PCT and Me.

CSGnet Archive CSG2008
1

(Gavin Ritz 2008.04.19.14.41NZT)

Rick

This is my frank response.

This is a side thread of the management one
which I responded too.

Rick (you were a professor of psychology plus I have read your
rendition of psychological theories) so you have an inside running on the theories
and their applications or non applications as the case may be.

First of all I started out knowing nothing
about psychology so I had no conceived ideas of its theory and practice. So these
input-output concepts meant absolutely nothing to me and still do.

I sought out a psychologist 20 years ago
to help me with my severe issues (yes I came from an extremely dysfunctional
family). My life was destructing before me and my own family was going to
destruct. Being an engineer this all seemed like a load of hoopla to me. I’m
not even sure why I persisted because the longer I stayed in therapy (5 years) the
worse my emotional state became. I had an extremely caring and kind psychologist.
Eventually I landed up with a psychologist and a psychiatrist. And a mountain
of anti-depressants which made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Yes I
was diagnosed with a full blown depression. (A family thing by the way going
back many generations). A very astute diagnosis of course, (I could have just said
that it was that). After all I was having it. It’s an interesting experience.

I would add there is no time for reflection in this state, that came
afterwards and eventually ended up me developing a psychometric tool from the experience.
I got stuck in to object relations theory and all the other psychology stuff. I
wanted to try understand this stuff. Let me share it was what the theories (if one can call them
that) didn’t say that I developed my model.

Now first of all let me say it now that I
have serious doubts that this stuff (mental problems) actually resides in the brain, and perception
is anything but nice hierarchical levels residing in this part of the body. (Those
few inches between the ears).

I say this above because I spent years
trying to work this out (just what happened and what was going on), I spent years
reading Kohut’s, Kernbergs, Winnicott, Bowlby’s models and a dozen
others probably not worth mentioning. I have stopped this quest some years ago
now preferring more mundane stuff like complexity theory.

The depression was ended with a breathing
exercise (F…. yes). Which focused on my body parts. The actual blockage
(if one can call it that) was in my stomach area. I know this for a fact
because that was where the massive pain was (it was there to be felt no
mistaking that). The release of tensions in this area of the body seemed to re-organize
entirely how my body felt both physically and mentally.

Yes I know all of you are now going to
have your psychological inputs from your other lives as psychologists and your
new PCT life.

Let me share with you right away both my psychologist
(I still think he did a great caring job and I probably would have never uncovered
some very dark stuff without it) and psychiatrist, now thought I was really
going off the deep end. I easily convinced them I was fine, stopped my
pills and walked away from therapy. (I never did go back)

I became a different person with an entirely
changed outlook, different goals, thoughts and ideas. ( I changed careers and
went into human resources) I would regard myself as extremely fortunate to come
out alive from that situation. I spent the next ten years trying to understand
this experience and the truth of the matter is I have absolutely no idea of how
things came to be inside me.

But I did uncover something very golden

  • Nothing is as it seems.
  • Tensions rule
  •  Psychological models are at
    best very shaky
  •  Human created theories about
    the mind are at best very poor models of what’s going on inside of
    us.
  •  There is a huge vast unknown
    part of “me in this universe” and this universe which I do not
    understand at all and probably never will.

The model that I developed is a small part
reflection of my experience around the concept of tension and directly related to
a key psychological issue that I had, not for discussion here. This key issue reflects
all of us, I only know now because I have profiled thousands of people. And I
don’t care if anyone thinks it’s nuts or not a theory.

I have been trying hard to reconcile PCT
to my experience because that’s how I do things; I’m not saying by
any stretch of the imagination that PCT is bunkum. But the biggest weakness it
suffers from is the hierarchical stuff, plus there is almost no place for
tensions besides in the “error”. There just seems like some missing
too me. Of course I have not nearly spent enough time on PCT. On the other
side there is something that feels very sound about PCT and that is the perceptual
concept.

I have had many people trying to minimize
my experiences over the years including a psychiatrist friend, he was on pills
and I’m not, I felt great inside and he felt like shit and he was telling
me about the fancy models he uses to enhance others lives. And he couldn’t
get his own life together. What more could I say, silence was the appropriate response.

Regards

Gavin

···

from my experience.

2

[From Rick Marken (2008.04.19.0840)]

Gavin Ritz (2008.04.19.14.41NZT)

Rick

This is my frank response.

Hi Gavin

I don't know to what of mine this is a response but I found your
comment very heartfelt and moving. I myself have had only minor
encounters with psychological problems in my life -- I've been lucky
-- but I have had them and I know it's not pleasant and, as far as I'm
concerned. whatever works to help you feel better (as long as it
doesn't hurt other people) is fine with me. My own interest in PCT is
almost exclusively scientific; I find most efforts at application
rather boring (although I really like Tim Carey's book describing his
work on MOL). So I think were working in different universes. If PCT
doesn't make any sense in your universe then that's finer with me.
Just take care of yourself and enjoy life.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

3

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.20.0552 MDT)]

Now first of all let
me say it now that I have serious doubts that this stuff (mental
problems) actually resides in the brain, and perception is anything but
nice hierarchical levels residing in this part of the body. (Those few
inches between the ears).
I say this above because I spent
years trying to work this out (just what happened and what was going on),
I spent years reading Kohut�s, Kernbergs, Winnicott, Bowlby�s models and
a dozen others probably not worth mentioning. I have stopped this quest
some years ago now preferring more mundane stuff like complexity
theory.

The depression was ended with a breathing exercise (F�. yes). Which
focused on my body parts. The actual blockage (if one can call it that)
was in my stomach area. I know this for a fact because that was where the
massive pain was (it was there to be felt no mistaking that). The release
of tensions in this area of the body seemed to re-organize entirely how
my body felt both physically and mentally.

My own doubts on this subject come from realizing that “the
brain” is another set of constructs in – for lack of a better term
– my brain. It’s just like “the external world”, which exists
in a place I call – again for lack of a better term – the
external world. The way this ends up for me is that I have no problems in
thinking that perceptions, and solutions, exist in the brain which is in
my head, and that perceptions, which I experience, are representations of
the external world, which I do not experience. I simply omit all those
quotation marks (such as “brain” or “my head”) since
they apply to just about everything that makes up the content of
consciousness. In the background there is always this skeptical awareness
that I am constructing all these stories to make sense of my experiences.
I just try not to construct too hastily or carelessly.

I’d say that what you experienced was the effect of reorganization.
Intrinsic error drives reorganization; reorganization eventually reduces
intrinsic error.

For me, the intense childhood depression came to an end only slowly, as I
realized that these were episodes that had a beginning, a middle, and an
end, particularly an end. It felt very physical to me, too, though it was
hard to sort out the causes and the effects and I’m still not sure which
was which. I learned to lie down on the sofa and wait, not trying to do
anything much, hanging on to the idea that this would last a while
longer, and then lift. I’m sure there are trendy names for my condition,
and also that knowing them would have been of absolutely no help. I also
learned early that other people’s attempts to comfort me made them feel
better, but had no effect on what I was going through. When I ended up in
dianetics right after college, it was because I was still looking for a
way to deal with those lingering states of body-mind. I probably found
the way during the two years in dianetics (or by getting another two
years older), and then realized that whatever did the trick happened in
me and in present time. That’s when I left – concurrently with
discovering cybernetics, which was a little embarrassing because I
wondered if I was a sucker for anything that ended in -etics.

I became a different
person with an entirely changed outlook, different goals, thoughts and
ideas. ( I changed careers and went into human resources) I would regard
myself as extremely fortunate to come out alive from that situation. I
spent the next ten years trying to understand this experience and the
truth of the matter is I have absolutely no idea of how things came to be
inside me.
But I did uncover something very
golden from my experience.

  • Nothing is as it seems.

Well, let’s keep working at that. PCT is one of my attempts, and MOL is
another. In the immediate background is my bullshit detector which I have
learned to apply to my own ideas as well as those of others.

  • Tensions
    rule

  • Psychological
    models are at best very shaky

  • Human created
    theories about the mind are at best very poor models of what�s going on
    inside of us.

  • The model that I developed is a
    small part reflection of my experience around the concept of tension and
    directly related to a key psychological issue that I had, not for
    discussion here. This key issue reflects all of us, I only know now
    because I have profiled thousands of people. And I don�t care if anyone
    thinks it�s nuts or not a theory.
    I have been trying hard to
    reconcile PCT to my experience because that�s how I do things; I�m not
    saying by any stretch of the imagination that PCT is bunkum. But the
    biggest weakness it suffers from is the hierarchical stuff, plus there is
    almost no place for tensions besides in the �error�. There just seems
    like some missing too me. Of course I have not nearly spent enough time
    on PCT. On the other side there is something that feels very sound about
    PCT and that is the perceptual concept.
    I have had many people trying to
    minimize my experiences over the years including a psychiatrist friend,
    he was on pills and I�m not, I felt great inside and he felt like shit
    and he was telling me about the fancy models he uses to enhance others
    lives. And he couldn�t get his own life together. What more could I say,
    silence was the appropriate response.
    There is a huge
    vast unknown part of �me in this universe� and this universe which I do
    not understand at all and probably never will.
    No problem with any of those.

    Attaboy. Me, either. For “tension” read “conflict”,
    which means that “you” are stopping your “self.”
    Tension between people boils down to tension within each person. Tension
    within a person is inner conflict. Right? Read about MOL with that
    in mind, and try the sections in Making Sense of Behavior about
    conflict.

    I am walking down the street. Why am I doing that? To get to the store.
    Why get to the store? To work there. Why work there? To make money. Why
    make money? To make a living. Why make a living? To stay alive, to have
    self respect, to support my family, to …

    That’s basically how the hierarchy works. I’ve just tried to identify the
    basic elements at various levels that I’ve noticed in my own experiences.
    And of course, control theory made it possible to figure out how that
    sort of arrangement could possible work. Control theory is the only way
    we have to understand systems in which causation runs in a circle. Given
    that there is one level of control systems in the spinal motor systems,
    we have to ask how systems higher in the brain could act while those
    control systems are in the way. The answer is, by adjusting their
    reference signals, not by acting directly on the muscles. Start out that
    way and you end up with the hierarchy. That’s how I got there.

    Poor guy. He probably really wanted to change places with you. I tried a
    psychoanalyst once, partly out of curiosity and partly (at $90 per hour
    in 1952) to see if it would help. The guy’s idea of therapy was to attack
    everything you said. About a year later I came across his name in a
    newspaper story. One of his clients had killed him with a gun. Quite
    understandable, I thought.

    But even he helped, because I could see my reactions to him and they
    taught me things about myself that I needed to notice.

    One does, however, get very bored with saying “I” all the time.
    I guess that’s how you can tell that therapy is over.

    Best,

    Bill P.