philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
Ed Heidicker 5:29 pm PT 5/2/18
I once heard the story from a cyberneticist about a workman who was told to make sure that a temperature gauge didn’t go beyond a certain point. Later in the day there was an explosion in the factory. They found out that the worker had put a nail into the gauge to prevent the needle from exceeding a certain point!!
My understanding is that a rheostat does nothing to control the source of the signal it is monitoring. It cannot control all the variables that may contribute to an increase in the temperature of, let’s say, a room that is heating up because of an open door or open windows. All it can do is to bring the temperature of the area to the referent. If the control system is somehow not ‘receiving’ or preventing it from appearing then I would suggest that the system is malfunctioning.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:22 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
–
Ed Heidicker
828 274-5929
philip 2:39 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence is not about a malfunctioning system.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Ed Heidicker heidicker@gmail.com wrote:
Ed Heidicker 5:29 pm PT 5/2/18
I once heard the story from a cyberneticist about a workman who was told to make sure that a temperature gauge didn’t go beyond a certain point. Later in the day there was an explosion in the factory. They found out that the worker had put a nail into the gauge to prevent the needle from exceeding a certain point!!
My understanding is that a rheostat does nothing to control the source of the signal it is monitoring. It cannot control all the variables that may contribute to an increase in the temperature of, let’s say, a room that is heating up because of an open door or open windows. All it can do is to bring the temperature of the area to the referent. If the control system is somehow not ‘receiving’ or preventing it from appearing then I would suggest that the system is malfunctioning.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:22 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
Ed Heidicker
828 274-5929
–
Homeostasis
On May 2, 2018 3:41 PM, “PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN” pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 2:39 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence is not about a malfunctioning system.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Ed Heidicker heidicker@gmail.com wrote:
Ed Heidicker 5:29 pm PT 5/2/18
I once heard the story from a cyberneticist about a workman who was told to make sure that a temperature gauge didn’t go beyond a certain point. Later in the day there was an explosion in the factory. They found out that the worker had put a nail into the gauge to prevent the needle from exceeding a certain point!!
My understanding is that a rheostat does nothing to control the source of the signal it is monitoring. It cannot control all the variables that may contribute to an increase in the temperature of, let’s say, a room that is heating up because of an open door or open windows. All it can do is to bring the temperature of the area to the referent. If the control system is somehow not ‘receiving’ or preventing it from appearing then I would suggest that the system is malfunctioning.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:22 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
Ed Heidicker
828 274-5929
–
[Martin Taylor 2018.05.02.17.42]
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
There's really not much to discuss. Imagine that you are controlling your perception of where your friend is standing with respect to the Eiffel tower, and you want to take a picture of her with her finger seeming to be place on the top of the tower. You control your perception of the relationship between the finger location and the top of the tower location, If the finger is too high, you control to make it look lower, either by moving the camera or by asking your friend to lower her finger. Similarly if the finger looks too low. The perceived relationship in the first case is positive, in the second case negative. You have a reference value of zero -- there is zero distance between the fingertip and the top of the tower in your camera viewfinder. When the value of the perception is close enough to zero to satisfy you, you click the shutter. You have been "keeping the separation perceptual signal from appearing", or at a zero reference value.
That's all it means.
Powers is making the point that controlling to a zero reference value is very different from not controlling that perception.
Martin
philip 3:31 pm PT 5/2/18
Why is it written “Lack of a reference signal has precisely the meaning of a reference signal of zero”.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:
[Martin Taylor 2018.05.02.17.42]
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
There’s really not much to discuss. Imagine that you are controlling your perception of where your friend is standing with respect to the Eiffel tower, and you want to take a picture of her with her finger seeming to be place on the top of the tower. You control your perception of the relationship between the finger location and the top of the tower location, If the finger is too high, you control to make it look lower, either by moving the camera or by asking your friend to lower her finger. Similarly if the finger looks too low. The perceived relationship in the first case is positive, in the second case negative. You have a reference value of zero – there is zero distance between the fingertip and the top of the tower in your camera viewfinder. When the value of the perception is close enough to zero to satisfy you, you click the shutter. You have been “keeping the separation perceptual signal from appearing”, or at a zero reference value.
That’s all it means.
Powers is making the point that controlling to a zero reference value is very different from not controlling that perception.
Martin
[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-02_20:06:50 ET]
philip 3:31 pm PT 5/2/18 –
In the model as Bill is discussing it, these signals are rates of firing in nerves or nerve bundles. You can think that one through to your answer.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 6:36 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 3:31 pm PT 5/2/18
Why is it written “Lack of a reference signal has precisely the meaning of a reference signal of zero”.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:
[Martin Taylor 2018.05.02.17.42]
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
There’s really not much to discuss. Imagine that you are controlling your perception of where your friend is standing with respect to the Eiffel tower, and you want to take a picture of her with her finger seeming to be place on the top of the tower. You control your perception of the relationship between the finger location and the top of the tower location, If the finger is too high, you control to make it look lower, either by moving the camera or by asking your friend to lower her finger. Similarly if the finger looks too low. The perceived relationship in the first case is positive, in the second case negative. You have a reference value of zero – there is zero distance between the fingertip and the top of the tower in your camera viewfinder. When the value of the perception is close enough to zero to satisfy you, you click the shutter. You have been “keeping the separation perceptual signal from appearing”, or at a zero reference value.
That’s all it means.
Powers is making the point that controlling to a zero reference value is very different from not controlling that perception.
Martin
[Martin Taylor 2018.05.02.23.08]
[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-02_20:06:50 ET]
philip 3:31 pm
PT 5/2/18 –
In the model as Bill is discussing it, these signals arerates of firing in nerves or nerve bundles. You can think that
one through to your answer.
I agree with Bruce. But to forestall a likely follow-up question
about how this can be squared with the concept of positive and
negative values for perceptions, reference values, and errors
values, these are dealt with by treating negative values separately
from positive ones so that negativity is represented by which signal
path is more active rather than by an impossible negative firing
rate. The end result is actions in opposite directions for positive
and negative output values.
Martin
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 6:36 PM, PHILIP
JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu
wrote:
philip3:31 pm PT 5/2/18
Why is it written "Lack of a reference signal hasprecisely the meaning of a reference signal of zero".
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:56
PM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
wrote:
[MartinTaylor 2018.05.02.17.42]
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention: A zero reference signal means only that thecontrol system will act so as to prevent the
corresponding perceptual signal from
appearing, and that in turn means holding
constant some objective (even if abstract)
condition in the physical world.Can someone please discuss this.
There's really not much to discuss. Imagine thatyou are controlling your perception of where your
friend is standing with respect to the Eiffel
tower, and you want to take a picture of her with
her finger seeming to be place on the top of the
tower. You control your perception of the
relationship between the finger location and the
top of the tower location, If the finger is too
high, you control to make it look lower, either by
moving the camera or by asking your friend to
lower her finger. Similarly if the finger looks
too low. The perceived relationship in the first
case is positive, in the second case negative. You
have a reference value of zero – there is zero
distance between the fingertip and the top of the
tower in your camera viewfinder. When the value of
the perception is close enough to zero to satisfy
you, you click the shutter. You have been “keeping
the separation perceptual signal from appearing”,
or at a zero reference value.That's all it means. Powers is making the point that controlling to azero reference value is very different from not
controlling that perception.Martin
[Eetu Pikkarainen 2018-05-03_06:40:11 UTC]
I would like to add what helped me to understand this ( - hopefully right, and if so it is due to Martin). Let’s think about a simple control system, an organism, for
which it is important to maintain the stable temperature say 10 degrees. This is a stable and highest reference for it. So according to canonical PCT diagram there should be a reference signal which is constantly sending to the comparator a certain neural
current the value (strength) of which would correspond to the perceptual value of the perception of 10 degree temperature. But if that perception and reference is the highest in the hierarchy then where could that reference signal come from? The highest level
perceptions do not (by definition) have reference signals. And “Lack of a reference signal has precisely the meaning of a reference signal of zero”. This means that the value of the perceptual signal coming to the comparator should
also be zero if the temperature is 10 degrees.
Perceptual value is generated by a perceptual function. This kind of organism must have developed by reorganization or by evolution such perceptual function which gives zero strength signal when perceived temperature
is 10 degrees. Because neural signals cannot have negative values that organism must have (at least) two temperature control systems, one for temperatures below and one for temperatures above 10 degrees. The question of negative values of signals was discussed
in last August. You can search for example messages [Eetu Pikkarainen 2017-08-21] and [Martin Taylor 2017.08.21.18.00].
Because firing of the neurons require energy and produce heat it seems plausible that most of our average references would be zero?
Eetu
Please, regard all my statements as questions,
no matter how they are formulated.
From: Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 6:16 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: page 76 B:COP (2005)
[Martin Taylor 2018.05.02.23.08]
[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-02_20:06:50 ET]
philip 3:31 pm PT 5/2/18 –
In the model as Bill is discussing it, these signals are rates of firing in nerves or nerve bundles. You can think that one through to your answer.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 6:36 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 3:31 pm PT 5/2/18
Why is it written “Lack of a reference signal has precisely the meaning of a reference signal of zero”.
I agree with Bruce. But to forestall a likely follow-up question about how this can be squared with the concept of positive and negative values for perceptions, reference values, and errors values, these are dealt with by treating negative values separately
from positive ones so that negativity is represented by which signal path is more active rather than by an impossible negative firing rate. The end result is actions in opposite directions for positive and negative output values.
Martin
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:
[Martin Taylor 2018.05.02.17.42]
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
There’s really not much to discuss. Imagine that you are controlling your perception of where your friend is standing with respect to the Eiffel tower, and you want to take a picture of her with her finger seeming
to be place on the top of the tower. You control your perception of the relationship between the finger location and the top of the tower location, If the finger is too high, you control to make it look lower, either by moving the camera or by asking your
friend to lower her finger. Similarly if the finger looks too low. The perceived relationship in the first case is positive, in the second case negative. You have a reference value of zero – there is zero distance between the fingertip and the top of the
tower in your camera viewfinder. When the value of the perception is close enough to zero to satisfy you, you click the shutter. You have been “keeping the separation perceptual signal from appearing”, or at a zero reference value.That’s all it means.
Powers is making the point that controlling to a zero reference value is very different from not controlling that perception.
Martin
Philip,
Sorry I’m a little late, but Ricks “behavioristic festival” took me too much time.
From: PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 12:36 AM
To: csgnet csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: page 76 B:COP (2005)
philip 3:31 pm PT 5/2/18
Why is it written “Lack of a reference signal has precisely the meaning of a reference signal of zero”.
HB : I’ve tried to explain these phenomenon already to Bruce A. I think we have to understand how nervous system function. There are two possible states of neural signal 1 or 0. It’s all or nothing Law. Reference neural signal zero means that there is no signal or lack of reference signal. I assume that longer lack of reference signal means death. Alison by my oppinion gave right answer by pointing out to homeostasis. See my answer there.
Best,
Boris
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:
[Martin Taylor 2018.05.02.17.42]
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
There’s really not much to discuss. Imagine that you are controlling your perception of where your friend is standing with respect to the Eiffel tower, and you want to take a picture of her with her finger seeming to be place on the top of the tower. You control your perception of the relationship between the finger location and the top of the tower location, If the finger is too high, you control to make it look lower, either by moving the camera or by asking your friend to lower her finger. Similarly if the finger looks too low. The perceived relationship in the first case is positive, in the second case negative. You have a reference value of zero – there is zero distance between the fingertip and the top of the tower in your camera viewfinder. When the value of the perception is close enough to zero to satisfy you, you click the shutter. You have been “keeping the separation perceptual signal from appearing”, or at a zero reference value.
That’s all it means.
Powers is making the point that controlling to a zero reference value is very different from not controlling that perception.
Martin
Alison,
I think you opened quite difficult question. But I generally agree with you.
AP : homestasis
HB : I’d say that “homeostasis” is state near equilibrium in organism which by my oppinion means death. And this by my oppinion means “reference signal zero”. Homeostasis means the similar state. Homeostasis means in physiological language “almost constant conditions” in organisms which are kept by “control mechanisms”. If organism reaches constant conditions that by my oppinion means that control mechanisms are not working any more, as they can’t provide “almost constant conditions” which are maintained in organism by counteracting disturbances which are going on continuously. . When there is no processes that tend to keep almost “constant conditions”, I’d say that organism falls into equilibrium (death). Control systems for keeping “almost constant conditions” are not working any more.
Bill P (p.76, B:CP, 2005) :
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Bill P : “Lack of a reference signal has precisely the meaning of a reference signal of zero”.
HB : I think if “reference signal” zero is preventing “corresponding perceptual signal” to occur, and hold constant conditions in objective world by my oppinion means that “reference signal zero” can not produce “error” signal and that also means that organism is not capable of acting on environment. I would say that it’s not functioning any more. It’s dead. It is in state of “perfect equilibrium”, maybe something similar to “heat death” of Universe. Maybe we can say this is state of natural “mulfunctioning” of organisms which at some point don’t survive any more and dead organism means consequently as mulfunctioning. Anyway. Organism is not functioning any more. It’s not controlling so it’s not alive. Its’ not producing references for essential variables.
Living Control Systems were formed through evolution in circumstances full of disturbances which don’t allow organisms to reach “constant conditions” or “equilibrium” although the tendency of processes in organism are all the time in that direction. Something is preventing biochemical balance to achieve it’s final (constant) state. That’s seems tha way how organisms survive.
Ashby thought that concept of “survival” is of most importance. That an animal should remain “alive” certain variables must remain inside certain physiological limits.
Ashby pointed out the difference between dead and alive horse in maintaining “essential variable” in phisiological limits, what probably represents “almost constant conditions”. Dead horse is not maintainng almost constant conditions but is in state of constant conditions (essential variables out of physiological limits in perfect temperature balance with environment).
Obviously organisms have developed so many control subsystems that they can counteract all disturbances that tend to “displace essential variables” from “physiologocal limits”. That’s Ashby’s “Law of Requisit Variety” about. Control systems work in synchronised way or as Ashby pointed out they are linked dynamically. If some important control subsystem fails we can expect the chain of failing all control subsystems in organism.
He wrote : “Every species has a number of variables which are closely related to survival and which are closely linked dynamically so that marked changes in in any one leads sooner or later to marked changes in the others. Thus if we find a rat that the pulse rate has droped to zero, we can predict that respiration rate will soon become zero, that the body temperature will soon fall to room temparature and that the number of bacteria in the tissues will soon rise from almost zero to very high number” (Ashby 1960).
Thus “survival” occurs when control systems takes no essential variables outside given limits. A variety of disturbances will therefore avoke a variety of matched counteractions if there are enough control systems to prevent “essential variables” to be displaced from physiological limits. We can present this as “goal-seeking” mechanisms in which we can place also “adaptive” behaviour. Ashby’s definition of behavior is : “The form of behaviour is adaptive if it maintains the essential variables within physiological limits”. But homeostatic mechanisms extend from those that wholly within organism to thise that involve widest-ranging activities.
I just wanted to point out that concept of homeostasis is very close to “keeping essential variables” in physiological limits or “survival” or organisms being “alive”. I hope that Alison meant that when she pointed to homeostasis which is closely connected to control systems in organisms, production of reference values and functioning of control units and the LCS in whole. And I think that genetic reference values which are “moving” control systems for keeping “essential variables” in limits, are important for understanding why their value zero means by my oppinion death.
Best,
Boris
From: Alison Powers controlsystemsgroupconference@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 11:56 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: page 76 B:COP (2005)
Homeostasis
On May 2, 2018 3:41 PM, “PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN” pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 2:39 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence is not about a malfunctioning system.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Ed Heidicker heidicker@gmail.com wrote:
Ed Heidicker 5:29 pm PT 5/2/18
I once heard the story from a cyberneticist about a workman who was told to make sure that a temperature gauge didn’t go beyond a certain point. Later in the day there was an explosion in the factory. They found out that the worker had put a nail into the gauge to prevent the needle from exceeding a certain point!!
My understanding is that a rheostat does nothing to control the source of the signal it is monitoring. It cannot control all the variables that may contribute to an increase in the temperature of, let’s say, a room that is heating up because of an open door or open windows. All it can do is to bring the temperature of the area to the referent. If the control system is somehow not ‘receiving’ or preventing it from appearing then I would suggest that the system is malfunctioning.
On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:22 PM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:
philip 2:18 pm PT 5/2/18
This sentence caught my attention:
A zero reference signal means only that the control system will act so as to prevent the corresponding perceptual signal from appearing, and that in turn means holding constant some objective (even if abstract) condition in the physical world.
Can someone please discuss this.
–
Ed Heidicker
828 274-5929