PCT and language

CSGnet Archive CSG2017
1

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.06 12.00)]

  Here's an interesting New Scientist article about language. Any

suggestions on how PCT fits in here?

new sc.pdf (4.39 MB)

···

–
Regards,
Rupert

2

Don’t get me started on RFT! Oh dear… a theory in search of a different perspective (Behavior as the control of a perception) and an architecture (PCT)…

···

–
Regards,
Rupert

3

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.09.44]

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.06 12.00)]

Here's an interesting New Scientist article about language. Any suggestions on how PCT fits in here?

--

Yes, lots. The working title of the book I am working on is "Powers of Perceptual Control: A PCT enquiry into Language, Culture, Power and Politics" (pun intended). The development of linguistic skills and the evolution of languages takes somewhere between 60 and 80 single-spaced pages in the current draft, maybe more or less. It's hard to be precise, because language is so mixed up with culture and individual reorganization that allows the individual to grow up and interact effectively with other people.

I think I cover just about everything mentioned in that article, but it would be hard to extract only the language parts in a way that would make sense in a message of a length suited to e-mail, or to make an extract of precisely the relevant pages of the current book draft. The central idea was, however, covered in my CSG-93 presentation. Dag's movie of that is available at <http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/Movie/TaylorCSG1993.mp4&gt;\. The relevant part starts 19 min 15 sec into the presentation.

Martin

4

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.10.39]

I'm sorry. I should have mentioned Bruce Nevin's forthcoming chapter in LCS IV. It's up to him whether he wants to say anything about it, but I should not have omitted mentioning it in my earlier message. And Phil Runkel has a chapter on language in "People as Living Things" (2003).

Martin

···

On 2017/06/6 10:00 AM, Martin Taylor wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.09.44]

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.06 12.00)]

Here's an interesting New Scientist article about language. Any suggestions on how PCT fits in here?

--

Yes, lots. The working title of the book I am working on is "Powers of Perceptual Control: A PCT enquiry into Language, Culture, Power and Politics" (pun intended). The development of linguistic skills and the evolution of languages takes somewhere between 60 and 80 single-spaced pages in the current draft, maybe more or less. It's hard to be precise, because language is so mixed up with culture and individual reorganization that allows the individual to grow up and interact effectively with other people.

I think I cover just about everything mentioned in that article, but it would be hard to extract only the language parts in a way that would make sense in a message of a length suited to e-mail, or to make an extract of precisely the relevant pages of the current book draft. The central idea was, however, covered in my CSG-93 presentation. Dag's movie of that is available at <http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/Movie/TaylorCSG1993.mp4&gt;\. The relevant part starts 19 min 15 sec into the presentation.

Martin

5

Any chance anyone would want to try writing a letter to the editor mentioning PCT and the past and upcoming chapters and books?

···

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.10.39]

I’m sorry. I should have mentioned Bruce Nevin’s forthcoming chapter in LCS IV. It’s up to him whether he wants to say anything about it, but I should not have omitted mentioning it in my earlier message. And Phil Runkel has a chapter on language in “People as Living Things” (2003).

Martin

On 2017/06/6 10:00 AM, Martin Taylor wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.09.44]

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.06 12.00)]

Here’s an interesting New Scientist article about language. Any suggestions on how PCT fits in here?

–

Yes, lots. The working title of the book I am working on is “Powers of Perceptual Control: A PCT enquiry into Language, Culture, Power and Politics” (pun intended). The development of linguistic skills and the evolution of languages takes somewhere between 60 and 80 single-spaced pages in the current draft, maybe more or less. It’s hard to be precise, because language is so mixed up with culture and individual reorganization that allows the individual to grow up and interact effectively with other people.

I think I cover just about everything mentioned in that article, but it would be hard to extract only the language parts in a way that would make sense in a message of a length suited to e-mail, or to make an extract of precisely the relevant pages of the current book draft. The central idea was, however, covered in my CSG-93 presentation. Dag’s movie of that is available at <http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/Movie/TaylorCSG1993.mp4>. The relevant part starts 19 min 15 sec into the presentation.

Martin

6

[Bruce Nevin (2017.06.07.17:40 ET)]

Thanks, Martin.

I can’t post that chapter without permission from Warren and Alice. A related paper is at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311949885_Freeing_linguistics_from_computationalism

This is also at http://zelligharris.org/Nevin20160521.pdf

An earlier one, too long for that publisher: http://zelligharris.org/Embodied.grammar.pdf

It was translated to French, if that matters, but they didn’t like that either: http://zelligharris.org/Grammaire.incarnée.201612.pdf

In these articles, I argue that Bill’s notion of a Category level, which he introduced to account for language and for ‘symbols’ at higher levels of control, comprises only complex relationship perceptions. The New Scientist article talks about a ‘transfer’ of function and meaning. This depends upon associative memory, and suggests part of a mechanism for it.

There is a table (Table 1 p. 13 of the ‘computationalism’ version) and associated discussion that may be of interest. The stages of development of the perceptual hierarchy correlate in illuminating ways with the generally recognized stages in which children learn language (referred to in the field as language acquisition, probably tendentiously presuming Universal Grammar). The correlation suggests that there might be a finer differentiation of language stages that child language experts have not noticed: two stages of ‘gooing’ corresponding to Configurations and Transitions , and three stages of ‘canonical babbling’ building syllable-events into Relationships, Categories (more complex relationships), and Sequences. When the Program level begins to apply its purposes to them, words that have been passively learned start to be used in ways that adults recognize. (Since Intensities are established in utero, I wouldn’t expect two parts of the first ‘phonation’ stage.)

···

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.10.39]

I’m sorry. I should have mentioned Bruce Nevin’s forthcoming chapter in LCS IV. It’s up to him whether he wants to say anything about it, but I should not have omitted mentioning it in my earlier message. And Phil Runkel has a chapter on language in “People as Living Things” (2003).

Martin

On 2017/06/6 10:00 AM, Martin Taylor wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.09.44]

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.06 12.00)]

Here’s an interesting New Scientist article about language. Any suggestions on how PCT fits in here?

–

Yes, lots. The working title of the book I am working on is “Powers of Perceptual Control: A PCT enquiry into Language, Culture, Power and Politics” (pun intended). The development of linguistic skills and the evolution of languages takes somewhere between 60 and 80 single-spaced pages in the current draft, maybe more or less. It’s hard to be precise, because language is so mixed up with culture and individual reorganization that allows the individual to grow up and interact effectively with other people.

I think I cover just about everything mentioned in that article, but it would be hard to extract only the language parts in a way that would make sense in a message of a length suited to e-mail, or to make an extract of precisely the relevant pages of the current book draft. The central idea was, however, covered in my CSG-93 presentation. Dag’s movie of that is available at <http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/Movie/TaylorCSG1993.mp4>. The relevant part starts 19 min 15 sec into the presentation.

Martin

7

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.11 22.30)]

  Thanks Bruce they look very interesting and are on my to-read

pile.

···

**Regards,
Rupert
**

On 07/06/2017 23:13, Bruce Nevin wrote:

[Bruce Nevin (2017.06.07.17:40 ET)]

Thanks, Martin.

      I can't post that chapter without permission from Warren

and Alice. A related paper is at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311949885_Freeing_linguistics_from_computationalism

This is also at http://zelligharris.org/Nevin20160521.pdf

An earlier one, too long for that publisher: http://zelligharris.org/Embodied.grammar.pdf

      It was translated to French, if that matters, but they

didn’t like that either: http://zelligharris.org/Grammaire.incarnée.201612.pdf

      In these articles, I argue that Bill's notion of a Category

level, which he introduced to account for language and for
‘symbols’ at higher levels of control, comprises only complex
relationship perceptions. The New Scientist article
talks about a ‘transfer’ of function and meaning. This depends
upon associative memory, and suggests part of a mechanism for
it.

        There is a table (Table 1 p. 13 of the 'computationalism'

version) and associated discussion that may be of interest.
The stages of development of the perceptual hierarchy
correlate in illuminating ways with the generally recognized
stages in which children learn language (referred to in the
field as language acquisition, probably tendentiously
presuming Universal Grammar). The correlation suggests that
there might be a finer differentiation of language stages
that child language experts have not noticed: two stages of
‘gooing’ corresponding to Configurations and Transitions ,
and three stages of ‘canonical babbling’ building
syllable-events into Relationships, Categories (more complex
relationships), and Sequences. When the Program level begins
to apply its purposes to them, words that have been
passively learned start to be used in ways that adults
recognize. (Since Intensities are established in utero, I
wouldn’t expect two parts of the first ‘phonation’ stage.)

/Bruce

      On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Martin

Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
wrote:

        [Martin

Taylor 2017.06.06.10.39]

        I'm sorry. I should have mentioned Bruce Nevin's forthcoming

chapter in LCS IV. It’s up to him whether he wants to say
anything about it, but I should not have omitted mentioning
it in my earlier message. And Phil Runkel has a chapter on
language in “People as Living Things” (2003).

            Martin






            On 2017/06/6 10:00 AM, Martin Taylor wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.09.44]

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.06 12.00)]

                Here's an interesting New Scientist article about

language. Any suggestions on how PCT fits in here?

                --

              Yes, lots. The working title of the book I am working

on is “Powers of Perceptual Control: A PCT enquiry
into Language, Culture, Power and Politics” (pun
intended). The development of linguistic skills and
the evolution of languages takes somewhere between 60
and 80 single-spaced pages in the current draft, maybe
more or less. It’s hard to be precise, because
language is so mixed up with culture and individual
reorganization that allows the individual to grow up
and interact effectively with other people.

              I think I cover just about everything mentioned in

that article, but it would be hard to extract only the
language parts in a way that would make sense in a
message of a length suited to e-mail, or to make an
extract of precisely the relevant pages of the current
book draft. The central idea was, however, covered in
my CSG-93 presentation. Dag’s movie of that is
available at <http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/Movie/TaylorCSG1993.mp4 >.
The relevant part starts 19 min 15 sec into the
presentation.

              Martin
8

Thanks, Rupert.

I’ve asked Alice if I can give the LCS IV chapter to another person on CSG-net. (Warren deferred the decision to her, as she is the publisher.) If she does say yes, that permission might extend to you. But these several documents have a considerable intersection of subject matter, although they are separately written and have different emphases, audience assumptions, etc.

···

On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com wrote:

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.11 22.30)]

  Thanks Bruce they look very interesting and are on my to-read

pile.

**Regards,
Rupert
**

On 07/06/2017 23:13, Bruce Nevin wrote:

[Bruce Nevin (2017.06.07.17:40 ET)]

Thanks, Martin.

      I can't post that chapter without permission from Warren

and Alice. A related paper is at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311949885_Freeing_linguistics_from_computationalism

This is also at http://zelligharris.org/Nevin20160521.pdf

An earlier one, too long for that publisher: http://zelligharris.org/Embodied.grammar.pdf

      It was translated to French, if that matters, but they

didn’t like that either: http://zelligharris.org/Grammaire.incarnée.201612.pdf

      In these articles, I argue that Bill's notion of a Category

level, which he introduced to account for language and for
‘symbols’ at higher levels of control, comprises only complex
relationship perceptions. The New Scientist article
talks about a ‘transfer’ of function and meaning. This depends
upon associative memory, and suggests part of a mechanism for
it.

        There is a table (Table 1 p. 13 of the 'computationalism'

version) and associated discussion that may be of interest.
The stages of development of the perceptual hierarchy
correlate in illuminating ways with the generally recognized
stages in which children learn language (referred to in the
field as language acquisition, probably tendentiously
presuming Universal Grammar). The correlation suggests that
there might be a finer differentiation of language stages
that child language experts have not noticed: two stages of
‘gooing’ corresponding to Configurations and Transitions ,
and three stages of ‘canonical babbling’ building
syllable-events into Relationships, Categories (more complex
relationships), and Sequences. When the Program level begins
to apply its purposes to them, words that have been
passively learned start to be used in ways that adults
recognize. (Since Intensities are established in utero, I
wouldn’t expect two parts of the first ‘phonation’ stage.)

/Bruce

      On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Martin

Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
wrote:

        [Martin

Taylor 2017.06.06.10.39]

        I'm sorry. I should have mentioned Bruce Nevin's forthcoming

chapter in LCS IV. It’s up to him whether he wants to say
anything about it, but I should not have omitted mentioning
it in my earlier message. And Phil Runkel has a chapter on
language in “People as Living Things” (2003).

            Martin






            On 2017/06/6 10:00 AM, Martin Taylor wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2017.06.06.09.44]

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.06 12.00)]

                Here's an interesting New Scientist article about

language. Any suggestions on how PCT fits in here?

                --

              Yes, lots. The working title of the book I am working

on is “Powers of Perceptual Control: A PCT enquiry
into Language, Culture, Power and Politics” (pun
intended). The development of linguistic skills and
the evolution of languages takes somewhere between 60
and 80 single-spaced pages in the current draft, maybe
more or less. It’s hard to be precise, because
language is so mixed up with culture and individual
reorganization that allows the individual to grow up
and interact effectively with other people.

              I think I cover just about everything mentioned in

that article, but it would be hard to extract only the
language parts in a way that would make sense in a
message of a length suited to e-mail, or to make an
extract of precisely the relevant pages of the current
book draft. The central idea was, however, covered in
my CSG-93 presentation. Dag’s movie of that is
available at <http://www.mmtaylor.net/PCT/Movie/TaylorCSG1993.mp4 >.
The relevant part starts 19 min 15 sec into the
presentation.

              Martin