PCT: Analog or Digital?

[From Fred Nickols (2013.12.24.0846 EST)]

I got involved in a discussion on the Systems Thinking list on LinkedIn. They’re out to save the world and I asserted that when they reached the point of action PCT might come into play. I thought CSG list members might find the following exchanges interesting. Here’s the thread:

begin thread

Fred Nickols, CPT

At the root of this discussion lies human behavior. Ultimately, through whatever means and using whatever models, action is required. People are “living control systems.” They act to align what they see with what they want to see. Technically speaking, they act to control their perceptions. Missing from the theories and models mentioned thus far is William T Powers’ Perceptual Control Theory (PCT). PCT is a closed-loop, negative feedback governed view of human behavior. It or something like it will prove essential to effective action. It is a truly systems view of human behavior.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

Actually PCT is a rather reductionist view of human perceptual limits. Its the psychological parallel to how we use a digital perspective to clean up what is messy electronically, losing the nuance of the analog universe. My point is, it is a functional tool for psychotherapy, but much more then that, it is like all theories in the soft science of psychology, it is a best fit, a digital view of the human mind, looking to surface causes and affects, to grope in the darkness of our need to deal imperfectly to the problems that face us.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not deigning its usefulness, just not the validation of it as a systems thinking tool, or any tool where we are looking at patterns of human consciousness.

Just some thoughts…have a nice holiday…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Actually, PCT is an analog not a digital view. Have a nice holiday.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

I suppose I would have to disagree, as I was using digital more as a metaphor for the array like ways we like to conform our data into easy, usable bits to study. By definition analog is the infinite nature of that gestalt of reality we choose to study or use in our technology. Digital is by definition, that process of cleaning the world up, in a Newtonian process, that brings those bits of reality we wish to study or use, into focus.

If you see PCT as a systems view, I can understand why you think of it as analog, I just disagree that PCT is a systems view in any way.

Just a point I suppose to agree to disagree on…hope your holiday goes well also…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Hmm. It seems we have very different understandings of PCT and analog vs digital. Analog is continuous and digital is discrete. Human behavior is very much a continuous, dynamic phenomenon; it is analog, not digital. However, this list is not the place for us to clarify PCT or analog or digital so I will go along with your notion that we agree to disagree.

Have a nice (analog) holiday

end of thread

Regards,

Fred Nickols, CPT

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Again, why do people who don’t know PCT have these strong (incorrect) views about what it is? It makes it so much harder to explain things to them!

···

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013, Fred Nickols wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2013.12.24.0846 EST)]

I got involved in a discussion on the Systems Thinking list on LinkedIn. They’re out to save the world and I asserted that when they reached the point of action PCT might come into play. I thought CSG list members might find the following exchanges interesting. Here’s the thread:

begin thread

Fred Nickols, CPT

At the root of this discussion lies human behavior. Ultimately, through whatever means and using whatever models, action is required. People are “living control systems.” They act to align what they see with what they want to see. Technically speaking, they act to control their perceptions. Missing from the theories and models mentioned thus far is William T Powers’ Perceptual Control Theory (PCT). PCT is a closed-loop, negative feedback governed view of human behavior. It or something like it will prove essential to effective action. It is a truly systems view of human behavior.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

Actually PCT is a rather reductionist view of human perceptual limits. Its the psychological parallel to how we use a digital perspective to clean up what is messy electronically, losing the nuance of the analog universe. My point is, it is a functional tool for psychotherapy, but much more then that, it is like all theories in the soft science of psychology, it is a best fit, a digital view of the human mind, looking to surface causes and affects, to grope in the darkness of our need to deal imperfectly to the problems that face us.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not deigning its usefulness, just not the validation of it as a systems thinking tool, or any tool where we are looking at patterns of human consciousness.

Just some thoughts…have a nice holiday…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Actually, PCT is an analog not a digital view. Have a nice holiday.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

I suppose I would have to disagree, as I was using digital more as a metaphor for the array like ways we like to conform our data into easy, usable bits to study. By definition analog is the infinite nature of that gestalt of reality we choose to study or use in our technology. Digital is by definition, that process of cleaning the world up, in a Newtonian process, that brings those bits of reality we wish to study or use, into focus.

If you see PCT as a systems view, I can understand why you think of it as analog, I just disagree that PCT is a systems view in any way.

Just a point I suppose to agree to disagree on…hope your holiday goes well also…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Hmm. It seems we have very different understandings of PCT and analog vs digital. Analog is continuous and digital is discrete. Human behavior is very much a continuous, dynamic phenomenon; it is analog, not digital. However, this list is not the place for us to clarify PCT or analog or digital so I will go along with your notion that we agree to disagree.

Have a nice (analog) holiday

end of thread

Regards,

Fred Nickols, CPT

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room


Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Psychology
Cognitive Behavioural Therapist & Chartered Clinical Psychologist

School of Psychological Sciences
Coupland I
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

See teamstrial.net for further information on our trial of CBT for Bipolar Disorders in NW England

The highly acclaimed therapy manual on A Transdiagnostic Approach to CBT using Method of Levels is available now.

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

[From Rick Marken (2013.12.24.1720)]

···

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

WM: Again, why do people who don’t know PCT have these strong (incorrect) views about what it is? It makes it so much harder to explain things to them!

RM: Part of the fun of PCT for me has has been trying to answer this question. I think someone should write a paper about this. Collect as many incorrect views about PCT as possible and try to figure out why people have them. My experience is that these incorrect views exist in people who do seem to have some knowledge of PCT as well as in people who don’t. I think I could give a good start to such a paper in the form of a list of some of the incorrect views people have expressed about PCT (in reviews, net discussions as well as in published papers). Would you like to write it, Warren?

Best

Rick

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013, Fred Nickols wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2013.12.24.0846 EST)]

I got involved in a discussion on the Systems Thinking list on LinkedIn. They’re out to save the world and I asserted that when they reached the point of action PCT might come into play. I thought CSG list members might find the following exchanges interesting. Here’s the thread:

begin thread

Fred Nickols, CPT

At the root of this discussion lies human behavior. Ultimately, through whatever means and using whatever models, action is required. People are “living control systems.” They act to align what they see with what they want to see. Technically speaking, they act to control their perceptions. Missing from the theories and models mentioned thus far is William T Powers’ Perceptual Control Theory (PCT). PCT is a closed-loop, negative feedback governed view of human behavior. It or something like it will prove essential to effective action. It is a truly systems view of human behavior.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

Actually PCT is a rather reductionist view of human perceptual limits. Its the psychological parallel to how we use a digital perspective to clean up what is messy electronically, losing the nuance of the analog universe. My point is, it is a functional tool for psychotherapy, but much more then that, it is like all theories in the soft science of psychology, it is a best fit, a digital view of the human mind, looking to surface causes and affects, to grope in the darkness of our need to deal imperfectly to the problems that face us.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not deigning its usefulness, just not the validation of it as a systems thinking tool, or any tool where we are looking at patterns of human consciousness.

Just some thoughts…have a nice holiday…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Actually, PCT is an analog not a digital view. Have a nice holiday.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

I suppose I would have to disagree, as I was using digital more as a metaphor for the array like ways we like to conform our data into easy, usable bits to study. By definition analog is the infinite nature of that gestalt of reality we choose to study or use in our technology. Digital is by definition, that process of cleaning the world up, in a Newtonian process, that brings those bits of reality we wish to study or use, into focus.

If you see PCT as a systems view, I can understand why you think of it as analog, I just disagree that PCT is a systems view in any way.

Just a point I suppose to agree to disagree on…hope your holiday goes well also…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Hmm. It seems we have very different understandings of PCT and analog vs digital. Analog is continuous and digital is discrete. Human behavior is very much a continuous, dynamic phenomenon; it is analog, not digital. However, this list is not the place for us to clarify PCT or analog or digital so I will go along with your notion that we agree to disagree.

Have a nice (analog) holiday

end of thread

Regards,

Fred Nickols, CPT

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room


Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Psychology
Cognitive Behavioural Therapist & Chartered Clinical Psychologist

School of Psychological Sciences
Coupland I
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

See teamstrial.net for further information on our trial of CBT for Bipolar Disorders in NW England

The highly acclaimed therapy manual on A Transdiagnostic Approach to CBT using Method of Levels is available now.

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory


Richard S. Marken PhD
www.mindreadings.com
The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.

                                               -- Bertrand Russell

Yep, it could work quite well in my chapter for the edited book, great!

···

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

WM: Again, why do people who don’t know PCT have these strong (incorrect) views about what it is? It makes it so much harder to explain things to them!

RM: Part of the fun of PCT for me has has been trying to answer this question. I think someone should write a paper about this. Collect as many incorrect views about PCT as possible and try to figure out why people have them. My experience is that these incorrect views exist in people who do seem to have some knowledge of PCT as well as in people who don’t. I think I could give a good start to such a paper in the form of a list of some of the incorrect views people have expressed about PCT (in reviews, net discussions as well as in published papers). Would you like to write it, Warren?

Best

Rick

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013, Fred Nickols wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2013.12.24.0846 EST)]

I got involved in a discussion on the Systems Thinking list on LinkedIn. They’re out to save the world and I asserted that when they reached the point of action PCT might come into play. I thought CSG list members might find the following exchanges interesting. Here’s the thread:

begin thread

Fred Nickols, CPT

At the root of this discussion lies human behavior. Ultimately, through whatever means and using whatever models, action is required. People are “living control systems.” They act to align what they see with what they want to see. Technically speaking, they act to control their perceptions. Missing from the theories and models mentioned thus far is William T Powers’ Perceptual Control Theory (PCT). PCT is a closed-loop, negative feedback governed view of human behavior. It or something like it will prove essential to effective action. It is a truly systems view of human behavior.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

Actually PCT is a rather reductionist view of human perceptual limits. Its the psychological parallel to how we use a digital perspective to clean up what is messy electronically, losing the nuance of the analog universe. My point is, it is a functional tool for psychotherapy, but much more then that, it is like all theories in the soft science of psychology, it is a best fit, a digital view of the human mind, looking to surface causes and affects, to grope in the darkness of our need to deal imperfectly to the problems that face us.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not deigning its usefulness, just not the validation of it as a systems thinking tool, or any tool where we are looking at patterns of human consciousness.

Just some thoughts…have a nice holiday…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Actually, PCT is an analog not a digital view. Have a nice holiday.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

I suppose I would have to disagree, as I was using digital more as a metaphor for the array like ways we like to conform our data into easy, usable bits to study. By definition analog is the infinite nature of that gestalt of reality we choose to study or use in our technology. Digital is by definition, that process of cleaning the world up, in a Newtonian process, that brings those bits of reality we wish to study or use, into focus.

If you see PCT as a systems view, I can understand why you think of it as analog, I just disagree that PCT is a systems view in any way.

Just a point I suppose to agree to disagree on…hope your holiday goes well also…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Hmm. It seems we have very different understandings of PCT and analog vs digital. Analog is continuous and digital is discrete. Human behavior is very much a continuous, dynamic phenomenon; it is analog, not digital. However, this list is not the place for us to clarify PCT or analog or digital so I will go along with your notion that we agree to disagree.

Have a nice (analog) holiday

end of thread

Regards,

Fred Nickols, CPT

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room


Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Psychology
Cognitive Behavioural Therapist & Chartered Clinical Psychologist

School of Psychological Sciences
Coupland I
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

See teamstrial.net for further information on our trial of CBT for Bipolar Disorders in NW England

The highly acclaimed therapy manual on A Transdiagnostic Approach to CBT using Method of Levels is available now.

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory


Richard S. Marken PhD
www.mindreadings.com
The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.

                                               -- Bertrand Russell

[From Fred Nickols (2013.12.25.0824 EST)]

I agree and here are two for starters.

First, people persist in their notion that what is being controlled is behavior – instead of the other way around.

Second, many PCTers insist that we don’t control behavior. If I take a sip of coffee and the perception I’m controlling is cup against lips, tilted, etc., isn’t that good old PCT hierarchy controlling limb movement somewhere in there?

I think what gets confused at times is purpose and the target of control.

Anyway, just some passing thoughts on Christmas morning.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year (or other such felicitous comment depending on your personal persuasion)

Fred Nickols

···

From: Warren Mansell [mailto:wmansell@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 6:50 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: PCT: Analog or Digital?

Yep, it could work quite well in my chapter for the edited book, great!

Sent from my iPhone

On 25 Dec 2013, at 01:21, Richard Marken rsmarken@GMAIL.COM wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2013.12.24.1720)]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

WM: Again, why do people who don’t know PCT have these strong (incorrect) views about what it is? It makes it so much harder to explain things to them!

RM: Part of the fun of PCT for me has has been trying to answer this question. I think someone should write a paper about this. Collect as many incorrect views about PCT as possible and try to figure out why people have them. My experience is that these incorrect views exist in people who do seem to have some knowledge of PCT as well as in people who don’t. I think I could give a good start to such a paper in the form of a list of some of the incorrect views people have expressed about PCT (in reviews, net discussions as well as in published papers). Would you like to write it, Warren?

Best

Rick

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013, Fred Nickols wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2013.12.24.0846 EST)]

I got involved in a discussion on the Systems Thinking list on LinkedIn. They’re out to save the world and I asserted that when they reached the point of action PCT might come into play. I thought CSG list members might find the following exchanges interesting. Here’s the thread:

begin thread

Fred Nickols, CPT

At the root of this discussion lies human behavior. Ultimately, through whatever means and using whatever models, action is required. People are “living control systems.” They act to align what they see with what they want to see. Technically speaking, they act to control their perceptions. Missing from the theories and models mentioned thus far is William T Powers’ Perceptual Control Theory (PCT). PCT is a closed-loop, negative feedback governed view of human behavior. It or something like it will prove essential to effective action. It is a truly systems view of human behavior.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

Actually PCT is a rather reductionist view of human perceptual limits. Its the psychological parallel to how we use a digital perspective to clean up what is messy electronically, losing the nuance of the analog universe. My point is, it is a functional tool for psychotherapy, but much more then that, it is like all theories in the soft science of psychology, it is a best fit, a digital view of the human mind, looking to surface causes and affects, to grope in the darkness of our need to deal imperfectly to the problems that face us.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not deigning its usefulness, just not the validation of it as a systems thinking tool, or any tool where we are looking at patterns of human consciousness.

Just some thoughts…have a nice holiday…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Actually, PCT is an analog not a digital view. Have a nice holiday.

lewis campbell

Research Scientist at Heather’s house foundation

I suppose I would have to disagree, as I was using digital more as a metaphor for the array like ways we like to conform our data into easy, usable bits to study. By definition analog is the infinite nature of that gestalt of reality we choose to study or use in our technology. Digital is by definition, that process of cleaning the world up, in a Newtonian process, that brings those bits of reality we wish to study or use, into focus.

If you see PCT as a systems view, I can understand why you think of it as analog, I just disagree that PCT is a systems view in any way.

Just a point I suppose to agree to disagree on…hope your holiday goes well also…

Fred Nickols, CPT

“Assistance at a Distance”

Hmm. It seems we have very different understandings of PCT and analog vs digital. Analog is continuous and digital is discrete. Human behavior is very much a continuous, dynamic phenomenon; it is analog, not digital. However, this list is not the place for us to clarify PCT or analog or digital so I will go along with your notion that we agree to disagree.

Have a nice (analog) holiday

end of thread

Regards,

Fred Nickols, CPT

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Psychology
Cognitive Behavioural Therapist & Chartered Clinical Psychologist
School of Psychological Sciences
Coupland I
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

See teamstrial.net for further information on our trial of CBT for Bipolar Disorders in NW England

The highly acclaimed therapy manual on A Transdiagnostic Approach to CBT using Method of Levels is available now.

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

Richard S. Marken PhD
www.mindreadings.com

The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.
– Bertrand Russell