from [ Marc Abrams (990503.2000) ]
Ken Kitzke, I anxiously await your definition of objectivity, and what
differentiates it from your definition of subjectivity. What happened to
it's _ALL_ perception?
Inquiring minds want to know 
Marc
from [ Kenny Kitzke (990503.1300) EDT ]
<Marc Abrams (990503.2000)>
<Ken Kitzke, I anxiously await your definition of objectivity, and what
differentiates it from your definition of subjectivity. What happened to
it's _ALL_ perception?
Inquiring minds want to know :-)>
Understanding the nuances between my understanding of objectivity and
subjectivity seems far more important to you than it is to me. Please be
assured that you can define and use these terms any way they are helpful to
you.
Since, as a fellow PCTer, you want to know for some reason unclear to me, I
will give you my subjective understanding of the difference.
Objectivity - Sensing perceptions without preconceived notions
Subjectivity - Sensing perceptions with preconceived notions
I have some socks which I find difficult with objectivity to perceive as dark
blue or black. This is especially difficult getting dressed in the morning
when it is still dark and I don't want to wake my wife by putting on the
bedroom lights.
I know there are many ways to objectively conclude whether this particular
pair is black or blue. Instead of doing any of that for a pair in doubt, I
subjectively decide they are black because they were in the drawer where I
keep black socks not because I can objectively sense the actual color
compared to some reference of what is black.
I think many variables we control are primarily subjective, i.e., our
perception of beauty or comfort. While there are some objective approaches
that we can use for our own purposes of making objective decisions (which
painting is more beautiful; which chair is more comfortable), I don't believe
we can say anything about how another human will perceive the same variables.
Chew on that. Then tell me how you perceive objectivity and subjectivity.
There could be differences. What are they and what does it matter to a
person who perceives objectively or subjectively?
Kenny
from [ Marc Abrams (990503.1327) ]
>From [ Kenny Kitzke (990503.1300) EDT ]
Understanding the nuances between my understanding of objectivity and
subjectivity seems far more important to you than it is to me. Please be
assured that you can define and use these terms any way they are helpful
to
you.
Since, as a fellow PCTer, you want to know for some reason unclear to me,
I
will give you my subjective understanding of the difference.
All you needed to do was ask :-). One reason I want to know ( btw, anything
we want to know is more important to the person wanting to know it then the
person being asked 
) what your definitions are because you seem to think
that there is some difference. I don't. I wanted to know what your thinking
was behind it. Nothing more, nothing less.
I appreciate the answer, Thank you.
Objectivity - Sensing perceptions without preconceived notions
If you don't have "preconceived notions" how do you know of the existense of
something?
If you know of the existence you must have "preconceived notions". If you
don't you would not know of it's existence, so how would you "know" it
Objectively?
Subjectivity - Sensing perceptions with preconceived notions
I have some socks which I find difficult with objectivity to perceive as
dark
blue or black. This is especially difficult getting dressed in the
morning
when it is still dark and I don't want to wake my wife by putting on the
bedroom lights.I know there are many ways to objectively conclude whether this particular
pair is black or blue. Instead of doing any of that for a pair in doubt,
I
subjectively decide they are black because they were in the drawer where I
keep black socks not because I can objectively sense the actual color
compared to some reference of what is black.I think many variables we control are primarily subjective, i.e., our
perception of beauty or comfort. While there are some objective
approaches
that we can use for our own purposes of making objective decisions (which
painting is more beautiful; which chair is more comfortable), I don't
believe
we can say anything about how another human will perceive the same
variables.
Chew on that. Then tell me how you perceive objectivity and subjectivity.
There could be differences. What are they and what does it matter to a
person who perceives objectively or subjectively?
I think it is _ALL_ perception ( i.e. your definition of subjective ) I do
not believe we are capable of "seeing" anything "objectively". You seem to
use the word objectivity as a way of talking about something that does not
include your personal biases, reference levels, and perceptions. As if you
have the capability if looking at something "outside" of yourself. I just
don't think that is possible.
Thanks again Ken for taking the time. There was no hidden agenda.
Marc
I still don't understand how you reconcile the "It's all perception" mantra
of PCT.