglasses: Sort of like
I do when I play tennis whether I win or lose.

KK

In a message dated 12/18/2012 2:30:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.1420 EST)
[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1100 EST)]

Hi Ken,

I like your idea of teaching PCT concepts to parents and children.

Given that the Adam Lynch cannot be interviewed, all that any person has to
go on are the known facts.

As a PCTer, I look at what he did as the way he was controlling experiences
inside him. He must have been experiencing
big error signals and the only way he could think of reducing them was to do
what he did.

By making a guess at what these experiences might have been, based on the
known facts, some novel ideas might emerge other
than the generalizatons of: more gun control, more mental health servcies
and more control over violent cultural media.

Playing any tennis?

David

From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems <KJKitzke@AOL.COM>
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Newtown Square

[From Kenny Kitzke (2012.12.18.1100 EST)]

Factual evidence about Adam's behavior can provide clues as to what
perceptions he was and was not controlling that morning. But, honestly, can
we ever reach a correct, actual answer?

I don't know how anyone who accepts PCT would think it is possible much less
worthwhile. At best, we PCT'ers too will end up with speculations of what
he was controlling moment by moment. Hoping that observers and experts in
law enforcement, mental health or psychology can discover causes for Adam's
behavior and take systemic environmental actions that would prevent such
atrocities is the illusion game played by S-R and cognitive understandings
used by professionals about why people do what they do.

Your speculation that "He could not be ignored any more." makes a lot of
sense to me. But, it is just speculation, isn't it? What actions should a
government take based on a speculation (well reasoned, well intended and
possibly completely incorrect) to prevent some reoccurrence?

My advice: require PCT basics be taught in school beginning in kindergarten
and at all subsequent levels of public and private education and continue in
more depth with each grade or degree level. Would Adam, his mother, father,
brother or teachers behaved differently had they understood PCT. Me thinks
so. Adam most likely could have found a better, less destructive way of
controlling whatever he was that morning.

OK, that is my idea. It is so riduculous. Who could know? Please reply
when the laughter ends.

Instead, let's do something that appears sensible and doable like pass more
gun control rules no matter how naive that solution may be in preventing
such tragedies. Is it really about controlling guns or about controlling
perceptions in the minds of people, even mentally troubled people as Adam
apparently was?

Kenny

In a message dated 12/18/2012 10:00:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

David Goldstein (2012.12.18.0957)

I am not sure that the CSGnet people saw this, so I am resubmitting it with
the hope of starting some PCT oriented discussion about the topic.

Adam Lanza was not able to buy guns on his own, or was unwilling to wait. He
broke into his mother's gun collection
and used those. Connecticut is supposed to have some gun control laws. Adam
was controlling for
the means by which he was going to take actions. He could have chosen other
means but didn't.
Adam Lanza killed his mother first.
He might be protecting her from the adverse publicity which was going to
follow.
He might be hurting her for not protecting him better from some kind of
abuse, or from neglect.
Adam Lanza is reported to have walked past some classrooms and went to the
Kindergarten class room.
He wanted to kill the chldren in this room, not the others for some reason.
We would need to know his
history in this school. Were there problems in Kindergarten? Since he
probably didn't know the
children in the classroom, was he wanting to hurt the parents of these
children? Was he thinking that
this would make the biggest impact on the community?
Adam Lanza killed some of the adults who tried to stop him. They were
disturbances for him and he
eliminated them.
Adam Lanza killed himself after the first responders broke in. If he only
wanted to suicide, he could
have done this at home. He avoided capture, jail, and trial by doing this.
He is reported to have been a loner. Even his brother had not had contact
with him in a while. I don't see
how his actions changed this except when the first responders broke in and
then confronted him. The
teachers who tried to stop him had to confront him. He could not be ignored
any more.
Other thoughts about what Adam Lanza was controlling would be of interest.
David Goldstein

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com