Of Blind Men and Colours

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.27.10.06NZT)

(Chad Green 2011.04.26.11.50EDT)

Hi there Chad

Here is something I was
thinking about. It’s still in it’s infancy of thought.

I want to explain PCT to
someone that has never heard of feedback systems, psychology or anything like
the terms we use.

I don’t want to use
the car driving analogy or the rubber band one.

Let’s call it a
colour world. (The world is made of seven colours)

In this world there are
seven colours of the rainbow.

Red, orange, yellow, green,
blue, indigo, violet.

Individuals belong to
only one group initially.

So initially they have a
red world mind or an orange world mind etc.

There are shades of reds
too and the individuals belonging to each specific colour world can see the
shades of their colours and ever so slight glimpses into the next colour. (Initially).

All the colour people do
actions that brighten their colours in their minds. Different actions for
different levels of brightness. (It’s a wonderful simple world). Their
actions are the tuning fork for their colour mind. In other words their actions
control the intensity of their mind colour.

For example the yellow
minded people “dance” to brighten dark yellow.

So when a yellow mind
person sees a red mind person dancing, the yellow mind person immediately
thinks the red mind person is helping to brighten their dark yellow and that’s
that. No conflict.

But in actual fact the
red mind persons dances to brighten “light red” mind. That’s
their tuning fork to control the colour mind.

It’s just a
wonderful simple world; the colour minded individuals just do things that
brighten their own colour minds. That is they control their own colour intensities.

Then the worlds start to
mix, red mind people meet other colour minded people. Now it becomes 5040 (7!) different
mixes of colour shades in the world instead of 7 separate worlds.

They start to create new
groups red-green and red-yellow, and blue-violet-orange.

All of a sudden there is a
massive fragmentation of groups but it’s not all bad because a new concentration
emerges. So now groups can have a number of actions (dancing, kissing,
touching) that control their brightness across a range of their mind colours.
Lots of different things they do control lots of different colour intensities.

But some actions seem to
dull the colours. This leaves some groups confused. Then they realise it was
the mixing that caused the problem, they look into their own group and see only
a few odd colours (amongst the many colors) in it. This they conclude is the
dull makers and the dull makers are immediately ejected from the group.

There are now many of the
ejected colour minds wondering around and eventually they all meet in another
place, there are many of these mixed colour minds. They create a vast mixed
colour mind group. (I wonder what country this could be).

But the mixed original
groups still find they have dullness and this really worries the groups even
though they have ejected the dull colour minds.

Then a few groups find a
substance that when rubbed on the skin brightens all the colours. This they now
assume to be a magic substance that will make their world perfect.

There is a problem
though, this substance is only found in a few of the colour group’s
territory.

No problem some of the
colour groups say, we will go and take it for ourselves.

It now becomes obvious to
all the groups that each of the other groups is the cause of their dullness because
they are taking away the magical brightness substance.

An all out conflict then
erupts between the groups.

The vast mixed group seem
to have the upper edge because there are so much of them.

Regards

Gavin

Actually what I think this discussion reveals is a
deeper truth of

which I was not aware until today. Until then I had
assumed that

everyone could adopt my Pollyannaish mentality, but
history tells us

otherwise…

On that note, is anyone familiar with Dumézil’s
trifunctional

hypothesis, a tripartite ideology that divides
Proto-Indo-European

civilization into three distinct classes or roles:
warriors, priests,

and commoners:

A similar social order known as the Three Estates was
conceived from

the Middle Ages until the beginning of the Industrial
Revolution:

Modern societies today reveal similar role patterns.
However, you

would expect this order to undergo considerable stress
given the nature

of globalization in an increasingly non-polar world

(The Age of Nonpolarity).

The only thing keeping it in place, perhaps, is
structures that provide

those in positions of sovereign power with first
access to information

and which at the same time conceal these processes
from public

scrutiny.

Let’s assume, shall we, that even these structures somehow
failed to

maintain the tripartite social order, resulting
perhaps in the

convergence of the three roles described above into a
singular role or

perspective, and thereby creating sufficient space for
two new role

perspectives to emerge.

Do you foresee this convergence as a possibility? If
so, what could

this new tripartite structure look like?

Cheers,

Chad

Chad Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ
4/26/2011 12:36 AM

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.26.16.06NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.04.25.2015)]

Chad Green (2011.04.25.1917 EDT)

cg: Thank you for the clarification, Rick. In that sense the

overall

message of PCT is reminiscent of the Platinum Rule:
"Treat others in

the way

they like to be treated."

I think the “message” of PCT is that you
can’t tell what a person is

doing by looking at what they are doing; so don’t jump
to conclusions

or infer intentions based on what you see people
doing.

And all along I thought they are controlling their
perceptions (or

internal

energies).

And because

people are intentional agents, there is always going
to be the

possibility of conflict.

It’s not a possibility; there will almost always be
conflict. Life is

conflict; in the animal kingdom it’s called the deadly
feast of life.

Conflict Management should be the new discipline.

In the human social affair, it’s luckily we don’t get
eaten

physically,

(anymore anyway, where I’m from it’s still a
possibility), but now it’s

a

mental battlefield. The concentrators vs. the
scatterers. Those that

want to

concentrate the energies and those that want to
scatter it.

So lighten up with those with whom you want

to get along and try to avoid those with whom you
don’t (or can’t).

Good advice.

Regards

Gavin

···

(Chad Green 2011.04.27.21.39EDT)

Gavin, do you perchance dabble in 4th order cybernetics? At that level
I suspect human communication as we currently know it does not apply.

Chad

Chad T. Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633
Web: http://cmsweb1.loudoun.k12.va.us/50910052783559/site/default.asp

There are no great organizations, just great workgroups.
-- Results from a study of 80,000 managers by The Gallup Organization

Gavin Ritz 04/26/11 8:58 PM >>>

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.27.10.06NZT)

(Chad Green 2011.04.26.11.50EDT)

Hi there Chad

Here is something I was thinking about. It�s still in it�s infancy of
thought.

I want to explain PCT to someone that has never heard of feedback
systems,
psychology or anything like the terms we use.

I don�t want to use the car driving analogy or the rubber band one.

Let�s call it a colour world. (The world is made of seven colours)

In this world there are seven colours of the rainbow.

Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet.

Individuals belong to only one group initially.

So initially they have a red world mind or an orange world mind etc.

There are shades of reds too and the individuals belonging to each
specific
colour world can see the shades of their colours and ever so slight
glimpses
into the next colour. (Initially).

All the colour people do actions that brighten their colours in their
minds.
Different actions for different levels of brightness. (It�s a wonderful
simple world). Their actions are the tuning fork for their colour mind.
In
other words their actions control the intensity of their mind colour.

For example the yellow minded people �dance� to brighten dark yellow.

So when a yellow mind person sees a red mind person dancing, the yellow
mind
person immediately thinks the red mind person is helping to brighten
their
dark yellow and that�s that. No conflict.

But in actual fact the red mind persons dances to brighten �light red�
mind.
That�s their tuning fork to control the colour mind.

It�s just a wonderful simple world; the colour minded individuals just
do
things that brighten their own colour minds. That is they control their
own
colour intensities.

Then the worlds start to mix, red mind people meet other colour minded
people. Now it becomes 5040 (7!) different mixes of colour shades in the
world instead of 7 separate worlds.

They start to create new groups red-green and red-yellow, and
blue-violet-orange.

All of a sudden there is a massive fragmentation of groups but it�s not
all
bad because a new concentration emerges. So now groups can have a number
of
actions (dancing, kissing, touching) that control their brightness
across a
range of their mind colours. Lots of different things they do control
lots
of different colour intensities.

But some actions seem to dull the colours. This leaves some groups
confused.
Then they realise it was the mixing that caused the problem, they look
into
their own group and see only a few odd colours (amongst the many colors)
in
it. This they conclude is the dull makers and the dull makers are
immediately ejected from the group.

There are now many of the ejected colour minds wondering around and
eventually they all meet in another place, there are many of these mixed
colour minds. They create a vast mixed colour mind group. (I wonder what
country this could be).

But the mixed original groups still find they have dullness and this
really
worries the groups even though they have ejected the dull colour minds.

Then a few groups find a substance that when rubbed on the skin
brightens
all the colours. This they now assume to be a magic substance that will
make
their world perfect.

There is a problem though, this substance is only found in a few of the
colour group�s territory.

No problem some of the colour groups say, we wi
ll go and take it for
ourselves.

It now becomes obvious to all the groups that each of the other groups
is
the cause of their dullness because they are taking away the magical
brightness substance.

An all out conflict then erupts between the groups.

The vast mixed group seem to have the upper edge because there are so
much
of them.

Regards

Gavin

Actually what I think this discussion reveals is a deeper truth of

which I was not aware until today. Until then I had assumed that

everyone could adopt my Pollyannaish mentality, but history tells us

otherwise....

On that note, is anyone familiar with Dum�zil's trifunctional

hypothesis, a tripartite ideology that divides Proto-Indo-European

civilization into three distinct classes or roles: warriors, priests,

and commoners:

A similar social order known as the Three Estates was conceived from

the Middle Ages until the beginning of the Industrial Revolution:

Modern societies today reveal similar role patterns. However, you

would expect this order to undergo considerable stress given the nature

of globalization in an increasingly non-polar world

(http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/63397/richard-n-haass/the-age-of-non
polarity).

The only thing keeping it in place, perhaps, is structures that provide

those in positions of sovereign power with first access to information

and which at the same time conceal these processes from public

scrutiny.

Let's assume, shall we, that even these structures somehow failed to

maintain the tripartite social order, resulting perhaps in the

convergence of the three roles described above into a singular role or

perspective, and thereby creating sufficient space for two new role

perspectives to emerge.

Do you foresee this convergence as a possibility? If so, what could

this new tripartite structure look like?

Cheers,

Chad

Chad Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Gavin Ritz 4/26/2011 12:36 AM >>>

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.26.16.06NZT)

[From Rick Marken (2011.04.25.2015)]

Chad Green (2011.04.25.1917 EDT)

cg: Thank you for the clarification, Rick. In that sense the

overall

message of PCT is reminiscent of the Platinum Rule: "Treat others in

the way

they like to be treated."

I think the "message" of PCT is that you can't tell what a person is

doing by looking at what they are doing; so don't jump to conclusions

or infer intentions based on what you see people doing.

And all along I thought they are controlling their perceptions (or

internal

energies).

And because

people are intentional agents, there is always going to be the

possibility of conflict.

It's not a possibility; there will almost always be conflict. Life is

conflict; in the animal kingdom it's called the deadly feast of life.

Conflict Management should be the new discipline.

In the human social affair, it's luckily we don't get eaten

physically,

(anymore anyway, where I'm from it's still a possibility), but now it's

a

mental battlefield. The concentrators vs. the scatterers. Those that

want to

concentrate the energies and those that want to scatter it.

So lighten up with those with whom you want

to get along and try to avoid those with whom you don't (or can't).

Good advice.

Regards

Gavin

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.28.14.31NZT)

(Chad Green 2011.04.27.21.39EDT)

Hi there Chad

I don’t know what 4th
order cybernetics is?

Anyway I was telling the
colour story to my wife, who I bounce ideas with. She thinks my colour world
story is crap. And I should rather write it for small kids. So much for that.

What I do like is
Mathematical category theory (MCT) and specifically toposes of which a dynamical
system is one such beast.

Why I like MCT is because
it has objects (beings) and maps (becomings) and it’s applicable from one
discipline to another.

It outlines clearly book-keeping
laws, identity laws, associativity laws, variety laws of parts, scarcity laws
of parts, abundance laws of parts, logic and truth laws of parts. Basically the
foundations of reality itself.

Regards

Gavin

Gavin, do you perchance dabble in 4th order
cybernetics? At that level

I suspect human communication as we currently know it
does not apply.

Chad

Chad T. Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Web:
http://cmsweb1.loudoun.k12.va.us/50910052783559/site/default.asp

There are no great organizations, just great
workgroups.

– Results from a study of 80,000 managers by The
Gallup Organization

Gavin Ritz 04/26/11 8:58 PM >>>

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.27.10.06NZT)

(Chad Green 2011.04.26.11.50EDT)

Hi there Chad

Here is something I was thinking about. It’s
still in it’s infancy of

thought.

I want to explain PCT to someone that has never heard
of feedback

systems,

psychology or anything like the terms we use.

I don’t want to use the car driving analogy or
the rubber band one.

Let’s call it a colour world. (The world is
made of seven colours)

In this world there are seven colours of the rainbow.

Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet.

Individuals belong to only one group initially.

So initially they have a red world mind or an orange
world mind etc.

There are shades of reds too and the individuals
belonging to each

specific

colour world can see the shades of their colours and
ever so slight

glimpses

into the next colour. (Initially).

All the colour people do actions that brighten their
colours in their

minds.

Different actions for different levels of brightness.
(It’s a wonderful

simple world). Their actions are the tuning fork for
their colour mind.

In

other words their actions control the intensity of
their mind colour.

For example the yellow minded people
“dance” to brighten dark yellow.

So when a yellow mind person sees a red mind person
dancing, the yellow

mind

person immediately thinks the red mind person is
helping to brighten

their

dark yellow and that’s that. No conflict.

But in actual fact the red mind persons dances to
brighten “light red”

mind.

That’s their tuning fork to control the colour
mind.

It’s just a wonderful simple world; the colour
minded individuals just

do

things that brighten their own colour minds. That is
they control their

own

colour intensities.

Then the worlds start to mix, red mind people meet
other colour minded

people. Now it becomes 5040 (7!) different mixes of
colour shades in the

world instead of 7 separate worlds.

They start to create new groups red-green and
red-yellow, and

blue-violet-orange.

All of a sudden there is a massive fragmentation of
groups but it’s not

all

bad because a new concentration emerges. So now groups
can have a number

of

actions (dancing, kissing, touching) that control
their brightness

across a

range of their mind colours. Lots of different things
they do control

lots

of different colour intensities.

But some actions seem to dull the colours. This leaves
some groups

confused.

Then they realise it was the mixing that caused the
problem, they look

into

their own group and see only a few odd colours
(amongst the many colors)

in

it. This they conclude is the dull makers and the dull
makers are

immediately ejected from the group.

There are now many of the ejected colour minds
wondering around and

eventually they all meet in another place, there are
many of these mixed

colour minds. They create a vast mixed colour mind
group. (I wonder what

country this could be).

But the mixed original groups still find they have
dullness and this

really

worries the groups even though they have ejected the
dull colour minds.

Then a few groups find a substance that when rubbed on
the skin

brightens

all the colours. This they now assume to be a magic
substance that will

make

their world perfect.

There is a problem though, this substance is only
found in a few of the

colour group’s territory.

No problem some of the colour groups say, we wi

ll go and take it for

ourselves.

It now becomes obvious to all the groups that each of
the other groups

is

the cause of their dullness because they are taking
away the magical

brightness substance.

An all out conflict then erupts between the groups.

The vast mixed group seem to have the upper edge
because there are so

much

of them.

Regards

Gavin

Actually what I think this discussion reveals is a
deeper truth of

which I was not aware until today. Until then I had
assumed that

everyone could adopt my Pollyannaish mentality, but
history tells us

otherwise…

On that note, is anyone familiar with Dumézil’s
trifunctional

hypothesis, a tripartite ideology that divides
Proto-Indo-European

civilization into three distinct classes or roles:
warriors, priests,

and commoners:

A similar social order known as the Three Estates was
conceived from

the Middle Ages until the beginning of the Industrial
Revolution:

Modern societies today reveal similar role patterns.
However, you

would expect this order to undergo considerable stress
given the nature

of globalization in an increasingly non-polar world

(http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/63397/richard-n-haass/the-age-of-non

polarity).

The only thing keeping it in place, perhaps, is
structures that provide

those in positions of sovereign power with first
access to information

and which at the same time conceal these processes
from public

scrutiny.

Let’s assume, shall we, that even these structures
somehow failed to

maintain the tripartite social order, resulting
perhaps in the

convergence of the three roles described above into a
singular role or

perspective, and thereby creating sufficient space for
two new role

perspectives to emerge.

Do you foresee this convergence as a possibility? If
so, what could

this new tripartite structure look like?

Cheers,

Chad

Chad Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Gavin Ritz 4/26/2011 12:36 AM

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.26.16.06NZT)

[From Rick Marken (2011.04.25.2015)]

Chad Green (2011.04.25.1917 EDT)

cg: Thank you for the clarification, Rick. In
that sense the

overall

message of PCT is reminiscent of the Platinum Rule:
"Treat others in

the way

they like to be treated."

I think the “message” of PCT is that you
can’t tell what a person is

doing by looking at what they are doing; so don’t jump
to conclusions

or infer intentions based on what you see people
doing.

And all along I thought they are controlling their
perceptions (or

internal

energies).

And because

people are intentional agents, there is always going
to be the

possibility of conflict.

It’s not a possibility; there will almost always be
conflict. Life is

conflict; in the animal kingdom it’s called the deadly
feast of life.

Conflict Management should be the new discipline.

In the human social affair, it’s luckily we don’t get
eaten

physically,

(anymore anyway, where I’m from it’s still a
possibility), but now it’s

a

mental battlefield. The concentrators vs. the
scatterers. Those that

want to

concentrate the energies and those that want to
scatter it.

So lighten up with those with whom you want

to get along and try to avoid those with whom you
don’t (or can’t).

Good advice.

Regards

Gavin

···

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.28.14.33NZT)

(Chad Green 2011.04.27.21.39EDT)

(Gavin Ritz 2011.04.27.10.06NZT)

(Chad Green 2011.04.26.11.50EDT)

Hi there Chad

I thought there were
only two orders but obviously not.

http://attainable-utopias.org/tiki/FourthOrderCybernetics

Just a quick peek at
this it’s just really an average (a spare) description of a Mathematical Topoi,
with some omissions.

This is Stuart
Umpleby’s version of the orders
http://www.gwu.edu/~umpleby/recent_papers/2001_what_comes_after_second_order_cybernetics.htm

Otherwise Francis
Heylighen’s web site is the other
source. http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/secorcyb.html

PCT features on this
site too.

I have been on both
those list in the last 15 years maybe ask Francis
or Stuart about Fourth
order Cybernetics I have both their emails if you want.

Regards

Gavin

···