Of Blind Men, Elephants and the Economy/Talk Show I

>> RM: I think a specialized economy will continue because there are tons of
>> things in the social system that generate specialization...

> BP: Is the intent of this answer to show that there is no need to model the
> development of specialization -- i.e., to show that it is already
> sufficiently accounted for and doesn't need further explanation in PCT
> terms?

No.

> I'm guessing. You know better than I do what the answer is intended to show.

Yes, I do:-)

MODERATOR:

OK, I give up. What is it?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2011.05.21.0235 MDT)]

> MODERATOR:
>
> This is what I get so far:
>
> The model will be changed until it produces division of labor
>
> if division of labor is achieved it will allow for trading
>
> division of labor is a test of the ability to allocate time and effort to
> tasks.
>
> The last point seems like a digression. Logically my next question would be
> not about allocation of time and effort, but about trading, which seems to
> be the highest goal so far. If you allow for trading, what does that
> accomplish? I'm trying to get a picture of the way your project is
> structured: Do A to accomplish B; accomplish B to accomplish C, and so on.
> Can you sort this out for me? How are the means and ends arranged?
>

ANSWER: AM:
OK. I start with a model I think will produce the division of labor
and trading and change the model until that happens.

If trading between agents is done like trading between people, then
the model can be used to understand the mechanisms of the economy -
how exactly things like inflation, various price fixing, increases in
productivity, shortages of goods happen or how they affect other
variables.

MODERATOR:

I see that my question was ambiguous. "If you allow for trading, what does that accomplish?" was the question. I wasn't asking about your personal aims, but about what the ability to trade accomplishes for the trader in the model. What is the purpose of participating in trading? What does doing that accomplish for the trader?

Another question might clarify matters. In the US economy, about what fraction of the population spends a signficant part of its time in trading? Do some people spend more time and effort on trading than others do? What is the relationship between those who do and those who don't?

Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2011.05.21.10.28]

[From Bill Powers (2011.05.21.0235 MDT)]

MODERATOR:

I see that my question was ambiguous. "If you allow for trading, what does that accomplish?" was the question. I wasn't asking about your personal aims, but about what the ability to trade accomplishes for the trader in the model. What is the purpose of participating in trading? What does doing that accomplish for the trader?

Another question might clarify matters. In the US economy, about what fraction of the population spends a signficant part of its time in trading? Do some people spend more time and effort on trading than others do? What is the relationship between those who do and those who don't?

To me, the first quoted paragraph is clear, the second is not. Do you know anyone who does not buy any goods or services? Maybe you and Adam and/or Bob have a different definition of "trading", or I have a definition different from all of you. Mine includes trading money for goods and services. But this definition would make your last question meaningless.

I suspect you don't intend to ask a question for which the answer is within epsilon of 100%.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.21.0830)]

>BP: I'm guessing. You know better than I do what the answer is intended to
> show.

Yes, I do:-)

MODERATOR:

OK, I give up. What is it?

I didn't want to take the time to go into a whole thing about why I
though modeling the development of specialization was of no interest
to me. But I'll just do a few quick bullets:

1) I don't think there is any serious contention about the fact that
economies are based on specialized production.

2) How specialization came about is an interesting question but not,
it seems to me, particularly relevant to the economic disagreements
we've been having on the net.

3) I don't see any way of validating such a model. We have no data (as
far as I know) on the state of specialization over the last 100,000 or
so years that it developed.

4) When I think about what would be involved in writing such a model
the complexities and options seem to be overwhelming. So it seem like
it could be a huge effort to produce a model that, even if it worked,
could not be validated.

5) I also think that there are so many different ways to produce a
model that specializes that it just seems like a fairly hopeless
enterprise. But if someone actually wants to do it I'd certainly be
interested in seeing it.

Best

Rick

···

On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2011.05.21.0235 MDT)]

MODERATOR:

I see that my question was ambiguous. "If you allow for trading, what does that accomplish?" was the question. I wasn't asking about your personal aims, but about what the ability to trade accomplishes for the trader in the model. What is the purpose of participating in trading? What does doing that accomplish for the trader?

Another question might clarify matters. In the US economy, about what fraction of the population spends a signficant part of its time in trading? Do some people spend more time and effort on trading than others do? What is the relationship between those who do and those who don't?

COMMENT: [Martin Taylor 2011.05.21.10.28]

To me, the first quoted paragraph is clear, the second is not. Do you know anyone who does not buy any goods or services? Maybe you and Adam and/or Bob have a different definition of "trading", or I have a definition different from all of you. Mine includes trading money for goods and services. But this definition would make your last question meaningless.

MODERATOR: who is having a bit of trouble defining this role ...

My question was prompted by wondering whether "trade" is being defined in the same way "decision" is defined by some people. Many people talk as if every situation in which more than one action might occur -- turning left or right at an intersection -- requires a decision to be made. Under this definition, life is an endless series of decisions, whether or not a given person actually makes such decisions. I am hearing definitions of "trade" that are similar, in that every possible exchange is measured in terms of gain and loss whether or not a given person engaged in a particular exchange views it that way or actually compares the gains with the losses.

Ah, this does suggest a question. Are the definitions of trade being used in this discussion intended to be objective -- that is, to have meaning independent of the perceptions and intentions of the individuals doing the trading? If so, then where or by whom are the judgments of gain and loss being made?

Rick Marken is offering an alternative to the "trade" concept of an exchange of goods and services. The action of an individual -- spending money or performing labor in this case -- is treated not as a trade of money or labor for something else, but as a means of control. As with all means of control, using it may disturb some other controlled variable so there is potential for conflict. Could this be an alternative interpretation of the balancing of gains and losses in trades?

Best,

Bill P.

MODERATOR:

I see that my question was ambiguous. "If you allow for trading, what does
that accomplish?" was the question. I wasn't asking about your personal
aims, but about what the ability to trade accomplishes for the trader in the
model. What is the purpose of participating in trading? What does doing that
accomplish for the trader?

Another question might clarify matters. In the US economy, about what
fraction of the population spends a signficant part of its time in trading?
Do some people spend more time and effort on trading than others do? What is
the relationship between those who do and those who don't?

AM:
Trade is any exchange of money for some good or service. Trading is
controlling the amount of money by various means.
Buying is controlling some variable by exchanging money for it.
Selling is controlling the amount of money (increasing it) by
providing someone with a good or service.

So, selling allows increasing the money, and more money allows
satisfaction of needs. Trade allows satisfaction of needs better than
production.

Best
Adam

[Martin Taylor 2011.05.21.15.06]

COMMENT: [Martin Taylor 2011.05.21.10.28]

To me, the first quoted paragraph is clear, the second is not. Do you know anyone who does not buy any goods or services? Maybe you and Adam and/or Bob have a different definition of "trading", or I have a definition different from all of you. Mine includes trading money for goods and services. But this definition would make your last question meaningless.

MODERATOR: who is having a bit of trouble defining this role ...

I beg your pardon. I'll butt out of this thread, then.

Martin

[From Bill Powers (21011.05.21.1410 MDT)]

[Martin Taylor 2011.05.21.15.06]

COMMENT: [Martin Taylor 2011.05.21.10.28]

To me, the first quoted paragraph is clear, the second is not. Do you know anyone who does not buy any goods or services? Maybe you and Adam and/or Bob have a different definition of "trading", or I have a definition different from all of you. Mine includes trading money for goods and services. But this definition would make your last question meaningless.

MODERATOR: who is having a bit of trouble defining this role ...

I beg your pardon. I'll butt out of this thread, then.

I just meant that I'm having trouble defining my role as Moderator, and staying in it (which obviously I'm not doing now). It's hard to think of a question to ask while I'm stuffing my opinions back where they came from. I'm trying "float above the fray" and exert pressure in the up-level direction without being too obnoxious about it, and it's harder than I thought it would be.

Your comments are welcome.

Best,

Bill P.

> MODERATOR:
>
> I see that my question was ambiguous. "If you allow for trading, what does
> that accomplish?" was the question. I wasn't asking about your personal
> aims, but about what the ability to trade accomplishes for the trader in the
> model. What is the purpose of participating in trading? What does doing that
> accomplish for the trader?
>
> Another question might clarify matters. In the US economy, about what
> fraction of the population spends a signficant part of its time in trading?
> Do some people spend more time and effort on trading than others do? What is
> the relationship between those who do and those who don't?

ANSWER: AM at 08:13 PM 5/21/2011 +0200:

Trade is any exchange of money for some good or service. Trading is
controlling the amount of money by various means.
Buying is controlling some variable by exchanging money for it.
Selling is controlling the amount of money (increasing it) by
providing someone with a good or service.

COMMENT FROM SUSPENDED MODERATOR: The reason I keep bringing up the intention of the trader, and asking whether the definition is supposed to be objective, is that I see great differences in the amount of trading that different people do. Even under your definition, which doesn't seem to me like trading when I do it, I do what you describe only perhaps two or three times a day for a couple of minutes each time, and don't think I am really trading anything. At least it's not my conscious intention to end up with more than I started with when I pay for a chocolate shake which I then drink, after which it's gone. On the other hand, the guy who used to pass me at 6:30 in the morning on the freeway in his Porsche and show me his license plate which said "ISELLEM" was on his way to some stock or commodity exchange where he would spend the rest of the day making several intentional trades a minute and knowing he was doing so. So ...

MODERATOR (back from vacation):
If a person making an exchange of money for goods or services doesn't have the intention of ending up better off, would you say he is "really" trying to do that and is therefore trading? Or does a person's perception and reference level determine what the person is really doing?

Best,

Bill P.

MODERATOR (back from vacation):
If a person making an exchange of money for goods or services doesn't have
the intention of ending up better off, would you say he is "really" trying
to do that and is therefore trading? Or does a person's perception and
reference level determine what the person is really doing?

AM:
I'd say the person is controling the amount of some good by exchanging
money for it. I would also call that trading and the person would be
"better off" in terms of the good bought - the variable would be
closer to reference; and worse off in terms of money because there
would be less of it.

In terms of the model, an average agent would spend most of his time
producing one or two goods, then exchange the excess of those goods
for money from other agents, then buy what else he needs, with
consumption hapening constantly. I'd call those exchanges trading and
wheather the person is better off or worse off depends on what
variable is looked at.

Best
Adam

> MODERATOR (back from vacation):
> If a person making an exchange of money for goods or services doesn't have
> the intention of ending up better off, would you say he is "really" trying
> to do that and is therefore trading? Or does a person's perception and
> reference level determine what the person is really doing?
>

ANSWER: AM 5/22/2011 +0200:
I'd say the person is controling the amount of some good by exchanging
money for it. I would also call that trading and the person would be
"better off" in terms of the good bought - the variable would be
closer to reference; and worse off in terms of money because there
would be less of it.

MODERATOR:
So are you measuring how well off the person is in terms of error signals? Does correcting an error leave you better off than you were before the error occurred?

ANSWER continued:In terms of the model, an average agent would spend most of his time producing one or two goods, then exchange the excess of those goods
for money from other agents, then buy what else he needs, with
consumption hapening constantly. I'd call those exchanges trading and
wheather the person is better off or worse off depends on what
variable is looked at.

MODERATOR: Are you imagining a society in which everyone works to produce directly some of what he needs and directly sells the surplus to others? How does this relate to the present economic system?

Why would a person make more goods than he can use?

Also, who is deciding whether there is an error or not?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Adam Matic 2011.05.23 1545 gmt+1]

AM 5/22/2011 +0200:
I'd say the person is controling the amount of some good by exchanging
money for it. I would also call that trading and the person would be
"better off" in terms of the good bought - the variable would be
closer to reference; and worse off in terms of money because there
would be less of it.

MODERATOR:
So are you measuring how well off the person is in terms of error signals?
Does correcting an error leave you better off than you were before the error
occurred?

AM:
Yes and no. I'd say that the control loop is "better off" if there is
less error signal, but I wouldn't say that the person is necessarily
better off. I wouldn't actually measure how well off someone is. In a
finished model, I would just look at prices and amounts of goods.

AM, ANSWER continued:In terms of the model, an average agent would spend most
of his time producing one or two goods, then exchange the excess of those
goods
for money from other agents, then buy what else he needs, with
consumption hapening constantly. I'd call those exchanges trading and
whether the person is better off or worse off depends on what
variable is looked at.

MODERATOR: Are you imagining a society in which everyone works to produce
directly some of what he needs and directly sells the surplus to others?

AM:
Yes, exactly.

MODERATOR: How does this relate to the present economic system?

AM:
It relates more to a primitive economic system. However, there might
be similar (or identical) dynamics in exchange, the fluctuation of
prices and things like that.

Why would a person make more goods than he can use?

AM:
He wouldn't. He would make as much as he can use, but "using" is both
consuming and selling. The amount of good to be produced, the
reference level, would come from a higher level, which also controls
reference levels for other goods.

MODERATOR: Also, who is deciding whether there is an error or not?

AM:
I'm don't understand this one.

Best
Adam

>ANSWER: [From Adam Matic 2011.05.23 1545 gmt+1]:
> I'd say the person is controling the amount of some good by exchanging
> money for it. I would also call that trading and the person would be
> "better off" in terms of the good bought - the variable would be
> closer to reference; and worse off in terms of money because there
> would be less of it.
>
> MODERATOR:
> So are you measuring how well off the person is in terms of error signals?
> Does correcting an error leave you better off than you were before the error
> occurred?

AM:
Yes and no. I'd say that the control loop is "better off" if there is
less error signal, but I wouldn't say that the person is necessarily
better off. I wouldn't actually measure how well off someone is. In a
finished model, I would just look at prices and amounts of goods.

MODERATOR; The question was whether the person would be better off than before the error occurred (when there was no error) -- before a disturbance or a change of reference gave rise to the error signal.

>> AM, ANSWER continued:In terms of the model, an average agent would spend most
>> of his time producing one or two goods, then exchange the excess of those
>> goods
>> for money from other agents, then buy what else he needs, with
>> consumption hapening constantly. I'd call those exchanges trading and
>> whether the person is better off or worse off depends on what
>> variable is looked at.
>
> MODERATOR: Are you imagining a society in which everyone works to produce
> directly some of what he needs and directly sells the surplus to others?

AM:
Yes, exactly.

> MODERATOR: How does this relate to the present economic system?

AM:
It relates more to a primitive economic system. However, there might
be similar (or identical) dynamics in exchange, the fluctuation of
prices and things like that.

> Why would a person make more goods than he can use?

AM:
He wouldn't. He would make as much as he can use, but "using" is both
consuming and selling. The amount of good to be produced, the
reference level, would come from a higher level, which also controls
reference levels for other goods.

>MODERATOR: Also, who is deciding whether there is an error or not?

AM:
I'm don't understand this one.

MODERATOR: Who decides whether the object of a trade is to be better off than before the trade, and thus defines what constitutes an error?

I am hearing from several sources that it is simply human nature to try to get more than one had before. You can, of course build that into your model if you wish. But before the model can be taken as significant, you have to show that this desire actually exists, or at least find out what proportion of the people have it. So let me phrase that as a question:

In the model you design, what fraction of the individuals will have as a reference level a continual increase in the amount or quality of goods and services being consumed? And how will you determine what the correct fraction is?

Best,

Bill P.

···

At 03:44 PM 5/23/2011 +0200, you wrote:

Best
Adam

[From Adam Matic 2011.05.24 1900 gmt+1]:

MODERATOR; The question was whether the person would be better off than
before the error occurred (when there was no error) -- before a disturbance
or a change of reference gave rise to the error signal.

AM:
Yes? I'm not sure. If someone had a need, a goal, an error and managed
to reach it, correct it, I guess it could be said that the person is
better off. Right?

MODERATOR: Who decides whether the object of a trade is to be better off
than before the trade, and thus defines what constitutes an error?

I am hearing from several sources that it is simply human nature to try to
get more than one had before. You can, of course build that into your model
if you wish. But before the model can be taken as significant, you have to
show that this desire actually exists, or at least find out what proportion
of the people have it. So let me phrase that as a question:

In the model you design, what fraction of the individuals will have as a
reference level a continual increase in the amount or quality of goods and
services being consumed? And how will you determine what the correct
fraction is?

AM:
Let me put it this way: everyone starts with some needs and fulfills
them by producing. His other options, or means to fulfill the needs
are trading with various other agents who produce the good that
fulfills the need. It's not just produce vs trade, but produce vs
trade with agent A, trade with agent B, and so on.
So, a person is better off if he trades with person A than when
producing by himself not simply because he got more of what he needed,
but because he got exactly what he needed in less time, and thus has
more time to fulfill his other needs.
Similarly, he is better of when trading with person B than with person
A if person B provides the good for less money. That also equals more
time to fulfill other needs.
Does that sound more like human nature?

Best
Adam

[Martin Lewitt 24 May 2011 1108 MDT]

There is some sort of vacuum at the inferred or hypothesized higher levels of the PCT hierarchy. Perhaps some of the controlled variables are never or rarely at zero error (due to human nature?), and are capable of generating new controlled variables. Was there a controlled variable that was in error, before iPhones existed? What happens when opportunities come into existence that didn't exist before, such as when an opportunity to trade comes into awareness, perhaps when one person meets another with a different distribution of goods? Is there a controlled variable for opportunity that is never satisfied, but always in error? Are there people who are not controlling for or recognizing opportunities?

Martin L

···

On 5/24/2011 8:56 AM, Bill Powers wrote:

At 03:44 PM 5/23/2011 +0200, you wrote:

>ANSWER: [From Adam Matic 2011.05.23 1545 gmt+1]:
> I'd say the person is controling the amount of some good by exchanging
> money for it. I would also call that trading and the person would be
> "better off" in terms of the good bought - the variable would be
> closer to reference; and worse off in terms of money because there
> would be less of it.
>
> MODERATOR:
> So are you measuring how well off the person is in terms of error signals?
> Does correcting an error leave you better off than you were before the error
> occurred?

AM:
Yes and no. I'd say that the control loop is "better off" if there is
less error signal, but I wouldn't say that the person is necessarily
better off. I wouldn't actually measure how well off someone is. In a
finished model, I would just look at prices and amounts of goods.

MODERATOR; The question was whether the person would be better off than before the error occurred (when there was no error) -- before a disturbance or a change of reference gave rise to the error signal.

>> AM, ANSWER continued:In terms of the model, an average agent would spend most
>> of his time producing one or two goods, then exchange the excess of those
>> goods
>> for money from other agents, then buy what else he needs, with
>> consumption hapening constantly. I'd call those exchanges trading and
>> whether the person is better off or worse off depends on what
>> variable is looked at.
>
> MODERATOR: Are you imagining a society in which everyone works to produce
> directly some of what he needs and directly sells the surplus to others?

AM:
Yes, exactly.

> MODERATOR: How does this relate to the present economic system?

AM:
It relates more to a primitive economic system. However, there might
be similar (or identical) dynamics in exchange, the fluctuation of
prices and things like that.

> Why would a person make more goods than he can use?

AM:
He wouldn't. He would make as much as he can use, but "using" is both
consuming and selling. The amount of good to be produced, the
reference level, would come from a higher level, which also controls
reference levels for other goods.

>MODERATOR: Also, who is deciding whether there is an error or not?

AM:
I'm don't understand this one.

MODERATOR: Who decides whether the object of a trade is to be better off than before the trade, and thus defines what constitutes an error?

I am hearing from several sources that it is simply human nature to try to get more than one had before. You can, of course build that into your model if you wish. But before the model can be taken as significant, you have to show that this desire actually exists, or at least find out what proportion of the people have it. So let me phrase that as a question:

In the model you design, what fraction of the individuals will have as a reference level a continual increase in the amount or quality of goods and services being consumed? And how will you determine what the correct fraction is?

Best,

Bill P.

Best
Adam

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.25.0835)]

Martin Lewitt (24 May 2011 1108 MDT) --

There is some sort of vacuum at the inferred or hypothesized higher levels
of the PCT hierarchy.

Not really. See my spreadsheet simulation of a control hierarchy at
http://www.mindreadings.com/ControlDemo/SPRDSHT.ZIP&quot; to see how the
higher levels of the hierarchical model work. There is no "vacuum" up
there; just control systems with fixed references.

Perhaps some of the controlled variables are never or
rarely at zero error (due to human nature?),

Controlled variables are never in error. Error is the difference
between perception (controlled variable) and reference. And while the
error in any control system can be zero, error is almost always
greater than zero, even when control is good. But when control is
good, error is generally a fraction of what it would be if the gain of
the control system were zero (no control).

and are capable of generating new controlled variables.

Error in higher level systems drives the outputs of these systems
which _vary_ the references of lower level systems. Hopefully, you
will see how this works if you download my spreadsheet simulation.

Was there a controlled variable that was in error, before iPhones existed?

The iPhone is just a new means of achieving several existing higher
level goals: communication, personal scheduling, amusement, etc. These
are all higher level controlled variables. The iPhone ican be thought
of one level of a somewhat lower level variable (a variable means of
communicating) that can be used to achieve these higher level goals.

�What happens when opportunities come into
existence that didn't exist before,

I would say that the controller learns of the existence of these new
opportunities (means of controlling higher level variables), learns
how these means might be used to achieve higher level goals and then
uses them to the extent that doing so is consistent with control of
all the other variables under control (such as one's budget).

such as when an opportunity to trade
comes into awareness, perhaps when one person meets another with a different
distribution of goods? �Is there a controlled variable for opportunity that
is never satisfied, but always in error? �Are there people who are not
controlling for or recognizing opportunities?

Of course. You have to know that opportunities (possible means of
control) exist (this is the job of education and, perhaps,
advertising) and then be able to evaluate the merits of the
opportunity to determine whether taking it would actually improve your
overall performance as a control system. The latter is very hard --
probably impossible -- to do. For example, the iPhone improved my
ability to control many variables that I control but it also has made
some of my controlling a bit worse. But still I would say it has been
a net plus, control wise.

Best

Rick

···

Martin L

On 5/24/2011 8:56 AM, Bill Powers wrote:

At 03:44 PM 5/23/2011 +0200, you wrote:

>ANSWER: [From Adam Matic 2011.05.23 1545 gmt+1]:
> I'd say the person is controling the amount of some good by exchanging
> money for it. I would also call that trading and the person would be
> "better off" in terms of the good bought - the variable would be
> closer to reference; and worse off in terms of money because there
> would be less of it.
>
> MODERATOR:
> So are you measuring how well off the person is in terms of error
> signals?
> Does correcting an error leave you better off than you were before the
> error
> occurred?

AM:
Yes and no. I'd say that the control loop is "better off" if there is
less error signal, but I wouldn't say that the person is necessarily
better off. I wouldn't actually measure how well off someone is. In a
finished model, I would just look at prices and amounts of goods.

MODERATOR; The question was whether the person would be better off than
before the error occurred (when there was no error) -- before a disturbance
or a change of reference gave rise to the error signal.

>> AM, ANSWER continued:In terms of the model, an average agent would
>> spend most
>> of his time producing one or two goods, then exchange the excess of
>> those
>> goods
>> for money from other agents, then buy what else he needs, with
>> consumption hapening constantly. I'd call those exchanges trading and
>> whether the person is better off or worse off depends on what
>> variable is looked at.
>
> MODERATOR: Are you imagining a society in which everyone works to
> produce
> directly some of what he needs and directly sells the surplus to
> others?

AM:
Yes, exactly.

> MODERATOR: How does this relate to the present economic system?

AM:
It relates more to a primitive economic system. However, there might
be similar (or identical) dynamics in exchange, the fluctuation of
prices and things like that.

> Why would a person make more goods than he can use?

AM:
He wouldn't. He would make as much as he can use, but "using" is both
consuming and selling. The amount of good to be produced, the
reference level, would come from a higher level, which also controls
reference levels for other goods.

>MODERATOR: Also, who is deciding whether there is an error or not?

AM:
I'm don't understand this one.

MODERATOR: Who decides whether the object of a trade is to be better off
than before the trade, and thus defines what constitutes an error?

I am hearing from several sources that it is simply human nature to try to
get more than one had before. You can, of course build that into your model
if you wish. But before the model can be taken as significant, you have to
show that this desire actually exists, or at least find out what proportion
of the people have it. So let me phrase that as a question:

In the model you design, what fraction of the individuals will have as a
reference level a continual increase in the amount or quality of goods and
services being consumed? And how will you determine what the correct
fraction is?

Best,

Bill P.

Best
Adam

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.25.0920)]

Minor Correction:

I said:

The iPhone ican be thought
of one level of a somewhat lower level variable (a variable means of
communicating) that can be used to achieve these higher level goals.

It would have been a bit clearer if I had saud:

The iPhone ican be thought
of one STATE or VALUE of a somewhat lower level variable (a variable means of
communicating) that can be used to achieve these higher level goals.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

MODERATOR: Who decides whether the object of a trade is to be better off
> than before the trade, and thus defines what constitutes an error?

> I am hearing from several sources that it is simply human nature to try to
> get more than one had before. You can, of course build that into your model
> if you wish. But before the model can be taken as significant, you have to
> show that this desire actually exists, or at least find out what proportion
> of the people have it. So let me phrase that as a question:

> In the model you design, what fraction of the individuals will have as a
> reference level a continual increase in the amount or quality of goods and
> services being consumed? And how will you determine what the correct
> fraction is?

ANSWER Adam Matic 2011.05.24 1900 gmt+1

Let me put it this way: everyone starts with some needs and fulfills
them by producing. His other options, or means to fulfill the needs
are trading with various other agents who produce the good that
fulfills the need. It's not just produce vs trade, but produce vs
trade with agent A, trade with agent B, and so on.
So, a person is better off if he trades with person A than when
producing by himself not simply because he got more of what he needed,
but because he got exactly what he needed in less time, and thus has
more time to fulfill his other needs.
Similarly, he is better of when trading with person B than with person
A if person B provides the good for less money. That also equals more
time to fulfill other needs.
Does that sound more like human nature?

MODERATOR: When you speak of fulfilling needs, are you referring to correcting some error? If so, this relates to the previous unanswered question. Before you sense the need there is little error of that kind; after the error appears, you take action to reduce the error; after the error is reduced, are you better off than you were before the error appeared in the first place?

Whatever action is taken, it restores the needy state to the former state, whatever it was. The question posed by Moderator above was about how many people have a goal of not just correcting error, but of ending up with more of something -- money or goods -- than they started with. And for those who do, what error is corrected by doing that?

Finally, is there only one human nature, so we all seek the same things in the same way?

Best,

Bill P.

···

Best
Adam

MODERATOR: Who decides whether the object of a trade is to be better off than before the trade, and thus defines what constitutes an error?

I am hearing from several sources that it is simply human nature to try to get more than one had before. You can, of course build that into your model if you wish. But before the model can be taken as significant, you have to show that this desire actually exists, or at least find out what proportion of the people have it. So let me phrase that as a question:

In the model you design, what fraction of the individuals will have as a reference level a continual increase in the amount or quality of goods and services being consumed? And how will you determine what the correct fraction is?

COMMENT: [Martin Lewitt 24 May 2011 1108 MDT]

There is some sort of vacuum at the inferred or hypothesized higher levels of the PCT hierarchy. Perhaps some of the controlled variables are never or rarely at zero error (due to human nature?), and are capable of generating new controlled variables. Was there a controlled variable that was in error, before iPhones existed? What happens when opportunities come into existence that didn't exist before, such as when an opportunity to trade comes into awareness, perhaps when one person meets another with a different distribution of goods? Is there a controlled variable for opportunity that is never satisfied, but always in error? Are there people who are not controlling for or recognizing opportunities?

COMMENT: Bill Powers (2011.05.1055 MDT)]

In an undisturbed state, a control system maintains its controlled variable just near enough to the reference level to produce just enough error, and thus just enough output, to maintain the controlled variable in that state. The amount of error that remains at equilibrium depends on the loop gain; the higher the loop gain, the less the amount of error that remains.

To answer the question about iPhones, we must know what controlled variable is brought closer to its reference level by owning one. An obvious one is freedom of communication; another one is a relationship to peers ("everybody else has one..."). There may be simple aesthetic desires for neat technology. If all these reference levels were already being matched perfectly by actual perceptions, iPhones would not be purchased or wanted. So obtaining an iPhone is a means of satisfying some unsatisfied higher-level goal. The higher the loop gain at the upper level, the more effort a person would produce (the more the person would be willing to pay or work) to get one.

One hypothesis that is often mentioned is that there is always a shortage of what people want, so there is no limit to how much they will want to acquire or enjoy. This same situation can be induced in rats by causing lesions in the hypothalamus which prevent the fullness or taste signals that result from eating from reaching the control systems for eating. The result is a grossly obese rat who will eat everything offered and work for it if necessary until it dies. No matter how much it eats, it is always hungry.

Normal rats eat only a specific amount each day, the amount needed to create and then maintain a specific body weight. If food is arbitrarily added to the rat's intake (via a gastric tube), the rat will reduce its rate of food-producing behavior and keep its weight from increasing. Removing food will result in more behavior. This is normal behavior for a control system.

It is often said that goals become less attractive and even repulsive once they are achieved. That, too, is normal behavior for a control system. The conclusion suggested by all these observations is that a person who always and acutely needs more or better things has a defect in some control system so errors are never brought down to a sustainable level. Of course in a normal system there is always a gradual reorganization going on to reduce the total error in the hierarchy as a whole, so some degree of continuing effort to reduce error is to be expected. But a person whose desire for more continues as if nothing can ever satisfy it no matter how much is acquired or consumed is in a pathological state, a state of psychological obesity just as harmful as what we see increasingly in people who have this same problem with food. Great wealth, for example, is probably a type of psychological obesity, though of course it could simply be inherited money or resources.

However, we need data behind these conjectures, and models can certainly include a provision for having some people or even all people behave in any way one wants to assume. People do often act as if they can't get enough, and one hesitates to say that every one is crazy but thee and me, and sometimes I wonders about thee. But insatiable desires don't sound to me like a healthy state of affairs, so I'd like to see the matter cleared up -- but not by just assuming things without testing.

Best,

Bill P.

···

Best,

Bill P.

Best
Adam

[From Adam Matic 2011.05.28 0050 gmt+1]

MODERATOR: When you speak of fulfilling needs, are you referring to
correcting some error?

AM:
Yes.

M: If so, this relates to the previous unanswered
question. Before you sense the need there is little error of that kind;
after the error appears, you take action to reduce the error; after the
error is reduced, are you better off than you were before the error appeared
in the first place?

AM:
Yes.

M: Whatever action is taken, it restores the needy state to the former state,
whatever it was. The question posed by Moderator above was about how many
people have a goal of not just correcting error, but of ending up with more
of something -- money or goods -- than they started with. And for those who
do, what error is corrected by doing that?

AM:
Perhaps only more free time could be a common goal that everyone wants
to have more than before. Not that every single human really wants
more free time, but that might be a useful simplification. If there is
a fixed number of needs an agent has, and in the beginning he can't
even correct all the errors, then "more free time" might be an
ultimate goal.
It could be achieved by reorganizing the amounts off goods to be
produced, bought or sold.
So, in the beginning, an agent produces what he needs, but when he
consumes it, there is not enough to fulfill the need. There is also an
error in "free time". Reorganization begins and some goods are
produced in excess and offered in the market, some are bought from the
market.
If, after they are consumed, there is less error than before,
reorganization continues.

M: "how many people would have a goal of ending up with more of something ..."

AM: I don't know how to answer this question directly. No one would
have a goal like that initially, but an effect of reorganization might
be to increase the reference levels, so a lot of them could end up
having a goal to have more than they had before.

M: Finally, is there only one human nature, so we all seek the same things in
the same way?

AM:
No, I guess not. Still, perhaps some simplifications could be made. A
limited number of things to seek and a limited number of means to get
them.

I appreciate the effort in asking questions and clarifying things.
Some things are more clear, but I'm way more confused about some other
things (both clarity and confusion seem like a good thing, though).

Best
Adam