NYTimes.com: How Do You Say 'Economic Security'?

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[From Rick Marken (2011.09.24.1410)] I think this is a very good article that is relevant to this group because the way I say “economic security” is “being in control”. Best Rick
OPINION

September 24, 2011

Op-Ed Contributors:
How Do You Say ‘Economic Security’?

By THEODORE R. MARMOR and JERRY L. MASHAW

Where politicians once drew on the language of people, family and shared social concern, they now deploy the cold technical idiom of budgetary accounting.




Copyright 2011
The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 24 23:28 MDT]

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[From Rick Marken (2011.09.24.1410)] I think
this is a very good article that is relevant to
this group because the way I say “economic
security” is “being in control”. Best Rick

What about "economic security" as used in the article is about

“being in control”? There appears to be far more control involved
in Congress trying to get in control of the budget.

"In 1934, the focus was on people, family security and the risks to

family economic well-being that we all share. Today, the people have
disappeared."

How have the people disappeared, when the "cuts" in entitlement

spending, are only cuts in its growth, and when there are
practically no poor in the United States today, by the standards of
living at the time of the 1934. The authors of the article have no
sense of historical perspective, we don’t “all share” “the risks to
family economic well being” that they had in 1934.

regards,

     Martin
···

marken@mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.25.0756 MDT)]


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[From Rick Marken (2011.09.24.1410)] I think this is a very good article
that is relevant to this group because the way I say “economic
security” is “being in control”. Best Rick

Yes, a very inspiring article, especially since I woke up thinking about
the same subject – where have the people gone in all these national
discussions of economics?
Consequently, I couldn’t agree more when you say “economic
security” is “being in control.” But I’d like to make that
more specific – it’s being in control of your own life, not somebody
else’s. Before my libertarian friends perk up and tell me I’ve finally
seen the light, I’m not talking about government versus people, but
people versus people.
It has seemed more and more to me that economics is not about “the
economy.” It’s about who gets to control whom. That question, it
seems to me, is behind every disagreement about how an economy ought to
be organized, or even how a society ought to be organized. Who gets to
say how many hours a day you can, or must, work, and how much you get
paid for it? Who gets to judge the quality of your work and either reward
or punish you for it as they judge to be appropriate? Who decides what
laws you have broken and what is to happen to you as a consequence? Who
decides whether you are a good citizen and may vote, or a bad one? Who
decides what clothes, if any, you will wear, or what kind of car you can
buy, or what substances you put into your body, or whether you can die
when life is too much to cope with?
In economics, the question is “who gets control of the way things
are done?” This boils down largely to the question of who gets the
most money.
Long ago, perhaps, money was simply a convenient way of providing credit
for goods supplied or work done. Without it, the same people could
provide the same goods or do the same work for each other, but the
impracticalities of a pure barter society or one based simply on good
will are obvious. You can promise to make me a pair of shoes if I agree
to read aloud to you every evening for a week, but how do I make sure I
will actually get the shoes? It would be fine if you would make me the
shoes because I need them, and if I would read to you because you enjoy
it so much, but this way of doing things requires that you know exactly
what I want and when I want it and I know the same about you, and that
each of us can do it without suffering any negative consequences as a
result which force us to break the agreement, or provide enough of an
excuse as soon as we have what we want. It’s much more practical for each
person to satisfy his or her (or both of their) own desires and
rely as little as possible on other people doing that right. There are,
of course, joys of community that require more than one person to
satisfy, but while that’s more difficult, we can work that out together,
too, without having to set up an elaborate system of rules that apply
rigidly to everyone.
Money is just a way to keep track of who has promised what. If you pay me
for reading to you, I don’t have to hang around barefoot until you
finally make me those shoes. Etc. Unfortunately, money is also one of
those programs supporting principles supporting system concepts that acts
just like the conveniences of home computing. It allows for fast and easy
interchanges of vital ideas, goods, and services between people, and by
providing that very facility, it attracts the scavengers, like bears to
honey and vultures to carrion. It attracts the hackers whose only thought
is how to better their own position regardless of what doing that means
for others. The bear doesn’t care why the bees made the honey; the
vulture doesn’t care if the lost hiker is really quite dead. If you’re
hungry, why not eat? The lower levels are working fine but there’s
something missing upstairs.
Obviously, if a person can obtain a great deal of money for doing no more
work than anyone else does, or preferably a great deal less work, that
hacker can drain buying power out of the system for personal use without
providing an equal benefit for those from whom the buying power was
drained. The balance of trade is upset. Furthermore, the possessor of
large stores of buying power can enlist the aid of those with less of it
by offering them some of their money back if they will make and enforce
rules that make the hacker’s position more secure. Simply by lending
money to those in need, at interest, the hacker can use the stored buying
power to make the store even greater. Of course it’s the hacker who
creates a good deal of the need for money, so this is a self-sustaining
strategy.
Inevitably, then, control shifts away from the people in general and into
the hands of the hackers. Once that shift begins, it is self-propagating.
Money begets money and power begets power. This is a positive feedback
situation which is stable only at the extremes. Every now and then the
changes reverse, and go to the opposite extreme, but if that is a low
point where buying power is threatened, the hackers go into emergency
mode and start the trend back to their side before the hackees can figure
out what’s happening. Note that “buying power” means both money
and using money to obtain power over others.
The solution to this systemic problem is twofold (at least).
First, we have to stop admiring hackers, however clever and talented they
seem. They seem so only to the extent that they appeal to the hacker in
all of us. We have to stop wanting to become rich, wealthy, happy
hackers, too, and thus applauding those who have done so and like to brag
about it. We can still approve of and seek happiness and wealth, but for
all of us, not just some of us. That’s the only stable state, the only
possible escape from cycles of boom and bust, tyranny and revolution,
feast and famine, war and peace.
Cycles like these are signs of a bug in the system, a design problem.
Simply trying to put the brakes on will not solve the problem because we
can’t keep them on forever and they will wear out if we try. Just pushing
back against the hackers will weaken the pushers and strengthen the
resisters and make the conflict worse, or bring down the system entirely
which is to nobody’s advantage (but that of the vultures).
Second, we have to understand how the system as a whole works. The role
of money in an economy can be understood by constructing a working model
without hackers in it, to see what the requirements are for stable
operation. Once those conditions are known, we can investigate how
hacking or gaming the system can be made somewhat unprofitable. If you
stand to lose by trying to gain abnormal buying power, why would you do
it?
Third, we have to shift our admiration to people who actually produce
things and ideas of use to everyone. It’s simply not true that the most
creative, organized, intelligent, and ambitious people are hackers. If
anything, the reverse is more likely to be the case, and the hackers
generally know this: they hire the creative etc. people. Creative people
will create no matter what their financial status; intelligent people are
not made stupid by lack of direction from outside. You can’t make anyone
have newer better ideas by paying more for them. The most you can do by
hiring smart and capable people is prevent anyone else from benefiting
from their work through confidentiality agreements and other
threats.
Fourth and last for now, we have to accomplish all the required changes
while maintaining what Hugh Gibbons calls “respect for the will of
others.” Not necessarily compliance, but respect in the sense of
admitting that everyone has to direct his or her own life by doing what
seems to be necessary.
A hacker is not an evil or stupid person, however often both adjectives
may seem to apply. The hacker is behaving in a way that seems to
accomplish certain goals. We have to continue asking “why” a
little longer than usual.
Why does a person want a large amount of money? One reason may be simply
to live better, to fulfill wants long unsatisfied. Perhaps the person
wants power over other people. Why does the person want that power? Maybe
because without it, the person can’t get certain other things – freedom
from control by others, perhaps, or influence over what happens to
himself, or admiration, or even love and respect. Any why does a person
want those things? Perhaps – always perhaps, because people differ –
perhaps because without things like love, respect, influence, and
freedom, one does not feel like a worthy person, a person deserving of
the good things in life, who does not feel secure in the present,
in future life, or, depending on beliefs, in the next life.
Who knows? We simply have to ask and find out what these people want, and
try to arrange for them to get it without doing the things tht tend to
destroy the economy for those at the bottom. Denying them what they want
is not the answer; the answer lies in finding out what they want and
making sure, as far as we’re willing, that they can get it without
thinking they have to control the rest of us.
I guess there is a fifth point. If a person says “I love you,”
that is nice to hear and gives a good feeling. But if you say “I’ll
give you ten dollars if you say ‘I love you’,” the same phrase loses
all its ability to satisfy. It’s just a way of getting ten dollars and
you have little reason to think that it’s meant. So just telling a
recovering hacker that you admire his restraint or courage or honesty or
ability to play a round of golf under 80 will not make the hacker feel
satisfied if he or she knows you have an ulterior motive, that you’re
just trying to help the hacker sober up and would say anything that might
lead to that end. If you say you admire, approve, appreciate, or
otherwise give a high grade to something about the hacker, you have to
actually have those feelings – you must really admire something other
than wealth, fame, and power. Insincerity is too easy to detect. You must
actually hope that the hacker gets what he wants – what he really
wants, not just the things that are only a destructive means to a
seemingly worthy end.

Discovering what a person really wants, and doing what you can to see it
is obtained, is the only means I can think of that might work. To do that
you have to change yourself, since you can’t change the other person. I
think one word for that attitude is love. Is that what that guy in
Galilee was talking about, or the guy under the Bo tree? Is respect for
the will of another what we really mean by that four-letter
word?

Best,

Bill

I think this is an extremely important post and I will ponder it well and fully before responding.

Fred Nickols

image00115.gif

yyanimation12.gif

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 10:45 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: How Do You Say ‘Economic Security’?

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.25.0756 MDT)]

Description: The New York Times Description: E-mail This

This page was sent to you by: marken@mindreadings.com

Message from sender:
[From Rick Marken (2011.09.24.1410)] I think this is a very good article that is relevant to this group because the way I say “economic security” is “being in control”. Best Rick

Yes, a very inspiring article, especially since I woke up thinking about the same subject – where have the people gone in all these national discussions of economics?
Consequently, I couldn’t agree more when you say “economic security” is “being in control.” But I’d like to make that more specific – it’s being in control of your own life, not somebody else’s. Before my libertarian friends perk up and tell me I’ve finally seen the light, I’m not talking about government versus people, but people versus people.
It has seemed more and more to me that economics is not about “the economy.” It’s about who gets to control whom. That question, it seems to me, is behind every disagreement about how an economy ought to be organized, or even how a society ought to be organized. Who gets to say how many hours a day you can, or must, work, and how much you get paid for it? Who gets to judge the quality of your work and either reward or punish you for it as they judge to be appropriate? Who decides what laws you have broken and what is to happen to you as a consequence? Who decides whether you are a good citizen and may vote, or a bad one? Who decides what clothes, if any, you will wear, or what kind of car you can buy, or what substances you put into your body, or whether you can die when life is too much to cope with?
In economics, the question is “who gets control of the way things are done?” This boils down largely to the question of who gets the most money.
Long ago, perhaps, money was simply a convenient way of providing credit for goods supplied or work done. Without it, the same people could provide the same goods or do the same work for each other, but the impracticalities of a pure barter society or one based simply on good will are obvious. You can promise to make me a pair of shoes if I agree to read aloud to you every evening for a week, but how do I make sure I will actually get the shoes? It would be fine if you would make me the shoes because I need them, and if I would read to you because you enjoy it so much, but this way of doing things requires that you know exactly what I want and when I want it and I know the same about you, and that each of us can do it without suffering any negative consequences as a result which force us to break the agreement, or provide enough of an excuse as soon as we have what we want. It’s much more practical for each person to satisfy his or her (or both of their) own desires and rely as little as possible on other people doing that right. There are, of course, joys of community that require more than one person to satisfy, but while that’s more difficult, we can work that out together, too, without having to set up an elaborate system of rules that apply rigidly to everyone.
Money is just a way to keep track of who has promised what. If you pay me for reading to you, I don’t have to hang around barefoot until you finally make me those shoes. Etc. Unfortunately, money is also one of those programs supporting principles supporting system concepts that acts just like the conveniences of home computing. It allows for fast and easy interchanges of vital ideas, goods, and services between people, and by providing that very facility, it attracts the scavengers, like bears to honey and vultures to carrion. It attracts the hackers whose only thought is how to better their own position regardless of what doing that means for others. The bear doesn’t care why the bees made the honey; the vulture doesn’t care if the lost hiker is really quite dead. If you’re hungry, why not eat? The lower levels are working fine but there’s something missing upstairs.
Obviously, if a person can obtain a great deal of money for doing no more work than anyone else does, or preferably a great deal less work, that hacker can drain buying power out of the system for personal use without providing an equal benefit for those from whom the buying power was drained. The balance of trade is upset. Furthermore, the possessor of large stores of buying power can enlist the aid of those with less of it by offering them some of their money back if they will make and enforce rules that make the hacker’s position more secure. Simply by lending money to those in need, at interest, the hacker can use the stored buying power to make the store even greater. Of course it’s the hacker who creates a good deal of the need for money, so this is a self-sustaining strategy.
Inevitably, then, control shifts away from the people in general and into the hands of the hackers. Once that shift begins, it is self-propagating. Money begets money and power begets power. This is a positive feedback situation which is stable only at the extremes. Every now and then the changes reverse, and go to the opposite extreme, but if that is a low point where buying power is threatened, the hackers go into emergency mode and start the trend back to their side before the hackees can figure out what’s happening. Note that “buying power” means both money and using money to obtain power over others.
The solution to this systemic problem is twofold (at least).
First, we have to stop admiring hackers, however clever and talented they seem. They seem so only to the extent that they appeal to the hacker in all of us. We have to stop wanting to become rich, wealthy, happy hackers, too, and thus applauding those who have done so and like to brag about it. We can still approve of and seek happiness and wealth, but for all of us, not just some of us. That’s the only stable state, the only possible escape from cycles of boom and bust, tyranny and revolution, feast and famine, war and peace.
Cycles like these are signs of a bug in the system, a design problem. Simply trying to put the brakes on will not solve the problem because we can’t keep them on forever and they will wear out if we try. Just pushing back against the hackers will weaken the pushers and strengthen the resisters and make the conflict worse, or bring down the system entirely which is to nobody’s advantage (but that of the vultures).
Second, we have to understand how the system as a whole works. The role of money in an economy can be understood by constructing a working model without hackers in it, to see what the requirements are for stable operation. Once those conditions are known, we can investigate how hacking or gaming the system can be made somewhat unprofitable. If you stand to lose by trying to gain abnormal buying power, why would you do it?
Third, we have to shift our admiration to people who actually produce things and ideas of use to everyone. It’s simply not true that the most creative, organized, intelligent, and ambitious people are hackers. If anything, the reverse is more likely to be the case, and the hackers generally know this: they hire the creative etc. people. Creative people will create no matter what their financial status; intelligent people are not made stupid by lack of direction from outside. You can’t make anyone have newer better ideas by paying more for them. The most you can do by hiring smart and capable people is prevent anyone else from benefiting from their work through confidentiality agreements and other threats.
Fourth and last for now, we have to accomplish all the required changes while maintaining what Hugh Gibbons calls “respect for the will of others.” Not necessarily compliance, but respect in the sense of admitting that everyone has to direct his or her own life by doing what seems to be necessary.
A hacker is not an evil or stupid person, however often both adjectives may seem to apply. The hacker is behaving in a way that seems to accomplish certain goals. We have to continue asking “why” a little longer than usual.
Why does a person want a large amount of money? One reason may be simply to live better, to fulfill wants long unsatisfied. Perhaps the person wants power over other people. Why does the person want that power? Maybe because without it, the person can’t get certain other things – freedom from control by others, perhaps, or influence over what happens to himself, or admiration, or even love and respect. Any why does a person want those things? Perhaps – always perhaps, because people differ – perhaps because without things like love, respect, influence, and freedom, one does not feel like a worthy person, a person deserving of the good things in life, who does not feel secure in the present, in future life, or, depending on beliefs, in the next life.
Who knows? We simply have to ask and find out what these people want, and try to arrange for them to get it without doing the things tht tend to destroy the economy for those at the bottom. Denying them what they want is not the answer; the answer lies in finding out what they want and making sure, as far as we’re willing, that they can get it without thinking they have to control the rest of us.
I guess there is a fifth point. If a person says “I love you,” that is nice to hear and gives a good feeling. But if you say “I’ll give you ten dollars if you say ‘I love you’,” the same phrase loses all its ability to satisfy. It’s just a way of getting ten dollars and you have little reason to think that it’s meant. So just telling a recovering hacker that you admire his restraint or courage or honesty or ability to play a round of golf under 80 will not make the hacker feel satisfied if he or she knows you have an ulterior motive, that you’re just trying to help the hacker sober up and would say anything that might lead to that end. If you say you admire, approve, appreciate, or otherwise give a high grade to something about the hacker, you have to actually have those feelings – you must really admire something other than wealth, fame, and power. Insincerity is too easy to detect. You must actually hope that the hacker gets what he wants – what he really wants, not just the things that are only a destructive means to a seemingly worthy end.

Discovering what a person really wants, and doing what you can to see it is obtained, is the only means I can think of that might work. To do that you have to change yourself, since you can’t change the other person. I think one word for that attitude is love. Is that what that guy in Galilee was talking about, or the guy under the Bo tree? Is respect for the will of another what we really mean by that four-letter word?

Best,

Bill

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.26.1230)]

Bill Powers (2011.09.25.0756 MDT)–

Yes, a very inspiring article, especially since I woke up thinking about
the same subject – where have the people gone in all these national
discussions of economics?

Consequently, I couldn’t agree more when you say “economic
security” is “being in control.” …

The solution to this systemic problem is twofold (at least).

First, we have to stop admiring hackers, however clever and talented they
seem…

Second, we have to understand how the system as a whole works…

Third, we have to shift our admiration to people who actually produce
things and ideas of use to everyone. …

Fourth and last for now, we have to accomplish all the required changes
while maintaining what Hugh Gibbons calls “respect for the will of
others.” …

I think these things don’t just happen; I think we need leaders who articulate these values so that they become part of the zeitgeist (yes, I believe in zeitgeists;-) I may be wrong but my impression is that before 1980 we had leaders (like FDR, Eisenhower, JFK) who promulgated a zeitgeist where “hackers” (the people rich from manipulating finances) were not admired, we admired people who produced things and ideas and there was far more mutual respect for people with different opinions. I think we also understood the economic system better as well; people knew you had to pay people a decent wage so they could buy the stuff they were producing. There was a greater focus on people than on profits. Greed was still one of the 7 deadly sins. And the economy was remarkably stable until 1980. That’s when the zeitgeist changed precipitously. Suddenly it was the economic hackers who were admired, the people with ideas (that didn’t “pay off”) who were scorned (the saps) and mutual respect disappeared (had to find anyone who loved a liberal anymore;-). And our understanding of the economy turned into a trickle down fantasy where making the rich richer would somehow help everyone else.

I think the central problem now is that the “government is bad” meme, started by Reagan, has infected the US population like a plague. There will always be greedy “hackers” and we used to know that the only thing between them and the rest of us is government regulation. But people now buy into the idea that government regulation (indeed, anything the government does) is bad because it prevents the rich from getting richer so that they can trickle their wealth down to the rest of us. I think the problem we have in this country is that leaders since Reagan have successfully promulgated a system concept that includes the idea that government is bad. Probably a majority of the population has bought into this concept. I think the only hope is for us to get a super charismatic leader who can change the prevailing system concept (zeitgeist) to one that is more like the one you describe with you four points above (the one I believe was far more prevalent prior to 1980). I thought Obama would be that person but he’s not. But he’s working in the context of very racist, reactionary resistance so maybe he’s doing the best possible while avoiding brown shirt violence.

Discovering what a person really wants, and doing what you can to see it
is obtained, is the only means I can think of that might work. To do that
you have to change yourself, since you can’t change the other person. I
think one word for that attitude is love. Is that what that guy in
Galilee was talking about, or the guy under the Bo tree? Is respect for
the will of another what we really mean by that four-letter
word?

Yes, you are supposed to love your enemies. But that’s tough to do when they are destroying the lives of other people with their greed and lack of respect. I like Jesus’ message of love but I also think it’s important to remember that, even when he comes back, “the government shall be upon his shoulders”; love, but verify;-)

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Taylor 2011.09.26.16.52]
[From Rick Marken (2011.09.26.1230)]

I like Jesus' message of love but I also think it's important to remember that, even when he comes back, "the government shall be upon his shoulders"; love, but verify;-)

Remember also His economic message: Cast your bread upon the waters and it shall return to you manyfold.

I always thought that message went to the core of effective economics that would produce general wealth.

Martin

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 26 2038 MDT]

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.26.1230)]

Bill Powers (2011.09.25.0756 MDT)–

        Yes, a very inspiring article, especially since I woke up

thinking about
the same subject – where have the people gone in all these
national
discussions of economics?

        Consequently, I couldn't agree more when you say "economic

security" is “being in control.” …

This consequence doesn't follow.
        The solution to this systemic problem is twofold (at least).




        First, we have to stop admiring hackers, however clever and

talented they
seem…

        Second, we have to understand how the system as a whole

works…

        Third, we have to shift our admiration to people who

actually produce
things and ideas of use to everyone. …

Throw away specialization which produces things of use to particular

segments?

        Fourth and last for now, we have to accomplish all the

required changes
while maintaining what Hugh Gibbons calls “respect for the
will of
others.” …

Agreed, as long as that "will" is worthy of respect and itself

respectful of the will of others.

      I think these things don't just happen; I think we need

leaders who articulate these values so that they become part
of the zeitgeist (yes, I believe in zeitgeists;-) I may be
wrong but my impression is that before 1980 we had leaders
(like FDR, Eisenhower, JFK) who promulgated a zeitgeist where
“hackers” (the people rich from manipulating finances) were
not admired, we admired people who produced things and ideas
and there was far more mutual respect for people with
different opinions.

You obviously aren't familiar with FDR, he was quite snarky about

the opinions of others, and would have been quite at home on many of
todays most mocking and vulgar progressive blogs. The hackers he
admired were those who hacked the constitution and our liberties.
You might want to read “the forgotten man”. He also refused to
get on board with anti-lynching legislation or coming to the aid of
European Jewry.

      I think we also understood the economic system better as

well; people knew you had to pay people a decent wage so they
could buy the stuff they were producing. There was a greater
focus on people than on profits. Greed was still one of the 7
deadly sins.

And it still is today.  The manufacturers are far more admired than

the bankers and financiers.

      And the economy was remarkably stable until 1980. That's

when the zeitgeist changed precipitously. Suddenly it was the
economic hackers who were admired, the people with ideas (that
didn’t “pay off”) who were scorned (the saps) and mutual
respect disappeared (had to find anyone who loved a liberal
anymore;-).

Perhaps you weren't alive for stagflation.
      And our understanding of the economy turned into a trickle

down fantasy where making the rich richer would somehow help
everyone else.

Reagan opposed Fed Chairman Volchers attempt to "break the inflation

psychology" by putting the clamps on the economy. Reagan’s supply
side approach was to “produce our way out” of the inflation He
understood inflation as too much money chasing too few goods, and
his solution was to produce more goods. If the economic
understanding was better then, perhaps it is because it based upon
first principles rather than the hubris of controlling chaos.

      I think the central problem now is that the "government is

bad" meme, started by Reagan, has infected the US population
like a plague.

This meme predates the founding of our country.
      There will always be greedy "hackers" and we used to know

that the only thing between them and the rest of us is
government regulation. But people now buy into the idea that
government regulation (indeed, anything the government does)
is bad because it prevents the rich from getting richer so
that they can trickle their wealth down to the rest of us. I
think the problem we have in this country is that leaders
since Reagan have successfully promulgated a system concept
that includes the idea that government is bad. Probably a
majority of the population has bought into this concept. I
think the only hope is for us to get a super charismatic
leader who can change the prevailing system concept
(zeitgeist) to one that is more like the one you describe with
you four points above (the one I believe was far more
prevalent prior to 1980). I thought Obama would be that person
but he’s not. But he’s working in the context of very racist,
reactionary resistance so maybe he’s doing the best possible
while avoiding brown shirt violence.

It was clear that Obama was a racist reactionary populist from the

beginning with his black liberation theology and class warfare
rhetoric. You are playing with fire when you attempt to exploit
the human vulnerability to personality cults and the left seems
especially prone to this. It is frightening to see it openly
embraced by you.

        Discovering what a person really wants, and doing what you

can to see it
is obtained, is the only means I can think of that might
work. To do that
you have to change yourself, since you can’t change the
other person. I
think one word for that attitude is love. Is that what that
guy in
Galilee was talking about, or the guy under the Bo tree? Is
respect for
the will of another what we really mean by that four-letter
word?

      Yes, you are supposed to love your enemies. But that's tough

to do when they are destroying the lives of other people with
their greed and lack of respect. I like Jesus’ message of
love but I also think it’s important to remember that, even
when he comes back, “the government shall be upon his
shoulders”; love, but verify;-)

At least you are skeptical of some personality cults.

-- Martin L
···

On 9/26/2011 1:30 PM, Richard Marken wrote:

  Best



  Rick

  --

  Richard S. Marken PhD

  rsmarken@gmail.com

  [www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com)

[From Fred Nickols (2011.27.0909 MDT)]

Well, I think I agree with most of what you say, Bill, except for one thing. I don’t know that I would unconditionally adopt a position of helping others get what they want. I think I’d first want to know what they want and I would then decide to (a) help, (b) not help or © oppose. If I were in an especially good mood I might try to go up a level or two to find out why they want what they want and maybe help them get that via other means. But the bottom line is that I would in fact judge the “goodness” and the “rightness” of what they’re after.

Fred Nickols

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 10:45 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: How Do You Say ‘Economic Security’?

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.25.0756 MDT)]

The New York Times E-mail This

This page was sent to you by: marken@mindreadings.com

Message from sender:
[From Rick Marken (2011.09.24.1410)] I think this is a very good article that is relevant to this group because the way I say “economic security” is “being in control”. Best Rick

Yes, a very inspiring article, especially since I woke up thinking about the same subject – where have the people gone in all these national discussions of economics?
Consequently, I couldn’t agree more when you say “economic security” is “being in control.” But I’d like to make that more specific – it’s being in control of your own life, not somebody else’s. Before my libertarian friends perk up and tell me I’ve finally seen the light, I’m not talking about government versus people, but people versus people.
It has seemed more and more to me that economics is not about “the economy.” It’s about who gets to control whom. That question, it seems to me, is behind every disagreement about how an economy ought to be organized, or even how a society ought to be organized. Who gets to say how many hours a day you can, or must, work, and how much you get paid for it? Who gets to judge the quality of your work and either reward or punish you for it as they judge to be appropriate? Who decides what laws you have broken and what is to happen to you as a consequence? Who decides whether you are a good citizen and may vote, or a bad one? Who decides what clothes, if any, you will wear, or what kind of car you can buy, or what substances you put into your body, or whether you can die when life is too much to cope with?
In economics, the question is “who gets control of the way things are done?” This boils down largely to the question of who gets the most money.
Long ago, perhaps, money was simply a convenient way of providing credit for goods supplied or work done. Without it, the same people could provide the same goods or do the same work for each other, but the impracticalities of a pure barter society or one based simply on good will are obvious. You can promise to make me a pair of shoes if I agree to read aloud to you every evening for a week, but how do I make sure I will actually get the shoes? It would be fine if you would make me the shoes because I need them, and if I would read to you because you enjoy it so much, but this way of doing things requires that you know exactly what I want and when I want it and I know the same about you, and that each of us can do it without suffering any negative consequences as a result which force us to break the agreement, or provide enough of an excuse as soon as we have what we want. It’s much more practical for each person to satisfy his or her (or both of their) own desires and rely as little as possible on other people doing that right. There are, of course, joys of community that require more than one person to satisfy, but while that’s more difficult, we can work that out together, too, without having to set up an elaborate system of rules that apply rigidly to everyone.
Money is just a way to keep track of who has promised what. If you pay me for reading to you, I don’t have to hang around barefoot until you finally make me those shoes. Etc. Unfortunately, money is also one of those programs supporting principles supporting system concepts that acts just like the conveniences of home computing. It allows for fast and easy interchanges of vital ideas, goods, and services between people, and by providing that very facility, it attracts the scavengers, like bears to honey and vultures to carrion. It attracts the hackers whose only thought is how to better their own position regardless of what doing that means for others. The bear doesn’t care why the bees made the honey; the vulture doesn’t care if the lost hiker is really quite dead. If you’re hungry, why not eat? The lower levels are working fine but there’s something missing upstairs.
Obviously, if a person can obtain a great deal of money for doing no more work than anyone else does, or preferably a great deal less work, that hacker can drain buying power out of the system for personal use without providing an equal benefit for those from whom the buying power was drained. The balance of trade is upset. Furthermore, the possessor of large stores of buying power can enlist the aid of those with less of it by offering them some of their money back if they will make and enforce rules that make the hacker’s position more secure. Simply by lending money to those in need, at interest, the hacker can use the stored buying power to make the store even greater. Of course it’s the hacker who creates a good deal of the need for money, so this is a self-sustaining strategy.
Inevitably, then, control shifts away from the people in general and into the hands of the hackers. Once that shift begins, it is self-propagating. Money begets money and power begets power. This is a positive feedback situation which is stable only at the extremes. Every now and then the changes reverse, and go to the opposite extreme, but if that is a low point where buying power is threatened, the hackers go into emergency mode and start the trend back to their side before the hackees can figure out what’s happening. Note that “buying power” means both money and using money to obtain power over others.
The solution to this systemic problem is twofold (at least).
First, we have to stop admiring hackers, however clever and talented they seem. They seem so only to the extent that they appeal to the hacker in all of us. We have to stop wanting to become rich, wealthy, happy hackers, too, and thus applauding those who have done so and like to brag about it. We can still approve of and seek happiness and wealth, but for all of us, not just some of us. That’s the only stable state, the only possible escape from cycles of boom and bust, tyranny and revolution, feast and famine, war and peace.
Cycles like these are signs of a bug in the system, a design problem. Simply trying to put the brakes on will not solve the problem because we can’t keep them on forever and they will wear out if we try. Just pushing back against the hackers will weaken the pushers and strengthen the resisters and make the conflict worse, or bring down the system entirely which is to nobody’s advantage (but that of the vultures).
Second, we have to understand how the system as a whole works. The role of money in an economy can be understood by constructing a working model without hackers in it, to see what the requirements are for stable operation. Once those conditions are known, we can investigate how hacking or gaming the system can be made somewhat unprofitable. If you stand to lose by trying to gain abnormal buying power, why would you do it?
Third, we have to shift our admiration to people who actually produce things and ideas of use to everyone. It’s simply not true that the most creative, organized, intelligent, and ambitious people are hackers. If anything, the reverse is more likely to be the case, and the hackers generally know this: they hire the creative etc. people. Creative people will create no matter what their financial status; intelligent people are not made stupid by lack of direction from outside. You can’t make anyone have newer better ideas by paying more for them. The most you can do by hiring smart and capable people is prevent anyone else from benefiting from their work through confidentiality agreements and other threats.
Fourth and last for now, we have to accomplish all the required changes while maintaining what Hugh Gibbons calls “respect for the will of others.” Not necessarily compliance, but respect in the sense of admitting that everyone has to direct his or her own life by doing what seems to be necessary.
A hacker is not an evil or stupid person, however often both adjectives may seem to apply. The hacker is behaving in a way that seems to accomplish certain goals. We have to continue asking “why” a little longer than usual.
Why does a person want a large amount of money? One reason may be simply to live better, to fulfill wants long unsatisfied. Perhaps the person wants power over other people. Why does the person want that power? Maybe because without it, the person can’t get certain other things – freedom from control by others, perhaps, or influence over what happens to himself, or admiration, or even love and respect. Any why does a person want those things? Perhaps – always perhaps, because people differ – perhaps because without things like love, respect, influence, and freedom, one does not feel like a worthy person, a person deserving of the good things in life, who does not feel secure in the present, in future life, or, depending on beliefs, in the next life.
Who knows? We simply have to ask and find out what these people want, and try to arrange for them to get it without doing the things tht tend to destroy the economy for those at the bottom. Denying them what they want is not the answer; the answer lies in finding out what they want and making sure, as far as we’re willing, that they can get it without thinking they have to control the rest of us.
I guess there is a fifth point. If a person says “I love you,” that is nice to hear and gives a good feeling. But if you say “I’ll give you ten dollars if you say ‘I love you’,” the same phrase loses all its ability to satisfy. It’s just a way of getting ten dollars and you have little reason to think that it’s meant. So just telling a recovering hacker that you admire his restraint or courage or honesty or ability to play a round of golf under 80 will not make the hacker feel satisfied if he or she knows you have an ulterior motive, that you’re just trying to help the hacker sober up and would say anything that might lead to that end. If you say you admire, approve, appreciate, or otherwise give a high grade to something about the hacker, you have to actually have those feelings – you must really admire something other than wealth, fame, and power. Insincerity is too easy to detect. You must actually hope that the hacker gets what he wants – what he really wants, not just the things that are only a destructive means to a seemingly worthy end.

Discovering what a person really wants, and doing what you can to see it is obtained, is the only means I can think of that might work. To do that you have to change yourself, since you can’t change the other person. I think one word for that attitude is love. Is that what that guy in Galilee was talking about, or the guy under the Bo tree? Is respect for the will of another what we really mean by that four-letter word?

Best,

Bill