Old post from Mary

[From Bill Powers (2005.07.03.1133 MDT)]

Found this while looking for something else. It’s from July 31,
1991.

Best,

Bill P.

···

=============================================================================

(from Mary Powers)

A couple of comments on posts this past week:

Cat vocabulary is a little more sophisticated than "I have an

error signal, help me!" Ours says “miaow” when he wants to
come

in or go out, “MIAOW,MIAOW,MIAOUW” when he’s really pissed
off

(as when I came home part way through the meeting to feed him,

and he’d been shut up in the house for 2 days) and � here’s the

kicker � “miaow�miaow, miaow�miaow” if, and only if, he wants
to

drink running water out of the tap in the bathroom sink.

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I’m wondering how old that data is on lower class New Yorkers

speaking in the accents of upper class New Yorkers of a previous

era. As a teenager in New York in the 40’s I did hear what was

then called Brooklynese: “Toid Avenue and Toity�toid Street”
and

it was indeed the same as my upper class grandfather (1868�1950)

who said “soitainly”, etc., but if this had continued to be
the

case New Yorkers now would sound something like Margaret DuMont

in the Marx Brothers movies.

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Bruce Nevin (9108.22)

We turn up the gain on explicitness and syntactic correctness

when normal interpersonal feedback processes do not suffice to

assure us of successful control of these two sorts of

perceptions of communication. Writing is one example of this,

and this in my opinion is the reason for the differences between

literary and spoken styles.

At first I thought “neat”, and then I thought “no”.
This might

apply to an easy and informal style like Dick Francis’ �

certainly more explicit and correct than spoken language, but

something you can listen to. But I defy anyone to get much out of

being read to aloud out of Gerald Edelman’s Neural Darwinism,

which has the density of lead. Some writing is written to be

heard, and some is written to be read, and there is quite a

difference. Probably because writing is less bound by temporal

sequence � you can say “huh?” and read that paragraph again �
and

see the semicolons, and skip the subordinate clauses, and unpack

the meaning. The difference between writing and speech is not

entirely along a continuum of explicitness and correctness, but

at some point is qualitative.

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Martin Taylor and Oded Maler

It’s interesting to hear (see) the howls of protest over the idea

that society exists only in the minds of individuals. A rather

large disturbance to a rather precious reference signal,�j�

apparently. Almost as offensive as the idea of controlling

perceptions instead of commanding outputs. The question is, where

are the social control systems? Control systems exist in cells,

and in the collection of cells we call individuals, and in cells

and individuals we can specify chemical and neural mechanisms

that perform control functions. But while in a society certain

individuals may be construed as having certain control functions

(input, comparing, specifying standards, acting), the

consequences of such “functions” are communicated to other

individuals only as perceptions, not as signals from one function

to another as in an actual control system.

Are there phenomena that cannot be explained assuming only

individual hierarchical control systems? What are they?

The idea that social control does not exist is simply that it

isn’t floating there between people. It does exist, in reference

levels, in individuals, where it is constructed during learning

and growing up. The people who have not incorporated the rules of

their society into their control hierarchy are called children

(as in the Kmer Rouge example) or sociopaths.

Sometimes people who reject a certain form of social control find

enough like�minded people that they can take the risk of

challenging those who are believed to have power over them. They

may be crushed by overwhelming physical force, as in China two

years ago, or they may succeed, as in the USSR � because in

Russia, unlike China, the individuals who were supposed to use

the overwhelming physical force had reference levels about

killing their own people that were more important to them than

fear of the consequences of failing to obey orders.

===========================================================

Re: Old post from Mary
[Martin Taylor 2005.07.03.15.15]

[From Bill Powers (2005.07.03.1133
MDT)]

Found this while looking for something else. It’s from July 31,
1991.

Best,

Bill P.

It’s nice to keep Mary’s thoughts alive, but a little unfair, as
she can’t comment on the resulting discussion.

Nevertheless, it’s interesting to juxtapose this:

Martin Taylor
and Oded Maler

It’s interesting to hear (see) the howls of protest over the idea

that society exists only in the minds of individuals. A rather

large disturbance to a rather precious reference signal,ÜjÜ

apparently. Almost as offensive as the idea of controlling

perceptions instead of commanding outputs. The question is, where

are the social control systems? Control systems exist in cells,

and in the collection of cells we call individuals, and in cells

and individuals we can specify chemical and neural mechanisms

that perform control functions. But while in a society certain

individuals may be construed as having certain control functions

(input, comparing, specifying standards, acting), the

consequences of such “functions” are communicated to
other

individuals only as perceptions, not as signals from one function

to another as in an actual control system.

Are there phenomena that cannot be explained assuming only

individual hierarchical control systems? What are they?

The idea that social control does not exist is simply that it

isn’t floating there between people. It does exist, in reference

levels, in individuals, where it is constructed during learning

and growing up. The people who have not incorporated the rules of

their society into their control hierarchy are called children

(as in the Kmer Rouge example) or sociopaths.

Sometimes people who reject a certain form of social control find

enough like©minded people that they can take the risk of

challenging those who are believed to have power over them. They

may be crushed by overwhelming physical force, as in China two

years ago, or they may succeed, as in the USSR © because in

Russia, unlike China, the individuals who were supposed to use

the overwhelming physical force had reference levels about

killing their own people that were more important to them than

fear of the consequences of failing to obey orders.

===========================================================

and this:

[From Bill Powers (2005.06.22.0151
MDT)]

Bjorn Simonsen (2005.06.21,16:00 EST)

Our nervous system doesn’t know anything,
it just functions.

E.G. The brain functions because
particular transmitters conduces to the
“transport” of neural signals.
Acetylcholine is the prototype of many
diverse chemical substances that can be
released from diverse nerves and
neurons in the brain as the all-important
link in the signaling process.

That is like saying that a radio
functions by electrons and holes moving through transistor, resistors,
and capacitors, so the radio doesn’t produce any music. Reductionism
explains nothing, because there are different laws of nature that come
into play at different levels of organization. You could organize
acetycholine and all the other neurotransmitters differently and end
up with a nonfunctioning brain, just as you could wire up transistors,
resistors, and so on at random and end up with a nonsense device that
did nothing useful. What makes the brain work as it does is the
organization of its parts, not the parts themselves.

I say that our nervous system knows
everything there is to know, because that is one of the things it is
organized to do.

Best,

Bill P.

Martin

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2005.07.10,09:45 EST)]

Martin Taylor 2005.07.03.15.15

Well come back from Crieff Hills to all of you who were there.

Nevertheless, it’s interesting to juxtapose this:

Martin Taylor and Oded Maler

It’s interesting to hear (see) the howls of
protest over the idea

that society exists only in the minds of individuals. A rather

large disturbance to a rather precious reference signal,ÜjÜ

apparently. Almost as offensive as the idea of controlling

perceptions instead of commanding outputs. The question is, where

are the social control systems? Control systems exist in cells,

and in the collection of cells we call individuals, and in cells

and individuals we can specify chemical and neural mechanisms

that perform control functions. But while in a society certain

individuals may be construed as having certain control functions

(input, comparing, specifying standards, acting), the

consequences of such “functions” are communicated to other

individuals only as perceptions, not as signals from one function

to another as in an actual control system.

Are there phenomena that cannot be explained assuming only

individual hierarchical control systems? What are they?

The idea that social control does not exist is simply that it

isn’t floating there between people. It does exist, in reference

levels, in individuals, where it is constructed during learning

and growing up. The people who have not incorporated the rules of

their society into their control hierarchy are called children

(as in the Kmer Rouge example) or sociopaths.

Sometimes people who reject a certain form of social control find

enough like©minded people that they can take the risk of

challenging those who are believed to have power over them. They

may be crushed by overwhelming physical force, as in China two

years ago, or they may succeed, as in the USSR © because in

Russia, unlike China, the individuals who were supposed to use

the overwhelming physical force had reference levels about

killing their own people that were more important to them than

fear of the consequences of failing to obey orders.

and this:

[From Bill Powers (2005.06.22.0151 MDT)]

Bjorn Simonsen
(2005.06.21,16:00 EST) –

Our nervous system doesn’t know
anything, it just functions.

E.G. The brain functions because
particular transmitters conduces to the

“transport” of neural
signals. Acetylcholine is the prototype of many

diverse chemical substances that can
be released from diverse nerves and

neurons in the brain as the
all-important link in the signaling process.

That is like saying that a radio
functions by electrons and holes moving through >transistor, resistors, and
capacitors, so the radio doesn’t produce any music. >Reductionism explains
nothing, because there are different laws of nature that come into >play at
different levels of organization. You could organize acetycholine and all the

other neurotransmitters differently and end up with a nonfunctioning brain,
just as you >could wire up transistors, resistors, and so on at random and
end up with a nonsense >device that did nothing useful. What makes the brain
work as it does is the organization >of its parts, not the parts themselves.

I say that our nervous system knows
everything there is to know, because that is one of >the things it is
organized to do.

I have tried to see the juxtaposition, but I am not wise enough.

I was going to comment Bill’s statement, but “something happened” and I
forgot it. Let me comment it now.

First, I appreciated Mary’s article. That is the way also I understand we
exchange ideas between people.

Back to my:

Our nervous system doesn’t know
anything, it just functions.

More concrete what I meant to say was: Of
course one part of our nervous system knows the perceptions we control. Our consciousness tells us some of these
perceptions.

And of course I agree when Bill say:

What makes the brain work as it does is the organization

of its parts, not the parts themselves.

For me the two statements say the same.

PCT is a model/theory of the way the brain works. Neurologists have
other models and some times I think it is interesting to juxtapose them.

I myself am enthusiastic when I read other
scientists explain how they think their models are working and it at the same
time support PCT.

bjorn