PCT and the language used

CSGnet Archive CSG2001
1

Richard Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.15.0830)]

from Ray 2001.11.16.1220CST Aust

Thanks Rick for explaining things re descriptions in a clear, and helpful to me,
way.

I struggled with expressing myself with regard to the hard and easy part. In no
way did I mean nor do I think that what you have done and modelled was easy. I
think I was trying to say was that I am asking questions that are hard to answer
because a lot of other questions and answers, a lot of detail is missed out. I
really enjoy and find it helpful when you and others are able to clarify and
point out details that a lot of others just gloss over.
I think the work you have done with regards to catching fly balls etc. was mind
stretching for me just to read about it.
I apologise if you took umbridge at my clumsy way of writing about things. I much
prefer it when you ask directing questions that help me to be clearer and to
think further about that which I am saying.
Lately the discussion has been about terrorism. How is terrorism to be seen
through perceptual control glasses? When answering this and some of those other
questions that have arisen I was looking to grow in my understanding of others in
relation to what is it that people are controlling for that brings about their
own death and the deaths of others. What is it that has them disrupt .....others?

What I see is brutal, powerful and life wrecking. If I talk about it this way, I
don't think my understanding grows. If I talk about in PCT terms it might.
What would be some of the questions you would ask to help understanding of this
kind of phenomenon? What were the questions some of the others in this group
asked to help their understandings grow or to help them to reorganise?
One question I asked was do people (including myself here of course) talk drivel,
digress, etc... to help give them time to reorganise?
How do I now live when I know that there are people who are willing and able to
blow up planes to help them control for something I am not really sure of? How do
I (we) now live when we have to come to terms with people's 'natures', ability to
create disturbances that end life?
To use the analogy of the sunset, how are we now to live knowing that it is not
the sun going down but the earth turning? And knowing that the earth is turning
has me focus on different things, one being that it might spin faster and I could
fall off.
Maybe the group has had enough of this kind of thinking. What has it been
controlling for then by digressing into all of these other areas that we have
touched on? What has it been controlling for by testing out people's buttons?
Have people been trying to understand control or is it really not hard to
understand control, just hard to understand why and for what people control?
Is there some hope in knowing that the world is more accurately and
scientifically undertood if we use 'perceptual control glasses'?
A bit of a ramble, but that is where I am at the moment. Does anyone have
something to say that might help?
Regards,
Ray

2

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.15.2020)]

Ray &Merry Bennett wrote:

I struggled with expressing myself with regard to the hard and easy part.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry I took it the wrong way and said
those silly things myself.

Lately the discussion has been about terrorism. How is terrorism
to be seen through perceptual control glasses?

Terrorism is an approach to getting some perceptual variable -- usually
an aspect of the behavior of some much stronger agent -- into some
desired state. For example, the Islamic terrorists want Western
influences (people, books, ideas, etc.) out of what they consider to be
Moslem territory. They can't push these influences out by force because
they don't have the military resources. So they do horrendous, random
acts of violence against Westerners in the hope that the West will leave
the Moslem world alone in order to avoid further horror. Terrorism
(like everything else people do) is just an attempt to get or maintain
control of some perceptions.

What I see is brutal, powerful and life wrecking. If I talk about
it this way, I don't think my understanding grows. If I talk about
in PCT terms it might.

Terrorism is still brutal, powerful and life wrecking when seen through
PCT glasses. The only understanding you get is that it is done for a
purpose. It's done because there is a big difference between what the
terrorists perceive (Western influence in the Moslem world) and what is
wanted (a pure Moslem world). It's as simple as that. But that
difference -- that error signal -- can drive some pretty ugly outputs.

How do I now live when I know that there are people who are willing
and able to blow up planes to help them control for something I am not
really sure of?

I know how you are feeling. I've been feeling that way for a while,
though I'm getting a little better. I don't know the answer to your
question. But look at it this way; would you really feel any better
about it if you _were_ sure of what the terrorists were controlling for?
I don't think so. Everyone knows one of the things Hitler was
controlling for -- a Jew free world. But knowing this doesn't make it
any easier for me to live in a world that produces such people. The
world has had, does have and will always have people in it who will
adopt some pretty ugly goals (and/or do ugly things to achieve
reasonable goals). That's just the way it is. PCT will not make such
people go away nor will it make it easier to live in a world with such
people.

How do I (we) now live when we have to come to terms with people's 'natures',
ability to create disturbances that end life?

It's very hard. But I think that a great deal of horrific behavior can
be eliminated by trying to eliminate want and ignorance. People often
(but not always) adopt horrible goals because they can't get what they
want because they don't have the means (want) or they don't know the
means (ignorance).

Is there some hope in knowing that the world is more accurately and
scientifically undertood if we use 'perceptual control glasses'?

A little, maybe. But I don't think PCT is really something that can help
you feel better about life. It's just a model of the way behavior works.
It makes you feel better only if understanding things makes you feel
better. I think PCT does suggest some ways we might "improve" things
like our social relationships and organizations and even ourselves. But
it's not the road to utopia. Or maybe it is, if there can be a road to a
destination that can't actually exist.

Best regards

Rick

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Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313