non-scientific... belie[fs] in creation

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2001.0407.2210 CDT)]

Kenny, Kenny!

Let's not confuse these two methods (science and belief) of explaining
one's universe! They are of two different methods, and not comparable, one
to the other, in the ability to reach the same kinds of "truth." The
"truth" of Biblical belief is the Bible. The truth of the scientific
method is the way in which its process can reveal adequate explanations of
physical phenomena, but the scientific evidence is in itself never "truth."
So, the Bible is not *scientific evidence* for a believer, rather for him,
it is the *theological truth*. Further, no kind of evidence, however
strong, consistent, and pervasive as the universe itself apparently can
sway a believer from his or her belief. A scientist gains nothing by
trying to mount evidence of any sort against the theological truth of the
Bible. Period. We are just pulling our own chain to try to do so.

Therefore: 1) You cannot scientifically refute someone's belief in a
Biblical creation account, because belief is not imbued with what
scientists call scientific evidence. 2) Likewise, you cannot critique
scientific evidence (physical as well as Biblical) with religious belief
(Biblical or other), because all evidence must be refutable to be dealt
with in a scientific method, and belief does not permit refutation of the
content of belief.

You are simply mixing apples with oranges, which does no good here. Since
this discussion group deals mainly with the scientific method, your comment
below seems to be not much more than a comment on the PCT topic. Also, no
person who does science "believes" in a Darwinian explanation, rather they
employ it or other explanations as a way of understanding the phenomena of
the world. Likewise, evolution (punctuated, gradual, or any other
variation of the standard explanation) is not "fact" in the ordinary sense,
but a scientific theory based on scientific evidence, just as you say. Ah,
but Creationism, since it bases its critique in "unquestioning belief," is
just not a theory!

Personally, I wonder why you contribute these kinds of statements when you
should (by now) realize that such things are sort of an irrelevant comment
given the main topic of this discussion group, really. You may use the PCT
explanation of living control systems in your work and research, but a
creationist-evolutionary debate is probably left-field to our main topic.

Cheers,

Bryan

(And yes, I regard Biblical evidence as scientific evidence that is
provisional, refutable, and therefore worthy of being questioned as any
other historical evidence. In terms of its ability to convey the Christian
Theology, it is *awesome*, even "striking" in its effect on a reader! On
that theology, and on people's latter day interpretations of it, however, I
reserve my comments further. So let's also leave theology, right or wrong,
for another site, eh?)

ยทยทยท

[From Kenny Kitzke (01.04.07)]

For such matters I trust the Biblical account believing it to be the word of
the Creator to mankind. The Creator was the only one there to know for sure.
It is His account, by faith, that I rely upon. As a holder of a bachelor of
science degree, I know of no evidence that scientifically refutes the
Biblical creation account.

[From Bill Powers (2001.04.08.0407 MDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (01.04.07)--

For such matters I trust the Biblical account believing it to be the word of
the Creator to mankind.

The fundamental question, Kenny, is why you believe that. Of course if it
is true, then everything in the Bible has to be true and so on from there.
But what if it's not true? Then the Bible has to be interpreted in a
completely different way. So it all hinges on your personal decision to
take the Biblical account as the word of God.

That decision, if it has anything to do with science, depends crucially on
what you demand as evidence. The kind of evidence I have seen offered is
simply not the kind any scientist would take seriously. It's not
reproducible at will, it's not interpreted by any agreed public methods of
reasoning, it's based on unverifiable and hearsay accounts, and so on. In
fact the beliefs involved are exactly the kind against which scientists
always have to struggle within themselves: beliefs that we desire strongly
to be true, or are afraid might be true, or in some other way are
influenced by human hopes, needs, and desires. Human beings are extremely
prone to forcing their ideas of truth to be what they want them to be,
regardless of evidence to the contrary which they would take seriously if
they began from a neutral position. When the truth becomes whatever you
want it to be, you no longer have any useful concept of truth.

To someone like me who calls himself a scientist (aside from the question
of whether I always succeed in being one), faith is the illusion of
knowing, arrived at through imagination to satisfy desires instead of
through observation and systematic analysis to satisfy a greater love of
truth itself. You might say that I want to be a scientist because I hate
being fooled, even by myself. To believe in something that's later proven
false is, to me, the ultimate defeat, and I speak from the experience of
having defeated myself a number of times. So I distrust belief, and seek
knowledge, which is verifiable belief. When you demand that belief or faith
be verifiable, then faith and belief become subordinate to observation and
testing; they are practical conveniences (we can't always be doubting
everything), but are by no means the highest or most admirable state of
knowing.

And they are far from the most trustworthy.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Kenny Kitzke (01.04.08)]

<Bryan Thalhammer (2001.0407.2210 CDT)>

<Let's not confuse these two methods (science and belief) of explaining
one's universe!>

Bryan, Bryan!

Nice to hear from you. You grace this forum far too seldomly. I do not
think I have them confused. I see science as two high-level perceptions
about how best to determine various kinds of knowledge or truth. In the case
of the origin of human beings, the two perceptual methods come to
contradictory conclusions. As autonomous living control systems we must
resolve these conflicting conclusions in our own mind by our behavior. It is
very PCTish. I am not trying to combine them but to discern them when they
disagree in theory.

<Personally, I wonder why you contribute these kinds of statements when you
should (by now) realize that such things are sort of an irrelevant comment
given the main topic of this discussion group, really. You may use the PCT
explanation of living control systems in your work and research, but a
creationist-evolutionary debate is probably left-field to our main topic.>

I wonder why you did not write to Ferit who started the thread and seems to
think that the creationist-evolutionist debate is a subject for the CSGNet.
He, by your definition is in left-field. I merely responded to his post.

<So let's also leave theology, right or wrong, for another site, eh?)

Sure is fine with me. PCT just can't handle what is right or wrong in a
moral sense anyway. That is why I discuss theology on many other sites. I
never bring theology up first here. But, I do respond when someone else
does, especially if it is anti-Biblical. I just can't help controlling for
that.

BTW, make sure you inform Bill Powers that he should not be commenting on
theology either on this site. 8-))

Be wise, Bryan, Bryan! You are most welcome to pursue theological concepts
with me privately.

Respectfully,

Kenny, Kenny!

[From Kenny Kitzke (01.04.08)]

<Bill Powers (2001.04.08.0407 MDT)>

For such matters I trust the Biblical account believing it to be the word of
the Creator to mankind.

<The fundamental question, Kenny, is why you believe that.>

A more fundamental question is, Bill, why do you care why I believe that. If
it is all just faith, what is that to you, a scientist? I have never asked
you what you believe about man's origin or why you believe it? And, I don't
particularly care why you believe what you do about creation/evolution of
human beings.

I have read some ideas you have expressed about origins and have written
papers about them and how I see these things, some compatibly, some very
differently, especially how they relate to understanding human nature. I
still count you as a respected friend despite our differences in reference
perceptions about such subjects.

I do really care about your theories of behavior of living things, especially
HPCT for the behavior of human beings. And, I think you are marvelous! And,
these topics seem to offend some on CSGNet. So, private is the word. Have
_you_ responded to Ferit, a possible new convert to PCT? I did.

Your admirer (at least until someone scientifically refutes your PCT). But,
hopefully, your forever Christian friend,

Kenny